Threat to Divest Is Church Tool in Israeli Fight

[righthand]

The NEW YORK TIMES
[CENTER]Threat to Divest Is Church Tool in Israeli Fight
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/06/na...html?th&emc=th
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN ...Published: August 6, 2005[/center]

NYT - The Presbyterian Church U.S.A. announced Friday that it would press four American corporations to stop providing military equipment and technology to Israel for use in the occupation of the Palestinian territories, and that if the companies did not comply, the church would take a vote to divest its stock in them.

I've being awaiting this article ever since I received the following E-mail titled "Expose anti-Semites in US churches"

July 4, 2005 Dear Friend of Israel, This weekend, the United Church of Christ voted on divestment from Israel. Other prominent churches are looking at divestment, including the 77-million-member Anglican church. Divestment is worse than a simple boycott -- it is an expression of hate. Our petition against divestment http://jpost.m.xtenit.com/ct.jsp?uz1375377Biz923941 already has more than 7,000 names. But our goal is to collect more than 10,000. Mainline church leaders must get a strong message: Economic attacks on Israel are unjust and must stop. Help us send the message that Israel's enemies can't ignore: http://jpost.m.xtenit.com/ct.jsp?uz1375377Biz923941 Anti-Semitism by "mainline" Christians will not be tolerated. George W. Mamo Executive Director, Stand for Israel

NYT - The Presbyterian Church U.S.A. is in the forefront of a campaign now spreading to other mainline Protestant churches to use corporate divestment as a tactic in the Middle East conflict, a tactic that is roiling relations with Jewish groups. The Episcopal Church U.S.A., the United Church of Christ, two regions of the United Methodist Church, as well as international groups like the World Council of Churches and the Anglican Consultative Council have all urged consideration of divestment or economic pressure in recent months, though the tone and emphasis of each resolution varies. The Disciples of Christ passed a resolution last month calling on Israel to tear down the barrier it has built to wall off the occupied territories, and other churches are considering similar resolutions.

[PatrickHenry]

Same old story. They say anti-Israel is anti-Jew. Big fat lie.

[Sean]

righthand, you have to use sources that we can all read. This goes to a nytimes login. The washingtonpost and the nytimes make it hard to source.

[Milton Bradley]

What can you say if about this if the reporting is correct?


Seems these people have some type of agenda.

[righthand]

Back lash against principled Presbyterian & Protestant Churches stand.

[center] Presbyterian Do-Gooders Are Sabotaging Mideast Peace The Day, New London ...By TOM TEEPEN ...Published on 8/10/2005[/center] The Presbyterian Church USA has adopted get-tough policies toward Israel ostensibly designed to force peace with the Palestinians, but they are more likely to sabotage peace than to advance it. The church has threatened four U.S. companies that if they don't stop doing business with Israel, the church will divest the stock it holds in them. The companies provide heavy construction machinery, helicopters and communications equipment, all of which, the Presbyterians contend, can be, and sometimes are, used in supporting the occupation of Palestinian territories. The idea is to cut Israel off from tactically crucial materiel. With the move, the Presbyterian church places itself at the de facto head of a movement among mainstream Protestant churches to gang up on Israel. The Episcopalian Church USA, the United Church of Christ, the United Methodist Church and the World Council of Churches have all at least feinted toward disinvestment. Students at a number of colleges are pressing their schools to do the same. The churches' misplaced do-gooderism, blind to history and morally obtuse, will strengthen Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other projectionist/terrorist elements among the Palestinians and undermine the post-Arafat leadership's tentative efforts to regularize Palestinian governance as a precursor to the negotiated statehood that Israeli policy supports.

Actually it has everything but the attack on the 'USS Liberty' in the article. It really makes me wonder about its readership. This type of vitriol and a lot worse that I don't quote, would not go down as well in Israel, except for a belligerent minority. Yet there is an audience in the US. Riddle me this - more jewish than the jews of Israel, in the US.

Nobody has yet explained to me what is going in that E-mail that I received from Israel. I suppose it has something to do with being sent to purgatory/Miscellaneous. Will I ever find out down here? It could have been worse down with the religious nuts. There's hell. Ah well, you can only do your best. I'm not but it may even have this E-mail that got me sent here. Maybe someone would send me a PM explaining it. Just so you'll know what I'm talking about, I'll do a shortened version. Is there a way of posting the E-mail itself. Anybody out there. "Dublin calling, Dublin calling, anyone out there?"

[center] George W. Mamo ...Executive Director, Stand for Israel STOP Divestment From Israel July 4, 2005 ...Dear Friend of Israel [/center] This weekend, the United Church of Christ voted on divestment from Israel. Other prominent churches are looking at divestment, including the 77-million-member Anglican church. Divestment is worse than a simple boycott -- it is an expression of hate. Help us send the message that Israel's enemies can't ignore: Anti-Semitism by "mainline" Christians will not be tolerated.

[Matt W]

Righthand, try reading Seans' post. The NYTimes article has to be something everyone can read, without requiring subscription.

[righthand]

Quote by: Matt W Righthand, try reading Seans' post. The NYTimes article has to be something everyone can read, without requiring subscription.

I read it at least four times and I still didn't know what it meant. If I'd read it 40 times, I still would not know. It was only when I asked a poster with PM that I learnt. With the WP and NYT off the list, it has become very short. It would offend me to have to quote FOX, so I only know of CNN as a 'major'. I'm not at this long. I still don't even know what trolling means. I'm not even sure if the none use of NYT and WP applies outside 'Latest'. I start getting confused and seeing pit falls everywhere.

I have absolutely no problem with 'Sean' decisions. I might have hoped for somewhere between 'Latest' and Miscellaneous, but accept that to.

Does anyone seriously believe that your regular poster is out to cause problems for moderators. I suppose I shouldn't mention any consideration for quality of quantity. Both these only give you more bother.

When I started postings first, I made beginners mistakes. I got help with PM from some generous posters. Others were insulting of a beginner. If I had a less thick skin and didn't get the PMs. I would have been gone. Business lesson - first impressions last.

[Matt W]

No, we don't believe posters are out to cause problems, in any way! I reckon this could/should've ended up in 'News' - but, to be honest, there are so many Israel threads in there already....

[Caduceus]

Just get a login from http://www.bugmenot.com/. No biggie.

[righthand]

Quote by: Caduceus Just get a login from http://www.bugmenot.com/. No biggie.

Very good Caduceus. Do you need to use it for each site separately. Can you explain it to an old virgin like me?

How would this help solve the "the NY-Times article has to be something everyone can read, without requiring subscription" problem.

And would you have an idea as to the 'majors' list. Other than the BBC, who are extra extra tame lately, are there another foreign 'majors'

I feel that I now have the boat but no paddles, so if someone is offering help, then I'm grabbing.

Long way from "Back lash against principled Presbyterian & Protestant Churches stand."

[righthand]

Update

Presbyterian Church is unfair in targeting Israel for divestment
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...n/12423061.htm
MercuryNews ...Posted on Fri, Aug. 19, 2005 ...By Rebecca Kuiken

This month, the Presbyterian Church of the United States took the next step in its plan to sell its investments in companies that do business in Israel. It announced the list of companies, including Motorola and United Technologies, that it intends to target. As a Presbyterian clergywoman with missionary roots in the Middle East, a strong commitment to human rights and peace, and a deep love of interfaith dialogue, I am dismayed and heartbroken by my denomination's actions regarding divestment. Not only has divestment, even ``selective divestment,'' contradicted and undermined a half-century of the church's commitment to a two-state solution, it has seriously eroded a much-valued relationship with the Jewish community. For over 50 years, the Presbyterian Church has affirmed the rights of Israel and the Palestinians to exist within their own safe and secure borders. Church leaders cannot point backward to past ``even-handed'' commitments while we now place our political weight solely upon the Israeli side of the Middle East teeter-totter and call it balanced. Christianity has a deplorable track record on relationships with Muslims and Jews. Most Christians alive today have not participated in this history, yet it is a legacy that persists in its capacity to fuel memory, fear and reactivity.

The Rev. Rebecca Kuiken is a Presbyterian pastor of the Stone Church of Willow Glen in San Jose and moderator of the San Jose Presbytery.

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Same old story. They say anti-Israel is anti-Jew. Big fat lie.

Agree, agree! I wish all US citizens saw a map of Palistine and realized what Israel did to Palistine. Palistine is one peice of land, but has been reduced to reservations separated by Isreal towns and cut off from each other with Israel road blocks, where Palistinians have been shamed, unreasonably detained and at time dying because of being prevented from getting to a hospital. Also, Israel controls the water and in some areas of Palistine, people are dying of conditions caused by a lack of water.

Ever since I became aware of what happened to Palistine, biased media has hit on a sensitive nerve. We should see the same media that is presented to the Arab countries.
Then we would understanding why there is hatred of the US. I feel awful looking at front page pictures of hurt Jews, which triger my memory of pictures of a Palestinian father trying to shelter his son from Israel bullets with his own body, and Palestinian women futilely trying to defend their homes from Israel bull dozers, and the destruction of Palestinian orchards. Our media has ignored these things, while make the occasional pain of Israelis front page news and TV news. This is not unbias media, and it does not fit the ideals of democracy to be so biased. This bias causes me an anger that smolders whenever I think of US support of the invasion of mid east countries. US citizens are no where near informed enough to support these acts of war in good conscience. A nation that is proud of independent thinking, is unfortunately, more so, a nation of Christian sheep, easily malnipulated by a small group of men who imagine they are leading a dynasty, as empirors of old.

[righthand]

Quote by: Athena Agree, agree! I wish all US citizens saw a map of Palistine and realized what Israel did to Palistine. Palistine is one piece of land, but has been reduced to reservations separated by Israel towns and cut off from each other with Israel road blocks, where Palestinians have been shamed, unreasonably detained and at time dying because of being prevented from getting to a hospital. Also, Israel controls the water and in some areas of Palistine, people are dying of conditions caused by a lack of water. Ever since I became aware of what happened to Palistine, biased media has hit on a sensitive nerve. We should see the same media that is presented to the Arab countries. Then we would understanding why there is hatred of the US. I feel awful looking at front page pictures of hurt Jews, which trigger my memory of pictures of a Palestinian father trying to shelter his son from Israel bullets with his own body, and Palestinian women futilely trying to defend their homes from Israel bulldozers, and the destruction of Palestinian orchards. Our media has ignored these things, while make the occasional pain of Israelis front page news and TV news. This is not unbiased media, and it does not fit the ideals of democracy to be so biased. This bias causes me an anger that smolders whenever I think of US support of the invasion of mid east countries. US citizens are no where near informed enough to support these acts of war in good conscience. A nation that is proud of independent thinking, is unfortunately, more so, a nation of Christian sheep, easily manipulated by a small group of men who imagine they are leading a dynasty, as emperors of old.

I agree, agree, agree also! And last week when illegal settlers poured acid over unarmed police and soldiers, where did US sympathies lie. Judging my the hard nosed studio commentators, it wasn't with the police. I wondered if a tenth of that restrained was shown by the police and army to the Palestinians, would the situation be where it is now. The sickening eight bullets in the face of the Brazilian in London is an Israeli stratagem.



Radicalized Palestinian Christian Group Pushes Protestant Churches Toward Divestment

New York, NY, August 23, 2005 … The recent effort by various mainline Protestant denominations to adopt a policy of divestment against companies doing business with Israel has been pushed from behind the scenes by a radicalized Jerusalem-based Palestinian Christian group. According to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theology Center is a driving force behind the churches' anti-Israel divestment campaigns, actively promoting divestment through speakers and documents that provide a blueprint for churches to use divestment as a tool to pressure Israel. "The Sabeel Center has long played a behind-the-scenes role in encouraging churches to adopt divestment as a tool to pressure Israel," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "Leaders of the mainline Protestant denominations have routinely welcomed Sabeel leaders as guests at conventions and national meetings, and the influence of Sabeel in advocating for divestment is indisputable, however out of sync their rhetoric is with the people in the pews. Sabeel is the engine that is driving the divestment campaign."

Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theology Center

"The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry."

'hatred, prejudice and bigotry' look to thine own eye. Is that how it goes?

[Athena]

Okay, I had to google the references to events, and am now ready to reply. All this news comes with discussion of George Washington's Farewell Address and his warning for the US to stay out of foreign politics. This relates a lot what the US founding fathers had to say about taxes and war and religion. Yes, and religion.

As I see it, the US should have never begun supporting a religiously controlled country that took land from people by force, for purely religious reasons. Am I nuts, or is there something wrong about calling Israel a democracy? Democracy is rule by reason, not rule by religious authority. Christians distorted the history of democracy, claiming they created democracy, and their claim to the whole of the US is as twisted as the Jewish claim to Palestinian land. No, democracy comes from philosophy and is about reason, not religion. When the US entangled itself with Israel, it committed a wrong that was opposed to democratic principles. The Christian right claiming all the US as their own has also been a Zionist force contributing to the wrong against those who claimed the land before Zionist took it by force. Those of us who oppose this are not anti semitic, but oppose all religions and all religiously based claims to land.

What a mess religion has made of things. Too bad Israel's youth were taught God gave them the right to claim the land of Palestinians. This is a religious believe, not one based on reason, because without religion there is no justification of the Jewish claim to the land.

[righthand]

Quote by: Athena Okay, I had to Google the references to events, and am now ready to reply. All this news comes with discussion of George Washington's Farewell Address and his warning for the US to stay out of foreign politics. This relates a lot what the US founding fathers had to say about taxes and war and religion. Yes, and religion. As I see it, the US should have never begun supporting a religiously controlled country that took land from people by force, for purely religious reasons. Am I nuts, or is there something wrong about calling Israel a democracy? Democracy is rule by reason, not rule by religious authority. Christians distorted the history of democracy, claiming they created democracy, and their claim to the whole of the US is as twisted as the Jewish claim to Palestinian land. No, democracy comes from philosophy and is about reason, not religion. When the US entangled itself with Israel, it committed a wrong that was opposed to democratic principles. The Christian right claiming all the US as their own has also been a Zionist force contributing to the wrong against those who claimed the land before Zionist took it by force. Those of us who oppose this are not anti semitic, but oppose all religions and all religiously based claims to land. What a mess religion has made of things. Too bad Israel's youth were taught God gave them the right to claim the land of Palestinians. This is a religious believe, not one based on reason, because without religion there is no justification of the Jewish claim to the land.

Great post! Your approach is different. Our conclusions the same.

What I don't figure is what's in it for the US. The US taxpayer is being taken to the cleaners. No matter how many BILLIONS are spent, there is no solution in sight. I do not know of another case where the US poured money down a bottomless hole.

My solution would be to ship out one or the other. Both cannot co-exist.

Think. This week houses are being knocked down. Then houses have to be built for the previous illegal settlers and housing for the Palestinians. The 'illegals' will build on Palestine land again illegally. In a decade or two it will be repeated again. Who pays for this joke!!! The US taxpayer. Why? That's a mystery to me. The US probably paid also for the houses being knocked.

[CENTER]=========[/CENTER]

When Will 'Presbyterian' Cease to Be a Loaded Word?
http://www.jewishexponent.com/ViewArticle.asp?ArtID=783
It's one church after the other in the push for divestment measures against Israel
Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Ever since the Presbyterian Church USA announced its willingness last summer to place economic sanctions on Israel, Jewish-Presbyterian relations seem to have gone from bad to worse. Close to giving up on talks with Presbyterian leaders, Jewish officials say the church's leadership is being swayed by the political agenda of radical Palestinians. The Presbyterian "leadership has been hijacked by a radicalized" Palestinian Christian population that "represents a fraction of the Christian community in Israel," said Rabbi Gary Bretton-Granatoor, interfaith director for the Anti-Defamation League. In the meantime, the flash-points between Jews and Presbyterians are taking their toll. "It may be a generation before 'Presbyterian' means something other than a negative to Jewish leadership," Felson said, adding that "that's not a guilt trip. That's a reality check."