Pornography

[YourTokah]

Praise god and pass the amunition!

[Jack]

That's too bad you got drunk and had sex with a guy. Maybe you'll think where you are next time you get drunk.

What bar was that again...? Do you think the fact I've quit drinking would affect my chances? :)

[mathurin]

well then i guess if we are no different than animals its ok for me to go rape that girl, after all, studies have shown ducks rape
and i guess ill go murder my boss at work and take his place as the alpha male, yay, lots of cute carhops to screw, their parents dont like it, screw'em, they die and make more room for my progeny

humans have risen above the amoral animal condition, part of being a moral creature is controlling yourself and your urges, human beings who act like animals end up in mental hospitals

seriously, do you lack the discipline or just the will to control yourself, im not saying it should be mandated or anything, only that it should be respected, virgin men are treated like losers, put in a position to act like players or be outcasts, there are more important things to me than to be wrapped around some girls finger begging for sex, have some self respect, the world does not revolve around your penis, go read a book

[YourTokah]

Thanks for that rant, Mathurin. Now, about Pornography?


That is the topic of this thread, after all, although I'm sure I can guess your feelings on the subject.

[Flip Jackson]

I love how everyone decides to attack my intelligence when they don't agree with me. It almost makes me want to go adopt an entire family of cats and maybe even a dog. We could wallow in my ignorance.

Why is it sacred? I have mentioned this, the power it holds. It has power to create life! I don't see how poeple condemn murder and the ending of life so horrible, but so many people don't recognize that the same caution should be taken in bringing about life. Would you perform some action that would end up killing someone "if the condom broke." Of course not. But that is a reasonable excuse for bringing kids into bad lives.

The whole "healthy to masturbate" thing is an opinion. It is a way to fulfill our sexual desire, right? Since when is a simulation of an improtant drive healthy? How about I pretend to drink water. Or I eat toy fruit. Isn't it healthy beacuse I am fulfilling the need in another way?

Why is it dumb to think people are above animals? We have morals, a conscience, and the ability to put aside our desires to help ourself in the future, or to benefit another person. We can think and reason like no animal can. We progress collectively unlike most animals. We exhibit so many things that no animal comes close to.

People having sex may be the same act as animals having sex, but the effects can easily be greater in humans. Because of our greater mental ability and emotional capacity, our reasons for sex could be very different. Animals can have sex for fun or to reproduce. Is that all people use sex for? They use it for fun and kids, but also for a display of love, and emotional connection, maybe exercise, and whatever else, even for money.

I am not being a moron, having sex and crying about it later. I am saying that sex and porn have more effects than people give them credit for, good and bad effects.(Although I wouldn't say porn has any good effects.)

[YourTokah]

Quote by: Flip Jackson The whole "healthy to masturbate" thing is an opinion. It is a way to fulfill our sexual desire, right? Since when is a simulation of an improtant drive healthy? How about I pretend to drink water. Or I eat toy fruit. Isn't it healthy beacuse I am fulfilling the need in another way?

Masturbation brings the same rush of endorphins and "happy" or "good" brain chemicals that sex would, so the analogies don't work at all. Eating toy fruit or pretending to drink eater doesn't fulfill any need at all, unless you're in a play or something.

Quote by: Flip Jackson Although I wouldn't say porn has any good effects.)

I guess this is relative. My husband and I watched some porn yesterday and I noticed a Visible effect that I consider pretty darn good.

[Flip Jackson]

Not to be rude, but I see where mathurin is coming from, and he responded to things that have been brought up in the thread.

YourTokah, you mentioned how saving sex for marraige was kind of a romantic idea that was silly. I just want to say that I share the view you seem to have about soul mates. I don't think they exist. It is just a wish people have that there is someone "made" for them out there somewhere. I think you could find a number of people you could be compatible with.

But I don't find saving sex for marraige silly, or overly romantic. Unlike a soul mate, you control saving that display of affection for someone you intend to be with for a while. I still think the relationship will be strong if your partner knows you waited for someone important. I think this is a valid idea because we have the control, not destiny or fate.

[Flip Jackson]

The toy fruit analogy could work. You could fulfill your hunger with toy or plastic or wax fruit, but that doesn't mean it is good for you.

Also, in another analogy, it isn't necessarily always a good idea to eat just because we think we are hungry. Often this leads to people eating to much. Couldn't that work for porn and sex, too. We may think we need to appease that part of us so much, but maybe we take it too far. Maybe we don't need as much sexual fulfillment as we think.

[YourTokah]

Quote by: Flip Jackson The toy fruit analogy could work. You could fulfill your hunger with toy or plastic or wax fruit, but that doesn't mean it is good for you

But the release of those endorphins, whether from sex or masturbation, IS good for you.

Quote by: Flip Jackson Maybe we don't need as much sexual fulfillment as we think.

But maybe we Want it. So what's wrong with that?

Quote by: Flip Jackson it isn't necessarily always a good idea to eat just because we think we are hungry. Often this leads to people eating to much. Couldn't that work for porn and sex, too.

Yes, people can be addicted to porn or sex just like they can be addicted to eating. But that doesn't mean food is bad and should be treated sacredly.

Quote by: Flip Jackson YourTokah, you mentioned how saving sex for marraige was kind of a romantic idea that was silly.

Actually, I said it was a "charming romantic notion". I never said it was silly. "silly" carries a different conotation altogether. Had I had a chocie, I would have waited.

Considering over half of American marriages fail, there's no guarantee that that person you marry will be the "right" one to have saved it for. Why deny yourself something that is a large part of human nature just to make someone else feel like they're the cat's pajamas for a brief period of time until you get divorced or sex becomes boring and routine? And how does pornography take sex and make it un-sacred if it's being viewd by individuals who love having their tantric, sacred sex together and enjoy a little stimulation? Or by one person waiting for that tantric spouse to get home?

[Jack]

I still appreciate my porn collection.
You won't get my magazines away from me until you pry them out of my cold, dead fingers.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: mathurin well then i guess if we are no different than animals its ok for me to go rape that girl, after all, studies have shown ducks rape and i guess ill go murder my boss at work and take his place as the alpha male, yay, lots of cute carhops to screw, their parents dont like it, screw'em, they die and make more room for my progeny humans have risen above the amoral animal condition, part of being a moral creature is controlling yourself and your urges, human beings who act like animals end up in mental hospitals seriously, do you lack the discipline or just the will to control yourself, im not saying it should be mandated or anything, only that it should be respected, virgin men are treated like losers, put in a position to act like players or be outcasts, there are more important things to me than to be wrapped around some girls finger begging for sex, have some self respect, the world does not revolve around your penis, go read a book

go for it. except our society has decided not to let those things happen.

If there are more important things, then go do those things. Why are you imposing your conservative sex opinion here without reason? Because you want everyone else to think like you, which makes me wonder whether you're capable of even getting laid in the first place.

Human beings are intelligent animals. We have thrown away the animal part because a lot of people think we are "better" than animals, for some reason. Just because we're smart, we're better, or something. We want to be moral. OK. Don't kill, steal, or cause trouble. If you noticed, none of the things that are illegal (except rape maybe?) are involved in nature. Sex is a natural thing. Go enjoy yourself. Once again, you only live once, then those private parts will disintegrate when you're dead.

And who wants to have sex with just one person? If you truly loved them, I can completely see why they would do that. But if your single, go exploring. There's a lot more to life than books and science. There's emotion and happiness. I rarely smoke weed, and experiment with other drugs that won't hurt my body too bad. Go get laid and have some fun. Just don't be an idiot about it.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Flip Jackson I love how everyone decides to attack my intelligence when they don't agree with me. It almost makes me want to go adopt an entire family of cats and maybe even a dog. We could wallow in my ignorance. Why is it sacred? I have mentioned this, the power it holds. It has power to create life! I don't see how poeple condemn murder and the ending of life so horrible, but so many people don't recognize that the same caution should be taken in bringing about life. Would you perform some action that would end up killing someone "if the condom broke." Of course not. But that is a reasonable excuse for bringing kids into bad lives. The whole "healthy to masturbate" thing is an opinion. It is a way to fulfill our sexual desire, right? Since when is a simulation of an improtant drive healthy? How about I pretend to drink water. Or I eat toy fruit. Isn't it healthy beacuse I am fulfilling the need in another way? Why is it dumb to think people are above animals? We have morals, a conscience, and the ability to put aside our desires to help ourself in the future, or to benefit another person. We can think and reason like no animal can. We progress collectively unlike most animals. We exhibit so many things that no animal comes close to. People having sex may be the same act as animals having sex, but the effects can easily be greater in humans. Because of our greater mental ability and emotional capacity, our reasons for sex could be very different. Animals can have sex for fun or to reproduce. Is that all people use sex for? They use it for fun and kids, but also for a display of love, and emotional connection, maybe exercise, and whatever else, even for money. I am not being a moron, having sex and crying about it later. I am saying that sex and porn have more effects than people give them credit for, good and bad effects.(Although I wouldn't say porn has any good effects.)

Flip, I'm not calling you a moron at all. I just think your views are wrong. There is no psychological difference between having sex and taking ecstacy. Each stimulate the brain and rush in the hormones. Maybe when you have sex, you get emotionally attached or something, which is dumb, unless you actually love the person. If you were moral, you would control your urge to fall in love with this person like mathurin said and not be an idiot and forget the little thing ever happened.

I can think better than a mentally retarded person and I can do a hell of a lot more than one. That doesn't make me better. It makes me more capable of doing things he cannot do. Like how animals are unable to do the things we do. It's not that they choose not to reason or think or be moralistic. My analogy passes just as easily as your murder-condom-power analogy, even though murder and sex are really two opposite things and thus deserve opposite meanings. They don't relate.

And actually it is healthy to masturbate. You are basically cleaning out your system and making new things for your body after and during masturbation. Read that in an article one time.

[Flip Jackson]

YouTokah,sorry, I didn't recall what you said about saving sex for marraige. But I think you got the point. But I think marraiges fail today partly because we focus too much on sex and not on personality or compatibility.

I am saving myself, and I have no intention of divorce, ever. I will make sure I am compatible with someone and make sure I like them. I will svae sex until I already know I want to be with the person. The intimacy with be a bonus. I intend to then work through problems and not giving up.I can't believe how fast peolple decide to get married and divorced these days.

If we as a society got to really know people and saved sex for marraige, then one of two things would happen. Everyone would marry quickly to have sex, or people would find people they like before having sex, then get married, and enjoy intimacy as a bonus with someone they already know they like. I don't see why that is unrealistic.

Pornography, by nature, is addictive because it appeals so strongly to our physical senses and drives. If you have good control over this, then that is amazing. But it seems to me that porn makes us think we need sex more than we do. Porn may make unrealistic expectations. Now I admit, my life is very different from yours, so I can't tell how it is bad for you personally if it is.

I am just making observations of people at large. Keep in mind, I am a guy and hang out with guys. I am so disappointed when I see a married friend admiring some woman in a short skirt because his wife isn't around. I think porn and just the way we treat sex and people has had negative effects on relationships and marraiges.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Flip Jackson YouTokah,sorry, I didn't recall what you said about saving sex for marraige. But I think you got the point. But I think marraiges fail today partly because we focus too much on sex and not on personality or compatibility.

This is very too. Once again, people are dumb and sometimes don't think; even lust is tough to disregard. That's why when I encourage sex, I also add not to be an idiot about. Have sex for the fun or for the kids, not for the emotional stress, the crappy, sex-induced marraige, or the pressure of having it in the first place.

[Flip Jackson]

Soccer, I think you used words like idiot, dumb, and moron in your post. Some aimed directly at me for my views. If you disagree with me, fine. No need to demean.

You also made some comment about how you doubt mathurin could get laid. This is what society has turned sex into. It is the "cool" thing to do. Go screw as many people as you can. Have fun, there is no harm. But this is dangerous as you have no way of protecting yourself from STDs. Go have fun, but recognize that there might be consequences.

I try to learn from other people's errors. Let's see, people who have sex before marraige and up getting married and divorced many times and dont seem happy. People who wait for the person they want to stay with, seem to stay married longer and appear happier. Why is it foolish to notice the trend, and to want to follow it? This is just what I have seen in my life.

My comments about life pass just fine. My problem is that we take very little thought to creating life, but taking it is for some reason very wrong. Why? They both involve human life. Life ashould not be taken lightly in its making or taking.

A mentally retarded person is not the norm. They do not reflect the ability of a species. Besides, animals often kill or leave behind the handicapped young, don't they? We recognize why that seems immoral or inhuman. Animals don't distinguish that. That act on instinct. We act by reason. It is fair to say we are above animals in many ways. Morally, intellectually, socially.

[Flip Jackson]

Sex sometimes lead to marraige. My friend married his girlfriend because she got pregnant. More responsibility than I expected from him. I don't know if used a condom or not, but that's irrelevant and not my business, I think. The marraige was sex-induced in a way. Sometimes I wonder now how long they will stay together. They seem rather unhappy sometimes. I blame this on there relationship involving too much sex and not enough compatibility.

Many people probably do not consider themselves idiots at the time, but may realize the mistake afterwards, even if they used a condom.

[mathurin]

"Thanks for that rant, Mathurin. Now, about Pornography?


That is the topic of this thread, after all, although I'm sure I can guess your feelings on the subject."


i bet you guessed wrong, i find nothing wrong with porn, i look at porn, just because i find the "im an animal, animals have sex" arguement stupid doesnt mean im some kind of wacko religious right, i was responding to the post at the bottom of page 2

porn is covered by free speech, so even if i disagreed with it i would not want it controlled any more than it already is

[mathurin]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 go for it. except our society has decided not to let those things happen. If there are more important things, then go do those things. Why are you imposing your conservative sex opinion here without reason? Because you want everyone else to think like you, which makes me wonder whether you're capable of even getting laid in the first place.

hey, i said that those who feel they dont need to have sex should be respected for their choice and not ridiculed, how is that me forcing my opinion on you anymore than anybody else in this debate has been foisting their opinion on others that everybody should have sex all the time

and your last comment smacks of an insult, what is the first rule shown when you hit the post button?

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Human beings are intelligent animals. We have thrown away the animal part because a lot of people think we are "better" than animals, for some reason. Just because we're smart, we're better, or something. We want to be moral. OK. Don't kill, steal, or cause trouble. If you noticed, none of the things that are illegal (except rape maybe?) are involved in nature. Sex is a natural thing. Go enjoy yourself. Once again, you only live once, then those private parts will disintegrate when you're dead.

dont kill steal or cause trouble, none of the things that are illegal are involved in nature?
so the predators arent killing their prey, it doesnt count as manslaughter?
animals dont steal prey and other resources from other animals?
do you really have any clue as to what actually happens in nature?

people have gotten too much into this "if its natural its ok, or even good" AIDS is natural, tuberculosis, arsenic, just because something is natural doesnt mean its not harmful
still, you enjoy yourself all you want, i really dont care, i just ask for asmuch respect in my choice as you ask for in yours

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 And who wants to have sex with just one person? If you truly loved them, I can completely see why they would do that. But if your single, go exploring. There's a lot more to life than books and science. There's emotion and happiness. I rarely smoke weed, and experiment with other drugs that won't hurt my body too bad. Go get laid and have some fun. Just don't be an idiot about it.

im all for exploring, and i have never really decided not to have sex, i just havent, i go with how i want to go in any given situation, and sex has just never happened, and it does not bother me. i just find that travel and reading (i never said science, i science sucks, fiction, metaphysical topics, the study of mankind, thats what i like)

like i said, porn is fine and should not be restricted anymore than it already is
stop acting like you know what im about, you dont, im a libertarian, while i feel certain things are the best way to go, and certain paths are self destructive, i will deny no one their chosen self-destruction, choose your path, i will neither help you down it nor help you when you reach the end

[Flip Jackson]

I'm very quickly gaining respect for you mathurin, whether I agree completely with you or not. I don't know if that means anything to you, but there it is. I like the approach you take to all this. You recognize the danger, but don't force people.

[YourTokah]

You're right, Mathurin, I pegged you for an anti-porn-guy. I apologize for the rush to judgment.

I have to disagree with you, Flip, that having control over enjoying pornography is "amazing" due to it's super addictive nature. I think that having control over anything that is addictive is actually the "norm" and those with the addiction are outside of the norm. I think this applies to alcohol, drugs, pornography, etc. I know hundreds of people that smoke marijuana, personally, and I don't know a single person that's addicted to it. I also know dozens of people, personally, that enjoy pornography, but I don't know anyone that watches it more than a couple of times a week (or looks at magazines, etc.) MAX. Of course, I'm not around everyone 24-7, but from observation, I feel confident in stating that addiction to porn or aberrant behavior as the result of viewing pornographic materials is well outside the norm. The "norm" seems to be neatly divided between those that enjoy porn and those that do not.

I just do not think that pornography has an ill effect on society. If the argument is that it induces men to treat women like objects and cause broken homes, etc., I could easily argue that it isn't pornography at all, it's SEX. Sex makes them feel good, makes them have that little chemical rush just like a drug would give them, and they want that feeling any time they can get it (who wouldn't, after all, want to feel good as much as possible?). If they step out on their wife, then there are issues of respect, honesty, trust, communication, and compatibility within that relationship. It wouldn't be because porn had influenced them negatively. Porn is a means to an end, the end being climax by yourself or arousal to achieve climax with another person. It can be fun, funny, sexy, kinky - you name it. It doesn't harm society.