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eamad mazouri · Mar 13, 2004, 02:25 pm

A soccer game in Kurdish city of Qamishlo-North East of Syria- turned violent and led to the massacre of many Kurds who took to the streets to protest the act of the security forces.
http://www.kurdnet.net/www.kdp.info/news/n...intNewsNr=11154

An appeal has been issued. Kurdish cities and towns are under siege by Syrian army and seciruty forces.
http://www.kurdnet.net/www.kdp.info/news/n...intNewsNr=11146

Riots are expanding to other towns.
http://www.kurdnet.net/www.kdp.info/news/n...intNewsNr=11145

Mia · Mar 13, 2004, 04:17 pm

Check some unbiased sources. Syria is the only middle-east country that treats the Kurds fairly. Go to Yahoo or CNN for a different telling of this incident.

Zeebadee · Mar 14, 2004, 01:37 am

Someone's always being massacred somewhere. Shall the kneejerk response always be to send U.S. troops to fix the problem?

Mia · Mar 14, 2004, 02:00 am

google "syria kurds" and read reports from several different sources.

Weed out the obviously-biased Israeli and Kurdish sites and see what kind of "massacre" is (not) going on.

eamad mazouri · Mar 14, 2004, 05:27 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
Check some unbiased sources. Syria is the only middle-east country that treats the Kurds fairly. Go to Yahoo or CNN for a different telling of this incident.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I don't know about Israeli sites. But Iknow my own sources. So far 14 people were killed, almost all of them Kurds.Most of them by Syrian security forces after they left the stadium. Hundreds are wounded and are not seeking treatment at hospitals in fear being detained.
You really believe that Syria is treating Kurds fairly. You must have extra ordinary means of measuring fairness.
Kurds in Syria are not mentioned in constititon or any law for that matter.Their very existence id officially denied. They are called immigrants. Out of 2 million Kurds in Syria , over 200,000 of them are stripped of citizenship.They are not allowed into public schools or to hold public jobs.
The "Arab Belt" probably you never heard of it. It is also called the "Green Belt" I believe it was in late 60s after the Baath came to power.They stripped Kurds of their most fertile land and deported them, and gave the land to Arabs.
Kurds in Syria are denied their basic human rights and are enslaved.
Maybe this is fairness in your view.

eamad mazouri · Mar 14, 2004, 05:30 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Zeebadee,)
Someone's always being massacred somewhere. Shall the kneejerk response always be to send U.S. troops to fix the problem?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I think you need to read the details of what happened before you say that.Kurds have became outcast in Middle East because of their collaboration with US and coalition. If US withdraw-God forbid- they might subjected to total annihilation by these regimes.

eamad mazouri · Mar 14, 2004, 05:32 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
google "syria kurds" and read reports from several different sources.

Weed out the obviously-biased Israeli and Kurdish sites and see what kind of "massacre" is (not) going on.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Why don't you tell us youe version of what happened.I read all kind of sources other than Syrian official version, I hope your not meaning it by independent sources.

Mia · Mar 14, 2004, 09:28 pm

The stories from mainstream news are different than from Israeli and Kurdish sites. No, I did not mean Syrian official version.

Mia · Mar 14, 2004, 09:43 pm

Kurdish problems started with the US Coalition? Weird, I thought I heard about it quite a long time before Iraq.

2) Are you from Syria? I have a friend who is Kurdish from Syria. Not all "middle eastern" countries do everything the same.

Can you back up you claim that in that country they are enslaved?

Mia · Mar 15, 2004, 04:27 am

DAMASCUS, March 12 (Reuters) - Three children were killed and more than 100 people injured in a stampede on Friday after fighting broke out at a premier league football match in the northeast Syrian town of Kameshli, witnesses said.

State-run Syrian Radio reported the deaths as it began live coverage of the match, which was quickly called off.

Police surrounded the stadium and fired shots in the air, but it was not clear whether they had been able to stop the fighting. Officials were not immediately available for comment.

Witnesses said there were between 5,000 and 7,000 spectators at the match between Kameshli and nearby Deir al-Zour.

Visiting fans threw sticks and stones at the Kameshli supporters, witnesses said. "We had nothing to defend ourselves with because we were not expecting this, so we had to run and there was a stampede," one witness said.

One witness said visiting fans also shouted slogans that offended Syrian Kurdish supporters of Kameshli, a town near the Iraqi border that has a large Syrian Kurdish population.

Hospital sources told Reuters they could not confirm any deaths but more than 100 injured people had been brought in, including an 11-year-old boy with bullet wounds in the stomach.

eamad mazouri · Mar 16, 2004, 12:50 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
The stories from mainstream news are different than from Israeli and Kurdish sites. No, I did not mean Syrian official version.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Good. Why don't you try this link.
http://hosting.afp.com/clients/ikp/english/news/

eamad mazouri · Mar 16, 2004, 12:58 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
Kurdish problems started with the US Coalition? Weird, I thought I heard about it quite a long time before Iraq.

2) Are you from Syria? I have a friend who is Kurdish from Syria. Not all "middle eastern" countries do everything the same.

Can you back up you claim that in that country they are enslaved?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I never saidthe Kurdish problem started with US Coalition. I know as well as you do the origin of Kurdish problem. I hope you are not blaming Kurds for defending their very existence.
To answer your question I am not from Syria, but Iam Kurdish. Do you mean Syria treat Kurds differently?
It depend on how do you define enslavenment. as a metaphore,If you are living on your ancestral land, your land is taken away from you and given to others, you deprived of citizenship and all the rights that follow,and you are living in constant fear to be arrested imprisoned or killed,I believe i can call that enslavenment.

Mia · Mar 16, 2004, 03:09 am

But you're not describing the majority of Kurds in Syria when you say that. (PS - socialists take land from everyone). I know Kurds have a hard time - but from the person who I know it is not like what you say in Syria, at least. I couldn't speak about anywhere else.

He is Kurdish from Syria and so is his wife and so are their families who still live there today.

So obviously I'm going to consider him a credible source.

There may be some who do not have citizenship rights - I've read from between 65,000 and 200,000.

I am not saying that is right or wrong - I don't know the situation - but I know that there are 2,000,000 Kurds in Syria so if is true that 10% are treated this way, at least be accurate and not act like all two million are in this boat.

eamad mazouri · Mar 16, 2004, 03:27 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
But you're not describing the majority of Kurds in Syria when you say that. (PS - socialists take land from everyone). I know Kurds have a hard time - but from the person who I know it is not like what you say in Syria, at least. I couldn't speak about anywhere else.

He is Kurdish from Syria and so is his wife and so are their families who still live there today.

So obviously I'm going to consider him a credible source.

There may be some who do not have citizenship rights - I've read from between 65,000 and 200,000.

I am not saying that is right or wrong - I don't know the situation - but I know that there are 2,000,000 Kurds in Syria so if is true that 10% are treated this way, at least be accurate and not act like all two million are in this boat.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Look Mia, you seem like a reasonable person, and I enjoy talking to reasonable ones regardless of our conflicting views.
The figures you provided are very fair. The issue of Kurdish land taken away had nothing to do with socialism. I just read this morning the name of the Arab tribes they were broght to the Kurdish areas, It was something like Ghamer tribes whose land was flooded by Euphrate dam. Kurds were evicted and stripped off their land. Why cannot you see this as an Arabization act? You know Kurdistan is geographically united only politically divided. The bordertriangle with Turkey and Iraq is Kurdish.
I don't know about your friends, uptil end of the 50s major Kurdish families were the backbone of Syrian aristocracy .After Baath most of them were Arabize. I , on the other hand have many Syrian Kurdish friends in Russia and Sweden who have escaped persecution and they tell me horrible stories of their misery.
It seems the riots have expanded to include Afrin.And there are more victimes and too many arrests.
http://www.kurdnet.net/www.kdp.info/news/n...intNewsNr=11230

Mia · Mar 16, 2004, 08:24 pm

Actually, I know next to nothing about Kurds. It came up a lot in the lead-up to the Iraq war. "The Kurds" were brought up over and over by middle-eastern nations. The Kurds this the Kurds that.

Who are these poor Kurds and why does everyone want to keep them down? was my question.

I am only responding to your post because there are some things about Syria I do know, and I specifically got a little info on the Kurdish situation THERE.

While I undertand completely you want to do whatever you can to bring light to your cause, I do not think it is fair, nor helpful to your cause, to exaggerate grossly.

And what I know from very reliable people conflicts with statements like

"The Kurds (implying all 2,000,000) are not citizens and cannot go to school or hospital, etc..."

"hundreds were killed, mostly by Syrian officials"

Additionally, can the actions taken before the current party took control (in what, the 70's?) be held against the current government?

As far as the current situation....as I said, both mainstream news and what people inside Syria tell me is different from Kurdish or Israeli sites.

So, I am not going to take a postion on it, only point out there is more than one side to the story.

I reccommend always to everyone that if you are going to form an opinion on something, at least look at it from all sides first.

eamad mazouri · Mar 16, 2004, 11:30 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
Actually, I know next to nothing about Kurds. It came up a lot in the lead-up to the Iraq war. "The Kurds" were brought up over and over by middle-eastern nations. The Kurds this the Kurds that.

Who are these poor Kurds and why does everyone want to keep them down? was my question.

I am only responding to your post because there are some things about Syria I do know, and I specifically got a little info on the Kurdish situation THERE.

While I undertand completely you want to do whatever you can to bring light to your cause, I do not think it is fair, nor helpful to your cause, to exaggerate grossly.

And what I know from very reliable people conflicts with statements like

"The Kurds (implying all 2,000,000) are not citizens and cannot go to school or hospital, etc..."

"hundreds were killed, mostly by Syrian officials"

Additionally, can the actions taken before the current party took control (in what, the 70's?) be held against the current government?

As far as the current situation....as I said, both mainstream news and what people inside Syria tell me is different from Kurdish or Israeli sites.

So, I am not going to take a postion on it, only point out there is more than one side to the story.

I reccommend always to everyone that if you are going to form an opinion on something, at least look at it from all sides first.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I assume you know too many Syrians-that is Arab Syrians- and perhaps one Kurdish family.
If you know next to nothing about Kurds, then it would unfair of you to pass judgement on them, especially concerning the latest incident.Also you would only defending Syria.Isincerely would like to hear about your info on Syria, and whatever you know about Kurds.I am beginning to suspect your info on Kurds are one sided.
If you are interested I can tell alot about Kurds and their plight.You can ask me any question, I would glad to respond to it as objective as I can. If there is one nation in Middle East who is tolerant is Kurdish nation who has been divided, discriminated against and never himself made any aggression against any other nation.Under worst circumstances they have refused to resort to terrorist acts,despite the fact that those governments were terrorizing Kurdish civilians all the time.
I cited various sources, majority of which were Kurdish who has until now telephone contact with Kurds inside Syria.Of course they vary on the number of casualties.In a country like Syria you will never get the right number.Many of the wounded didn't seek treatment fearing they would be detained.Today's news are estimating the number of arrested at 6000 Kurds.
The current government is a continuation of previous ones. It is the Baath party and its policies that deny the very existence of Kurds. Find one Syrian law, not only the constitution, but any law that mention the word "Kurd" or in any form or shape recognize Kurds.
The Arab Belt was enforced in 1962. If the current government is just, it would return the land to the Kurds and compensate Arabs for their losses and it would grant those who have been denied before the Syrian citizenship.
I cannot agree more on your last statement.
I personally don't hate anybody, and I am against all kinds of violence. But I like to know whyare against Kurdish and Israeli sources.
Here are some links with much info on Syrian Kurds, I hope you find them interesting.
http://hrw.org/reports/1996/Syria.htm
http://www.10452lccc.com/neal/hitti29.5.03.htm
http://international-friends-of-kurdistan....n_kurdistan.htm
http://www.american.edu/cgp/pdf/dunn.pdf
http://www.kurd.org/kcrf/SyriaKCRF.html

Mia · Mar 17, 2004, 01:51 am

I am not passing judgement on anyone - and I am not biased in favor of Syria that I will just defend it.

But if I see something that seems innacurate, yes I am going to say something.

I don't pretend to know a lot even about Kurds in Syria, just what I said - that it is not correct to imply that the whole population is "enslaved" "under seige" and "not able to go to school, hospital, travel..." when I know that the Kurdish Syrian I know has a law degree over there, his wife has a government job, they both travel back and forth at will, their families travel to see them, and they say there is no massacre and no one is under seige.

I admitted I do not know about the estimated 65,000-200,000 who have been denied citizenship. I know Syria is very strict on citizenship and that Kurds aren't the only ones this affects.

I am not trying to present a different, one-sided version. I only know enough to refute the other end somewhat. In fact, I am specifically NOT writing what some Syrians say about "their side" as it seems biased and of no use.

I have a problem with any pro-anything site as views and "information" are always biased.

In the particular case at hand, I would not believe official Syrian site or official Kurdish site. (or Israeli as they are anti-anything-arab).

I took from news from all sources and people who actually live there.

eamad mazouri · Mar 17, 2004, 02:07 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
I am not passing judgement on anyone - and I am not biased in favor of Syria that I will just defend it.

But if I see something that seems innacurate, yes I am going to say something.

I don't pretend to know a lot even about Kurds in Syria, just what I said - that it is not correct to imply that the whole population is "enslaved" "under seige" and "not able to go to school, hospital, travel..." when I know that the Kurdish Syrian I know has a law degree over there, his wife has a government job, they both travel back and forth at will, their families travel to see them, and they say there is no massacre and no one is under seige.

I admitted I do not know about the estimated 65,000-200,000 who have been denied citizenship. I know Syria is very strict on citizenship and that Kurds aren't the only ones this affects.

I am not trying to present a different, one-sided version. I only know enough to refute the other end somewhat. In fact, I am specifically NOT writing what some Syrians say about "their side" as it seems biased and of no use.

I have a problem with any pro-anything site as views and "information" are always biased.

In the particular case at hand, I would not believe official Syrian site or official Kurdish site. (or Israeli as they are anti-anything-arab).

I took from news from all sources and people who actually live there.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Let's put everything else to aside, and just focus on the portion of Kurds who do not have citizenship.Do you think a democratic government would deny its people something basic as citizenship? Or is it right for any government to do that?
Second the Arab Belt. I hope you read about that. Do you think there is any chance current Syrian government would remedy that, I mean return the land to Kurds again. You see we Kurds have long experiance with Arabization. Just like Scotts-Mountain People- Whenever the attacks on them became unbearable, the only refugethey had was to seek shelter in rugged mountains which left our plain land open to them to be Arabized. This happened in Iraq as well as in Syria, Turkey and Iran. I believe it is in the best interests of Syria to recognize Kurds and their rights and forget about past atrocities and injustices. That is how a new democratic, peaceful and prosperous Syria can be build.

Mia · Mar 17, 2004, 03:53 pm

I can't agree or disagree with any of that. As I tried to explain, this is not a situation I am familiar enough with to discuss.

I only wanted to correct the idea that Kurds are being massacred and treated in Syria as they are in Turkey or like they are being tormented as they were in Iraq.

From the small amount that I have read it seems Kurds have a raw deal overall and I intend to learn more.

eamad mazouri · Mar 17, 2004, 10:39 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
I can't agree or disagree with any of that. As I tried to explain, this is not a situation I am familiar enough with to discuss.

I only wanted to correct the idea that Kurds are being massacred and treated in Syria as they are in Turkey or like they are being tormented as they were in Iraq.

From the small amount that I have read it seems Kurds have a raw deal overall and I intend to learn more.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Thank Mia for aknowledging the fact that Kurds do have a raw deal.Like I said I will be delighted to answer any question you have regarding Kurds and their issue in any part of Kurdistan as much as I can. And I will let you know when I can't.
In the meantime why don't check out the news about more clashes between Kurds and Syrian authorities that claimed more victims.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A8E...04781763AE2.htm
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=U...tm&q=&scoring=d

Mar 13, 2004, 04:17 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Check some unbiased sources. Syria is the only middle-east country that treats the Kurds fairly. Go to Yahoo or CNN for a different telling of this incident. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 14, 2004, 01:37 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Zeebadee Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,701	Someone's always being massacred somewhere. Shall the kneejerk response always be to send U.S. troops to fix the problem? "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied." - Leonard Cohen

Mar 14, 2004, 02:00 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	google "syria kurds" and read reports from several different sources. Weed out the obviously-biased Israeli and Kurdish sites and see what kind of "massacre" is (not) going on. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 14, 2004, 05:27 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
eamad mazouri Molten Ash Posts: 64	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) Check some unbiased sources. Syria is the only middle-east country that treats the Kurds fairly. Go to Yahoo or CNN for a different telling of this incident.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I don't know about Israeli sites. But Iknow my own sources. So far 14 people were killed, almost all of them Kurds.Most of them by Syrian security forces after they left the stadium. Hundreds are wounded and are not seeking treatment at hospitals in fear being detained. You really believe that Syria is treating Kurds fairly. You must have extra ordinary means of measuring fairness. Kurds in Syria are not mentioned in constititon or any law for that matter.Their very existence id officially denied. They are called immigrants. Out of 2 million Kurds in Syria , over 200,000 of them are stripped of citizenship.They are not allowed into public schools or to hold public jobs. The "Arab Belt" probably you never heard of it. It is also called the "Green Belt" I believe it was in late 60s after the Baath came to power.They stripped Kurds of their most fertile land and deported them, and gave the land to Arabs. Kurds in Syria are denied their basic human rights and are enslaved. Maybe this is fairness in your view.

Mar 14, 2004, 05:30 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
eamad mazouri Molten Ash Posts: 64	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Zeebadee,) Someone's always being massacred somewhere. Shall the kneejerk response always be to send U.S. troops to fix the problem?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I think you need to read the details of what happened before you say that.Kurds have became outcast in Middle East because of their collaboration with US and coalition. If US withdraw-God forbid- they might subjected to total annihilation by these regimes.

Mar 13, 2004, 02:25 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
eamad mazouri Molten Ash Posts: 64	A soccer game in Kurdish city of Qamishlo-North East of Syria- turned violent and led to the massacre of many Kurds who took to the streets to protest the act of the security forces. http://www.kurdnet.net/www.kdp.info/news/n...intNewsNr=11154 An appeal has been issued. Kurdish cities and towns are under siege by Syrian army and seciruty forces. http://www.kurdnet.net/www.kdp.info/news/n...intNewsNr=11146 Riots are expanding to other towns. http://www.kurdnet.net/www.kdp.info/news/n...intNewsNr=11145

Mar 14, 2004, 05:32 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
eamad mazouri Molten Ash Posts: 64	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) google "syria kurds" and read reports from several different sources. Weed out the obviously-biased Israeli and Kurdish sites and see what kind of "massacre" is (not) going on.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Why don't you tell us youe version of what happened.I read all kind of sources other than Syrian official version, I hope your not meaning it by independent sources.

Mar 14, 2004, 09:28 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	The stories from mainstream news are different than from Israeli and Kurdish sites. No, I did not mean Syrian official version. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 14, 2004, 09:43 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Kurdish problems started with the US Coalition? Weird, I thought I heard about it quite a long time before Iraq. 2) Are you from Syria? I have a friend who is Kurdish from Syria. Not all "middle eastern" countries do everything the same. Can you back up you claim that in that country they are enslaved? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 15, 2004, 04:27 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	DAMASCUS, March 12 (Reuters) - Three children were killed and more than 100 people injured in a stampede on Friday after fighting broke out at a premier league football match in the northeast Syrian town of Kameshli, witnesses said. State-run Syrian Radio reported the deaths as it began live coverage of the match, which was quickly called off. Police surrounded the stadium and fired shots in the air, but it was not clear whether they had been able to stop the fighting. Officials were not immediately available for comment. Witnesses said there were between 5,000 and 7,000 spectators at the match between Kameshli and nearby Deir al-Zour. Visiting fans threw sticks and stones at the Kameshli supporters, witnesses said. "We had nothing to defend ourselves with because we were not expecting this, so we had to run and there was a stampede," one witness said. One witness said visiting fans also shouted slogans that offended Syrian Kurdish supporters of Kameshli, a town near the Iraqi border that has a large Syrian Kurdish population. Hospital sources told Reuters they could not confirm any deaths but more than 100 injured people had been brought in, including an 11-year-old boy with bullet wounds in the stomach. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 16, 2004, 12:50 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
eamad mazouri Molten Ash Posts: 64	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) The stories from mainstream news are different than from Israeli and Kurdish sites. No, I did not mean Syrian official version.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Good. Why don't you try this link. http://hosting.afp.com/clients/ikp/english/news/

Mar 16, 2004, 12:58 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
eamad mazouri Molten Ash Posts: 64	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) Kurdish problems started with the US Coalition? Weird, I thought I heard about it quite a long time before Iraq. 2) Are you from Syria? I have a friend who is Kurdish from Syria. Not all "middle eastern" countries do everything the same. Can you back up you claim that in that country they are enslaved?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I never saidthe Kurdish problem started with US Coalition. I know as well as you do the origin of Kurdish problem. I hope you are not blaming Kurds for defending their very existence. To answer your question I am not from Syria, but Iam Kurdish. Do you mean Syria treat Kurds differently? It depend on how do you define enslavenment. as a metaphore,If you are living on your ancestral land, your land is taken away from you and given to others, you deprived of citizenship and all the rights that follow,and you are living in constant fear to be arrested imprisoned or killed,I believe i can call that enslavenment.

Mar 16, 2004, 03:09 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	But you're not describing the majority of Kurds in Syria when you say that. (PS - socialists take land from everyone). I know Kurds have a hard time - but from the person who I know it is not like what you say in Syria, at least. I couldn't speak about anywhere else. He is Kurdish from Syria and so is his wife and so are their families who still live there today. So obviously I'm going to consider him a credible source. There may be some who do not have citizenship rights - I've read from between 65,000 and 200,000. I am not saying that is right or wrong - I don't know the situation - but I know that there are 2,000,000 Kurds in Syria so if is true that 10% are treated this way, at least be accurate and not act like all two million are in this boat. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 16, 2004, 03:27 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
eamad mazouri Molten Ash Posts: 64	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) But you're not describing the majority of Kurds in Syria when you say that. (PS - socialists take land from everyone). I know Kurds have a hard time - but from the person who I know it is not like what you say in Syria, at least. I couldn't speak about anywhere else. He is Kurdish from Syria and so is his wife and so are their families who still live there today. So obviously I'm going to consider him a credible source. There may be some who do not have citizenship rights - I've read from between 65,000 and 200,000. I am not saying that is right or wrong - I don't know the situation - but I know that there are 2,000,000 Kurds in Syria so if is true that 10% are treated this way, at least be accurate and not act like all two million are in this boat.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Look Mia, you seem like a reasonable person, and I enjoy talking to reasonable ones regardless of our conflicting views. The figures you provided are very fair. The issue of Kurdish land taken away had nothing to do with socialism. I just read this morning the name of the Arab tribes they were broght to the Kurdish areas, It was something like Ghamer tribes whose land was flooded by Euphrate dam. Kurds were evicted and stripped off their land. Why cannot you see this as an Arabization act? You know Kurdistan is geographically united only politically divided. The bordertriangle with Turkey and Iraq is Kurdish. I don't know about your friends, uptil end of the 50s major Kurdish families were the backbone of Syrian aristocracy .After Baath most of them were Arabize. I , on the other hand have many Syrian Kurdish friends in Russia and Sweden who have escaped persecution and they tell me horrible stories of their misery. It seems the riots have expanded to include Afrin.And there are more victimes and too many arrests. http://www.kurdnet.net/www.kdp.info/news/n...intNewsNr=11230

Mar 16, 2004, 08:24 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Actually, I know next to nothing about Kurds. It came up a lot in the lead-up to the Iraq war. "The Kurds" were brought up over and over by middle-eastern nations. The Kurds this the Kurds that. Who are these poor Kurds and why does everyone want to keep them down? was my question. I am only responding to your post because there are some things about Syria I do know, and I specifically got a little info on the Kurdish situation THERE. While I undertand completely you want to do whatever you can to bring light to your cause, I do not think it is fair, nor helpful to your cause, to exaggerate grossly. And what I know from very reliable people conflicts with statements like "The Kurds (implying all 2,000,000) are not citizens and cannot go to school or hospital, etc..." "hundreds were killed, mostly by Syrian officials" Additionally, can the actions taken before the current party took control (in what, the 70's?) be held against the current government? As far as the current situation....as I said, both mainstream news and what people inside Syria tell me is different from Kurdish or Israeli sites. So, I am not going to take a postion on it, only point out there is more than one side to the story. I reccommend always to everyone that if you are going to form an opinion on something, at least look at it from all sides first. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 16, 2004, 11:30 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
eamad mazouri Molten Ash Posts: 64	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) Actually, I know next to nothing about Kurds. It came up a lot in the lead-up to the Iraq war. "The Kurds" were brought up over and over by middle-eastern nations. The Kurds this the Kurds that. Who are these poor Kurds and why does everyone want to keep them down? was my question. I am only responding to your post because there are some things about Syria I do know, and I specifically got a little info on the Kurdish situation THERE. While I undertand completely you want to do whatever you can to bring light to your cause, I do not think it is fair, nor helpful to your cause, to exaggerate grossly. And what I know from very reliable people conflicts with statements like "The Kurds (implying all 2,000,000) are not citizens and cannot go to school or hospital, etc..." "hundreds were killed, mostly by Syrian officials" Additionally, can the actions taken before the current party took control (in what, the 70's?) be held against the current government? As far as the current situation....as I said, both mainstream news and what people inside Syria tell me is different from Kurdish or Israeli sites. So, I am not going to take a postion on it, only point out there is more than one side to the story. I reccommend always to everyone that if you are going to form an opinion on something, at least look at it from all sides first.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I assume you know too many Syrians-that is Arab Syrians- and perhaps one Kurdish family. If you know next to nothing about Kurds, then it would unfair of you to pass judgement on them, especially concerning the latest incident.Also you would only defending Syria.Isincerely would like to hear about your info on Syria, and whatever you know about Kurds.I am beginning to suspect your info on Kurds are one sided. If you are interested I can tell alot about Kurds and their plight.You can ask me any question, I would glad to respond to it as objective as I can. If there is one nation in Middle East who is tolerant is Kurdish nation who has been divided, discriminated against and never himself made any aggression against any other nation.Under worst circumstances they have refused to resort to terrorist acts,despite the fact that those governments were terrorizing Kurdish civilians all the time. I cited various sources, majority of which were Kurdish who has until now telephone contact with Kurds inside Syria.Of course they vary on the number of casualties.In a country like Syria you will never get the right number.Many of the wounded didn't seek treatment fearing they would be detained.Today's news are estimating the number of arrested at 6000 Kurds. The current government is a continuation of previous ones. It is the Baath party and its policies that deny the very existence of Kurds. Find one Syrian law, not only the constitution, but any law that mention the word "Kurd" or in any form or shape recognize Kurds. The Arab Belt was enforced in 1962. If the current government is just, it would return the land to the Kurds and compensate Arabs for their losses and it would grant those who have been denied before the Syrian citizenship. I cannot agree more on your last statement. I personally don't hate anybody, and I am against all kinds of violence. But I like to know whyare against Kurdish and Israeli sources. Here are some links with much info on Syrian Kurds, I hope you find them interesting. http://hrw.org/reports/1996/Syria.htm http://www.10452lccc.com/neal/hitti29.5.03.htm http://international-friends-of-kurdistan....n_kurdistan.htm http://www.american.edu/cgp/pdf/dunn.pdf http://www.kurd.org/kcrf/SyriaKCRF.html

Mar 17, 2004, 01:51 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	I am not passing judgement on anyone - and I am not biased in favor of Syria that I will just defend it. But if I see something that seems innacurate, yes I am going to say something. I don't pretend to know a lot even about Kurds in Syria, just what I said - that it is not correct to imply that the whole population is "enslaved" "under seige" and "not able to go to school, hospital, travel..." when I know that the Kurdish Syrian I know has a law degree over there, his wife has a government job, they both travel back and forth at will, their families travel to see them, and they say there is no massacre and no one is under seige. I admitted I do not know about the estimated 65,000-200,000 who have been denied citizenship. I know Syria is very strict on citizenship and that Kurds aren't the only ones this affects. I am not trying to present a different, one-sided version. I only know enough to refute the other end somewhat. In fact, I am specifically NOT writing what some Syrians say about "their side" as it seems biased and of no use. I have a problem with any pro-anything site as views and "information" are always biased. In the particular case at hand, I would not believe official Syrian site or official Kurdish site. (or Israeli as they are anti-anything-arab). I took from news from all sources and people who actually live there. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 17, 2004, 02:07 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
eamad mazouri Molten Ash Posts: 64	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) I am not passing judgement on anyone - and I am not biased in favor of Syria that I will just defend it. But if I see something that seems innacurate, yes I am going to say something. I don't pretend to know a lot even about Kurds in Syria, just what I said - that it is not correct to imply that the whole population is "enslaved" "under seige" and "not able to go to school, hospital, travel..." when I know that the Kurdish Syrian I know has a law degree over there, his wife has a government job, they both travel back and forth at will, their families travel to see them, and they say there is no massacre and no one is under seige. I admitted I do not know about the estimated 65,000-200,000 who have been denied citizenship. I know Syria is very strict on citizenship and that Kurds aren't the only ones this affects. I am not trying to present a different, one-sided version. I only know enough to refute the other end somewhat. In fact, I am specifically NOT writing what some Syrians say about "their side" as it seems biased and of no use. I have a problem with any pro-anything site as views and "information" are always biased. In the particular case at hand, I would not believe official Syrian site or official Kurdish site. (or Israeli as they are anti-anything-arab). I took from news from all sources and people who actually live there.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Let's put everything else to aside, and just focus on the portion of Kurds who do not have citizenship.Do you think a democratic government would deny its people something basic as citizenship? Or is it right for any government to do that? Second the Arab Belt. I hope you read about that. Do you think there is any chance current Syrian government would remedy that, I mean return the land to Kurds again. You see we Kurds have long experiance with Arabization. Just like Scotts-Mountain People- Whenever the attacks on them became unbearable, the only refugethey had was to seek shelter in rugged mountains which left our plain land open to them to be Arabized. This happened in Iraq as well as in Syria, Turkey and Iran. I believe it is in the best interests of Syria to recognize Kurds and their rights and forget about past atrocities and injustices. That is how a new democratic, peaceful and prosperous Syria can be build.

Mar 17, 2004, 03:53 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	I can't agree or disagree with any of that. As I tried to explain, this is not a situation I am familiar enough with to discuss. I only wanted to correct the idea that Kurds are being massacred and treated in Syria as they are in Turkey or like they are being tormented as they were in Iraq. From the small amount that I have read it seems Kurds have a raw deal overall and I intend to learn more. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 17, 2004, 10:39 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
eamad mazouri Molten Ash Posts: 64	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) I can't agree or disagree with any of that. As I tried to explain, this is not a situation I am familiar enough with to discuss. I only wanted to correct the idea that Kurds are being massacred and treated in Syria as they are in Turkey or like they are being tormented as they were in Iraq. From the small amount that I have read it seems Kurds have a raw deal overall and I intend to learn more.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Thank Mia for aknowledging the fact that Kurds do have a raw deal.Like I said I will be delighted to answer any question you have regarding Kurds and their issue in any part of Kurdistan as much as I can. And I will let you know when I can't. In the meantime why don't check out the news about more clashes between Kurds and Syrian authorities that claimed more victims. http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A8E...04781763AE2.htm http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=U...tm&q=&scoring=d