What do you think of the Free State Project?

[Leopard]

Basically, the idea is to move 20,000 people, who are interested in having a smaller government, into a single state with a relatively low population. what happens from there is up to the people.

Take a look at the The Free State Project website and say what you think. Is it just stupid? funny? Interesting? Vital?

I would suggest browsing the Forums under the 'community' heading and see all the activity which is occuring in developing groups, strategies, planning for housing, businesses/jobs, and what the political agenda might look like.

I would say that at least these folks (of which I am one) seem to be serious about trying this, in fact, people have already begun to move 'early' considering that the 'pledge' only 'requires' you to move AFTER 20,000 members have signed up. Shows some strong committment by at least a few.

If you have any questions/critisisms/rants or whatever, lemme know and perhaps I can answer a few.

Although the Free State Project is not a libertarian project, it does have a vast amount of libertarian members. Other groups involved are: Right Democrats, Left republicans, the Constitution Party, the Green Party, Objectivists, Anarchists, Anarchro-Capitalists, Christians, Anti-Christians, Wiccans, and pretty much some sort of representative of any other group one might care to name (except, possibly, socialists or communists). Its quite a 'big tent' and we do have alot of 'friction' between some parts - but it has been amazing to see everyone pull together to reduce the size of government.

BTW: I am a libertarian (with a dash of Ancap thrown in for fun)

thanks for your time,
Michael

[AnonT]

God, I love you people.

Oh, and as for no socialists being involved, there are "libertarian socialists" - basically leftist anarchists. I actually used to be one before I read up a bit on economic libertarianism.

[Packratt]

Go for it!

It'll be fun to watch a bunch of feudal warlord wannabes run off and try to enslave each other after they can't get any workers to come with them since they all want to be the wealthy autocratic slave-owning boss.

Hurry up now! Run along! I hear Alaska doesn't have many people!

[antayla]

I'm not a feudal warlord wannabe... is it necessary to call names? I got arrested protesting the war. It turned me into some kinda hardcore business junkie, cause that seems the only way to stop this crap...

So I'm... er... I guess a free-market communist. For lack of a better word. I don't trust that anyone else can control my life in my best interest, but cooperation IS how us humans get things done...

But, I dunno if the FSP will work cause it's in New Hampshire
You should see some of the business ideas we come up with! I would give you a link to that forum, but I can't cause it won't let me

Check it at http://www.freestateproject.com, under "community" under "message board" in the New Hampshire section of the board under "businesses/employment."

[Red_Emma]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,)
It'll be fun to watch a bunch of feudal warlord wannabes run off and try to enslave each other after they can't get any workers to come with them since they all want to be the wealthy autocratic slave-owning boss.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>


What gives you the ideas that any person who moved there would have the desire to be a "wealthy autocratic Slave-owning boss". They are leftist arnt they? and anyway it cant be any worse than the millions that already exist around the US...why not take a chance?> maybe it might be some kind of Utopia? Possibly Participatory Economics could be used....?

[damnrad]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Leopard,)
Basically, the idea is to move 20,000 people, who are interested in having a smaller government, into a single state with a relatively low population. what happens from there is up to the people.

Take a look at the The Free State Project website and say what you think. Is it just stupid? funny? Interesting? Vital?

I would suggest browsing the Forums under the 'community' heading and see all the activity which is occuring in developing groups, strategies, planning for housing, businesses/jobs, and what the political agenda might look like.

I would say that at least these folks (of which I am one) seem to be serious about trying this, in fact, people have already begun to move 'early' considering that the 'pledge' only 'requires' you to move AFTER 20,000 members have signed up. Shows some strong committment by at least a few.

If you have any questions/critisisms/rants or whatever, lemme know and perhaps I can answer a few.

Although the Free State Project is not a libertarian project, it does have a vast amount of libertarian members. Other groups involved are: Right Democrats, Left republicans, the Constitution Party, the Green Party, Objectivists, Anarchists, Anarchro-Capitalists, Christians, Anti-Christians, Wiccans, and pretty much some sort of representative of any other group one might care to name (except, possibly, socialists or communists). Its quite a 'big tent' and we do have alot of 'friction' between some parts - but it has been amazing to see everyone pull together to reduce the size of government.

BTW: I am a libertarian (with a dash of Ancap thrown in for fun)

thanks for your time,
Michael<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

It has been tried before by various groups with widely-varied ideologies. It's only worked for one group -- the Mormons.

I disagree with capitalist-libertarians (as opposed to anarchists: socialist-libertarians), but it's their right to try it.

[Catch 22]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,)
God, I love you people.

Oh, and as for no socialists being involved, there are "libertarian socialists" - basically leftist anarchists. I actually used to be one before I read up a bit on economic libertarianism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

plus the green party is not exactly pro capitalist, we're socialist to a large degree.

as for your project good luck, it'l certainly be interesting. However the feds will undoubtedly try and waco it.

[IronYuppie]

I think it's misguided, arrogant, and bordeline treason.

Well I agree that it's certainly misguided, and can you imagine what our government would do to such a group if they tried to embarass us like that?

[SeanWah]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (damnrad)
It has been tried before by various groups with widely-varied ideologies. It's only worked for one group -- the Mormons.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Actually, a large group of socialists flocked to Vermont, which happens to be NH's neighbor (and part of the reason NH was chosen). And believe me, it's worked there.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I think it's misguided, arrogant, and bordeline treason.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Treason? Moving in pursuit of my right to life, liberty, and happiness is treason? Working within the system to effect change is treason?
I think you're misguided, arrogant, and fascist, but I guess where we differ is that I would die defending your right to be a misguided, arrogant fascist.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt)
It'll be fun to watch a bunch of feudal warlord wannabes run off and try to enslave each other after they can't get any workers to come with them since they all want to be the wealthy autocratic slave-owning boss.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
You have some misconceptions about libertarianism. The economic side of it is as much in favor of defending the rights and interests of the consumer as it is about the businessman. I happen to diverge from libertarians on a few such issues, but overall, you have to be either misinformed or brutally dishonest to believe the ideal encourages or supports Third World-style sweatshopping in any way.

Anyway, yes, I support the FSP and I'm actively a member.

[The Black Flag]

I think this is a great idea, if people didnt try new things because other pig headed bastards thought it was stupid, we would be driving cars with square wheels. So to the people that don't like the idea, oh well, fuck you, don't go, don't worry, just stay under this governments nonsense ways> just go back to sleep.

[IronYuppie]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (SeanWah,)



Treason? Moving in pursuit of my right to life, liberty, and happiness is treason? Working within the system to effect change is treason?
I think you're misguided, arrogant, and fascist, but I guess where we differ is that I would die defending your right to be a misguided, arrogant fascist.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>


You dont have the right to declare yourself or a group of people a sovereign nation. How in the hell is succeeding from the US (which is what this comes down to) "working within the system?"

All the liberties and trappings of civilization you enjoy are due to the collective agreement of the citizens of the US. If you dont like that I suggest you find a deserted island somewhere and you and you fellow dale gribble types can go have a blast there until you overdose on your own collective hubris. Without the government you people despise so much you'd be under rule by a foreign power, or maybe squatting in a cave shoving berries up your nose with a stick; either way you'd be in a sorry state.

I see where you're coming from though, that is I think I have a pretty good picture of the psychology that drives you. Someone disagrees with you, they're a fascist. Someone doens't like your cause, they're ignorant. At least I know enough about the movement to make a semi-informed decision. You're categorizing me in all sorts of nasty ways based on one sentence from me, yet you know nothing about me or my beliefs. I'd guess it's this attitude of hasty hubris that lead you to believe in something like FSP in the first place.

The primary difficulty I see with FSP is the lack of focus as well as the questionable dedication to freedom. In one FSP related forum in which I was involved for some time, it became clear that there are many socialists or other statists who simply wanted to control the power to control others, rather than to minimalize or abolish such power in the form of the state.

One of the previous iterations of the FSP one of the requirements was that one was to be politically active, including voting. The original number of 20,000 was determined because it is the number needed to affect elections. So the rhetoric now does not really jibe well with the underlying tenets.

[Poetic_Justice]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You dont have the right to declare yourself or a group of people a sovereign nation. How in the hell is succeeding from the US (which is what this comes down to) "working within the system?"<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
I've always wondered... WHY don't people have the 'right' to secede?
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
All the liberties and trappings of civilization you enjoy are due to the collective agreement of the citizens of the US. If you dont like that I suggest you find a deserted island somewhere and you and you fellow dale gribble types can go have a blast there until you overdose on your own collective hubris. Without the government you people despise so much you'd be under rule by a foreign power, or maybe squatting in a cave shoving berries up your nose with a stick; either way you'd be in a sorry state. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
First of all, I love how you put up the defense from the ENEMIES thing.. I mean we all have so much to worry from these ENEMIES attacking us from every side... Ever wondered why they're hating you? Naaa, didn't think so...
Second, you mention all the liberties and trappings of civilization... But I can show you the early histories of Canada and the US where government was virtually non-existent, and life was quite good... Also, government doesn't give us liberties, it takes them away... liberties are natural... government is a way of limiting them to harness people to one leader, or one cause...
Third, it'd be nice to move to a deserted island, but then who would you guys have to teach you the error of your ways? I for one think I can help others realize the folly of government better from within than from without...
Finally, what mkes you think libertarianism would dissolve invention and technology? The greatest leaps in invention and technology happen when government is least involved... See: Britain, America, pre govt. involvement.
and the reason he called you a fascist is because you say that to disparage his government is treason...
May I remind you of the oath your military takes? They don't claim allegiance to the government, thoguh the President is their CIC, they give allegiance to the defense of the people and the land of the United States... He can easily be a patriotic American without supporting the govt. because the govt. is not America... the people and the land is America...

[eburchelli]

What is their agenda? Are they going to refuse to pay federal income taxes? It doesn't matter. The FBI will be all over them like flies on shit, waiting for another Clinton/Reno type order to revisit WACO.

Yuppie wrote:

<< I think it's misguided, arrogant, and bordeline treason.>>

If you don't like it, don't move to New Hampshire. You still have 49 slave states to pick from.

Also secession is not the plan even among the Free Staters themselves, much less the overall population of NH.

eburchelli wrote:

<<The FBI will be all over them like flies on shit, waiting for another Clinton/Reno type order to revisit WACO.>>

If that is true than a project like this is needed all the more. But I don't buy it. Too many of us already and too spread out even after the move.

Arrests of Free Staters are actually a great recruiting tool...provides free publicity. But only 2 have been arrested so far out of 5K, no audits or other harrassment reported yet.

[Packratt]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Red_Emma,)

What gives you the ideas that any person who moved there would have the desire to be a "wealthy autocratic Slave-owning boss". They are leftist arnt they? and anyway it cant be any worse than the millions that already exist around the US...why not take a chance?> maybe it might be some kind of Utopia? Possibly Participatory Economics could be used....?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Leftist? You think that people who believe that wealth and money should be the ultimate determining method of how much freedom a person is worthy of are leftists?

Wow, that's a spin on what it means to be a leftist that I've never heard.

If you think libertarians are so far to the left and are so hip on "freedom", then ask one about their thoughts on indentured servitude and listen as they try to justify slavery as a voluntary arangement while keeping in mind that the only choice involved for the slave is the one between a painfull death and servitude and that this is what they mean by voluntary.

When a libertarian says freedom, they mean it only in a limited sense, that they only wish to have their own freedom to do whatever they want TO you.

[Packratt]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (antayla,)
I'm not a feudal warlord wannabe... is it necessary to call names? I got arrested protesting the war.  It turned me into some kinda hardcore business junkie, cause that seems the only way to stop this crap...

So I'm... er... I guess a free-market communist.  For lack of a better word. I don't trust that anyone else can control my life in my best interest, but cooperation IS how us humans get things done...

But, I dunno if the FSP will work cause it's in New Hampshire
You should see some of the business ideas we come up with!  I would give you a link to that forum, but I can't cause it won't let me

Check it at http://www.freestateproject.com, under "community" under "message board" in the New Hampshire section of the board under "businesses/employment."<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Not calling YOU anything... I personally think that if what you said is your belief, then you are simply following the wrong group of people. Your idea, after all, is the absolute antithesis of what all the libertarian's hold dear, which is pure greed and the level of freedom that being a dictator could only bring... The freedom to own others as if they were merely property.

[Poetic_Justice]

What is government, but the idea of one group's having their freedom's at the expense of another's?
Libertarianism espouses the direct opposite, no one person or group's being able to exploit by force or fraud another group's or eprson's freeddoms...