What do you think of the Free State Project?

[penguinsscareme]

You people have it all figured out. No one here is ever open to having their mind changed by the superiority of another idea. You argue into the late hours, never getting any closer to agreeing, just rehashing your self-important opinions.

I don't know that much about politics. But you don't have to have a phd in polisci to know what freedom is.

The Free State Project is going to succeed, even if that means without you. Give the site another look. Forget what you think you know about it. Shed your misconceptions about us. Think about how it COULD work, instead of why it won't.

It's so easy to be a detractor, a cynic. It takes a little something more to give yourself to something and make it work and refuse to be discouraged. Whatever it is, I've got it. I'm going to go. I've got things to do.

And yes, I suppose I am both arrogant and naive. I make no apology for it.

Andrew

Wow, I am so sick about new people from the FSP trying to interupt the lack of bias here. This is for debate if I'm not mistaken. Not a grassroots campaign headquarter

[antayla]

Hmmm... there are quite a few FSP members in this forum actually... methinks Sean has done a bit of farming on the FSP forums

Yeah, we are debating the FSP, dotComa. What do you expect? And if you can find me a non-biased human living on this planet, I'll be freakin amazed....

[Leopard]

yes, there do seem to be alot of FSP members here. Though I like having others' input in defense of my own views, I think it wise not to overwhelm so much that it discourages real questions and dialogue from occuring. Perhaps to help balance things, they need to farm a bit on the 'Communism' boards (is there such an animal left?). Or at least the religious right and the socialised left boards - get some real debate going!

[kharmajunkie]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dotComa,)
Kerry or Edwards have not demonstrated that they're the same as you say. I think they are a more realistic choice for the middle if they want change anytime soon. A vote for a third party is one more educated vote taken out of the system.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

You're right about Edwards but Kerry doesn't inspire me to go out and vote for him. I may anyway but it won't be a vote for Kerry, it will be a vote against Bush.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (antayla,)
Yeah, we are debating the FSP, dotComa. What do you expect? And if you can find me a non-biased human living on this planet, I'll be freakin amazed....<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I don't care if you're biased. Just talk about something interesting, and stop trying to promote your group. I'm here to talk, not see advertisements.

[SeanWah]

We came here to discuss its merits. Those merits were attacked, and I defended them. In order to defend merits, especially against attacks that are not well conceived, you have to understand its basic premises.

"If you don't like it, leave."

[antayla]

It's interesting to me.
It's not my fault you don't find it interesting. You can always ignore the thread after all.. or would you have it deleted because you don't find it interesting? I know some people find ALL politics very boring... so perhaps we should stop discussing them entirely?

[Leopard]

dotcoma,
ok then - what are your problems or questions regarding the topic here or perhaps libertarianism on general? Are there specific issues where you have an extremely hard time believing it would work or perhaps disagree with the 'expected' result of it working?

always interested in talking about things others also find interesting.

Hey Leopard, I don't have questions on it..yet. My problem was just with the whole cultish feel of this topic. All of a sudden I see similar signatures, and get a little creeped out. This place, if you didn't notice is pretty diverse. I just didn't wanna see that go away. No offense to you guys. I'm sure you've all seen those forums that are dominated by people with nazi symbols and german names. I just didn't wanna see my new little spot to get bad

Keep on being activists (that's great), but just don't make 8 million topics on it please I know you haven't yet, I just sensed it was coming I guess.

Dot, are you suggesting that they ought to be activists, but just not very good ones?

Could the similarity in sigs, be a sign of the almost universal desire for basic freedom?

[Leopard]

understand your feeling, dotcoma - the 'cultish' aspect of it all does come across - mostly because of the similiarity of views and useage of words like 'freedom' 'liberty' and alot of anti-government rheotoric. do not despair! what yo are seeing is the fact that libertarianism, and all of its ideas and theories is grounded in one simple philosophical statement: It is simply morally wrong for any person to initiate force or harm or fraud against another. All other ideas flow from this.

it is scarey

[antayla]

Actually I added my sig after I saw Leopard's, cause it looked like a good idea.

[IronYuppie]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (seanwah)
Ironically, if you knew enough about the movement to make a semi-informed decision, you would know that its leaders and the vast majority of its members reject secessionism as a valid form of effecting change. The idea is not merely "being free" but providing a control against which other states can be measured.
Since you're obviously either not informed (and therefore, with respect to your latter statement, a liar) or willfully dishonest, I'll give you the opportunity to retract one of those two statements: either the movement is not arrogant/ignorant/treasonous or you don't know enough about it to make an informed decision.
Pick one.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I completely distrust this group, of course they’re not going to openly advocate secession. They just want to get a group of radicals together and then “what happens next is up to those 20,000.” Of course they give one line of lip service on their web site to denying secessionist tendencies. Go ahead and tie your wagon to this cavalcade of extremist freaks (at least that’s the impression you give others of the typical member), it will go nowhere and you will go nowhere with it. This has been tried before and failed utterly. There are so many internal problems with the idea; registered libertarians hardly are ever willing to vote for the nominated libertarian candidate, and all of a sudden these people are going to come to some common agreement on who to vote for? Nice pipe dream, have fun wasting your life with this charade.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
As are all the unnecessary restrictions of information, movement, ideals, etc. Why do you choose to defend its good points by overlooking its bad ones? Interestingly, again, one of the driving philosophies behind the FSP is that one should be loyal to the country at all times, and loyal to the government when its deserving -- hence, respect what it does right, and try to change what it does wrong.
Besides which, your collective agreement theory is invalid on grounds of duress. In collective agreements, both parties have veto power over who may enter the contract; since the US government is prohibited from exiling citizens, any claim to contract either party has is void.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

“Loyalty when it’s deserving.” Sorry buddy, my loyalties lie with the USA first and any ideology I have second. There is always disagreement as to what form government should take and what policies should be made, but we live in a democracy when everything isn’t always’s as we want it. Of course the less loyal of us will attempt to run off and make our own little state or country, so quick to forget any loyalty to the country and system that enables the freedoms they have. I try to effect change through voting, civil protest, communication with the lawmakers I elect, etc, not by trying to hostilely take over a state of the US. I fell really sorry for the people of NH, if I could help them defend themselves against your ilk I would.
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Now you're being not only misinformed/dishonest about the FSP, you're being misinformed/dishonest about the libertarian ideals behind it. Libertarians as a whole believe the government's only responsibility is to provide for the common defense of the people by establishing a nationalized military and localized police forces. The US would be under no more threat of foreign power than it is now.
Berries up my nose with a stick? Where'd that come from, and furthermore, what does that have to do with anything besides being the poisonous vitriol of an ill-informed mind grasping desperately in the dark for justifications to its poorly conceived arguments predicated almost entirely upon broad misconceptions and sweeping generalizations?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I sure hope you’re not in charge of recruitment, wait maybe I do, as you do nothing to advance the cause with people who may disagree. Again, your arguments are as unsubstantial (and annoying) as ragweed pollen. Most of your talents seem to lie with insulting those who don’t agree with you; you come off as very touchy and borderline neurotic. I mean “poisonous vitiol?” You started the name calling and infantile trash talking, I’ve said nothing that deserves that type of portrayal. Of course you don’t care, you’re probably just letting off repressed homosexual angst.
This rash and zealous attack on me is typical of the “internet loner,” being a student of psychology I see this type of behavior all the time. Usually it means you either have no decent skills in rhetoric, and so are forced to resort to the tactics of the mental midget (calling names); or you’re suffering from some pathology that prevents you from having a rational debate with someone. Or maybe both. Neither are very attractive to any that might take a second look at your movement. Yet another reason you will likely fail.

To certain others: how dare you tie libertarianism so closely to FSP? You act like they’re one and the same, and for me to disagree with one is to disagree with the other. I guess some of you are so wrapped up in this crap you cant see there’s a whole world of diverse opinion both within and outside of the libertarian movement. I have offered no critique nor opinion on Libertarian philosophy; for you to then attack me for being against that philosophy is very misguided.