"Noble War Noble Cause" Petition

[gr8fuldaniel]

Petition from Buzzflash

"I demand that George W. Bush's daughters, and his eligible nieces and nephews, serve in Iraq to prove their support of Bush's 'noble war for a noble cause.' If the Bush family does not believe in 'sacrificing' for the war and is not willing to put their lives on the line, then Bush must bring the troops of middle class and poor Americans home now." --> SIGN HERE <-- Your signature will be sent to the White House, media outlets, and Congressional leaders. BUSH EXTENDED FAMILY PHOTO taken January 20, 2005 Like George did, the new generation of Bushes let other Americans do the dying for them. Bush has derided the mothers and fathers of our nation's war dead for not wanting any more young American men and women to die in Iraq. "We owe them [the already killed and wounded soldiers] something," he told veterans in Salt Lake City (even though his administration tried to shortchange the veterans agency by $1.5 billion, according to Maureen Dowd). "We will finish the task that they gave their lives for." Yet, not one -- not one -- of any of Bush's children or his nieces and nephews have volunteered for service in any branch of the military or volunteered to serve in any capacity in Iraq. Not one of them has felt the cause was noble enough to put his or her life on the line. Here is the full list of the children of Bush and his siblings who have chosen to let other young men and women -- mostly poor, rural and minorities -- die for them, because they have no desire to die for George W. Bush's alleged "noble cause" (assuming an eligible age of 17 with parental consent to join the military): MORE.......

A BuzzFlash Initiative That Has Already Forced the White House to Respond to the Petition, As a Result of a Washington Post Columnist Asking Them About It.

Isnt it about time, the White House "Put up or Shut up"?

[xyzer]

What absolute nonsense this petition represents!

For one thing we are fighting the war, and subsequent occupation, with a VOLUNTEER military force. In spite of the fact the leftist press,and demagogues, try to make us believe, these are not children nor are they unwilling participants..

In a strictly statistical analyses of having a force of approximately 150,000 troops involved in a shooting war and terrorist impeded occupation, the casualty figures are very low. Check any peaceful? American City of comparable population for it murders, accidental deaths, deaths from disease, and see over a 2+ year period how they compare?

Resolve and patience are needed in most any endeavor and the antiwar people don't have either quality. They want such things to run like a TV program...over in a given, often unrealistic, time period.

[RickSp]

Quote by: xyzer In a strictly statistical analyses of having a force of approximately 150,000 troops involved in a shooting war and terrorist impeded occupation, the casualty figures are very low. Check any peaceful? American City of comparable population for it murders, accidental deaths, deaths from disease, and see over a 2+ year period how they compare?

Here we have another supporter of an immoral war making it clear that the death of fine Americans mean nothing to him. All the "support our troops" nonsense disappears as he cavalierly comments that "the casualty figures are very low". Hey, only 20,000 fine Americans have been killed or maimed in Iraq and this is not counting the tens of thousands who will suffer from PTSS for decades to come.

Excuse me, if I find this worse than disgusting. First a war based on lies and now war supporters who dismiss the needless death and maiming of Americans, and completely ignore the tens of thousand Iraqi civilians killed by our planes, tanks and guns.

Worse than disgusting.

[SteveA]

I can understand the sentiment to draft Bush's family, but I oppose drafting people on principle and that includes Bush and relatives. If you make a few exceptions, that'll only lead to worse things later. Oppose the draft.

[Sonart]

They're not advocating drafting anyone, Steve. They're advocating that eligable members of Bush's family volunteer to serve in Dear Leader's 'Noble Cause'.

.

[bishop]

i agree with steve...

yesterday, i linked to a more acceptable petition:

http://www.volconvo.com/forums/thread7082.html

[SteveA]

Quote by: Sonart They're not advocating drafting anyone, Steve. They're advocating that eligable members of Bush's family volunteer to serve in Dear Leader's 'Noble Cause'. .

Thank you for correcting me. Yes, I made an assumption that wasn't there.

[xyzer]

Excuse me, if I find this worse than disgusting. First a war based on lies and now war supporters who dismiss the needless death and maiming of Americans, and completely ignore the tens of thousand Iraqi civilians killed by our planes, tanks and guns.

The war..and subsequent occupation..was/is based on the constitutionally approved methods of our governance. This included discussion and affirmative vote by our legislators at the national level. In case the impatient antiwar protestors didn't bother to check a very small % voted against it. These Representatives and Senators were privy to the same intelligence data(some call it lies) that the President was. Intelligence services worldwide also believed these "lies" you refer to. By the way intelligence estimates that don't subsequently prove to be valid are not lies? Truth changes as information and events change!
The truth is what we believe from whats before us at the time. If you told a friend what you are now reading and found out next week that xyzer didn't make this post would you have lied to your friend?

By the way since when were tens of thousands of Iraqis killed by the US? The thousands of civilian casualties I read about are from Iraqi and other Muslim suicide bombers and indiscriminately placed mines, bombs and booby traps. Are we getting the same news.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: xyzer these are not children nor are they unwilling participants..

Why are their tours being extended? Why the "backdoor draft"? The simple fact that they have hijacked our National Guard troops for regular military duty and occupation of a sovereign nation, proves these are not "VOLUNTEERS". They volunteered for a weekend each month and to serve the governor of their own state. The military wouldnt have to resort to backdoor drafts and sneaky tricks if everyone was just "dying" to stay voluntarily.

Quote by: xyzer and terrorist impeded occupation

I thought this wasnt an occupation?

Quote by: xyzer Check any peaceful? American City of comparable population for it murders, accidental deaths, deaths from disease, and see over a 2+ year period how they compare?

Its impossible, since we dont count the Iraqis we murder.

We dont do body counts--- Tommy Franks

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: xyzer The war..and subsequent occupation..was/is based on the constitutionally approved methods of our governance.

Actually this war is illegal on many fronts. Basically, Iraq never attacked us. The concept of "Preventive War" is illegal:

Counterpunch ...how the Iraq War violated Articles 51 and 39 of the United Nations Charter and other international laws. Article 51 of the U.N. Charter provides that "Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security." Bush and Blair tried to justify the intervention on the presence of so-called Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) and by drawing an implicit connection of the Hussein regime to Al Quaeda. "Neither of these contentions stood the test of scrutiny," said Weston. "No WMD ever existed at the ready with a hands-on-the-trigger scenario. Not only were these weapons ever found, but there is no evidence that they could have been deployed even if they had been found."

[RickSp]

Quote by: xyzer The war..and subsequent occupation..was/is based on the constitutionally approved methods of our governance. This included discussion and affirmative vote by our legislators at the national level. In case the impatient antiwar protestors didn't bother to check a very small % voted against it. These Representatives and Senators were privy to the same intelligence data(some call it lies) that the President was. Intelligence services worldwide also believed these "lies" you refer to. By the way intelligence estimates that don't subsequently prove to be valid are not lies? Truth changes as information and events change! The truth is what we believe from whats before us at the time. If you told a friend what you are now reading and found out next week that xyzer didn't make this post would you have lied to your friend? By the way since when were tens of thousands of Iraqis killed by the US? The thousands of civilian casualties I read about are from Iraqi and other Muslim suicide bombers and indiscriminately placed mines, bombs and booby traps. Are we getting the same news.

The Bush administration's phony intel has now been pretty well documented. Doug Feith's Office of Special Projects did nothing but cobble together false intel, all of which has been proven wrong. And one of his staff has been charged as an Isreali spy.

The Lie Factory
Douglas Jay Feith

Your ignorance of civilian deaths isn't surprising either. The best estimates are that over 10,000 were kiled in the intitial invasion, mostly by US bombing. Estimates of current deaths range from 26,000 to over 100,000 depending on whose figures you believe.

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Surveys pointing to high civilian death toll in Iraq

[Sonart]

Quote by: xyzer The war..and subsequent occupation..was/is based on the constitutionally approved methods of our governance. This included discussion and affirmative vote by our legislators at the national level. In case the impatient antiwar protestors didn't bother to check a very small % voted against it.

So what? Over the pasts 2½ years Americans have learned the hard way that the "small %" who opposed the war were correct and that all the predictions and promises made by LBDubya and Rumsnamara were wrong.

Quote by: xyzer This included discussion and affirmative vote by our legislators at the national level.

Legislators misled by misinformation provided by the Executive Branch, over the warnings of Bush's intelligence organizations and his senior military.

The Stovepipe, Seymour Hersh, New Yorker Magazine, Oct. 27, 2003

Weapons of Mass Disappearance, Michael Duffy, TIME Magazine, Jun. 01, 2003

Where are Iraq's WMDs? Evan Thomas, Richard Wolffe and Michael Isikoff, NEWSWEEK June 9, 2003

Intelligence group warned of pitfalls of Iraq invasion By Douglas Jehl and David E. Sanger, NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE September 28, 2004

Quote by: xyzer For one thing we are fighting the war, and subsequent occupation, with a VOLUNTEER military force. In spite of the fact the leftist press,and demagogues, try to make us believe, these are not children nor are they unwilling participants.

Again, so what? Whatever their reasons for choosing to bravely serve their country, it has become more and more obvious that they're dying for a mistake, for a bad, ill-conceived, ill-planned and ill-conducted policy. Any poker player knows you don't keep throwing money into a losing hand... you cut your loses to avoid eventually losing everything.

Quote by: xyzer In a strictly statistical analyses of having a force of approximately 150,000 troops involved in a shooting war and terrorist impeded occupation, the casualty figures are very low.

And yet AGAIN, so what? What does it matter if there's no end in sight in a war we can't win. At what point do our loses become significant enough to inform you that this is a losing proposition? And as RickSp pointed out, our loses in Iraq involved considerably more than the 2,000 dead... SO FAR. There's ten times that many maimed and wounded, $billion a month tacked on to our debt, $3 a gallon gasoline here at home, our allies deserting us in droves, and the United States, the undisputed and respected leader of the free world when Dear Leader took office, turned into a pariah.

Quote by: xyzer By the way since when were tens of thousands of Iraqis killed by the US? The thousands of civilian casualties I read about are from Iraqi and other Muslim suicide bombers and indiscriminately placed mines, bombs and booby traps. Are we getting the same news.

Well, they certainly wouldn't be dead if we hadn't invaded.

.

[Sean]

Moved. The Politics forum is for debates, not other site's petitions.

[Sonart]

We're dabating the petition, Sean. Seems clear enough.

.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Sonart We're dabating the petition, Sean. Seems clear enough. .

It is a mystery to me. A discussion of a political perspective is OK but a discussion of the political perspective associated with a petition is not OK. Looks like a finely split hair, particularly as half the posts don't even address the petition at all, just the issues raised by it.

[Livemike]

Quote by: RickSp Here we have another supporter of an immoral war making it clear that the death of fine Americans mean nothing to him. All the "support our troops" nonsense disappears as he cavalierly comments that "the casualty figures are very low". Hey, only 20,000 fine Americans have been killed or maimed in Iraq and this is not counting the tens of thousands who will suffer from PTSS for decades to come. Excuse me, if I find this worse than disgusting. First a war based on lies and now war supporters who dismiss the needless death and maiming of Americans, and completely ignore the tens of thousand Iraqi civilians killed by our planes, tanks and guns. Worse than disgusting.

If I raped 1,700 women nobody would accept the excuse that it was not statistically
a large number compared to the number that could have been raped. But kill 1,700
men and people still say "Well it's not that many considering how many men are there.".