What do you think of the Free State Project?

[Blef]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt)
Leftist? You think that people who believe that wealth and money should be the ultimate determining method of how much freedom a person is worthy of are leftists?

Wow, that's a spin on what it means to be a leftist that I've never heard.

If you think libertarians are so far to the left and are so hip on "freedom", then ask one about their thoughts on indentured servitude and listen as they try to justify slavery as a voluntary arangement while keeping in mind that the only choice involved for the slave is the one between a painfull death and servitude and that this is what they mean by voluntary.

When a libertarian says freedom, they mean it only in a limited sense, that they only wish to have their own freedom to do whatever they want TO you.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I think you've been fed some inaccurate propaganda about libertarian ideas, or you are confusing libertarians with some other group. Libertarians believe in self-ownership, not other-ownership. A libertarian would never enslave anyone. In fact, the central tenet of libertarianism is the NAP or ZAP, which means non-agression principle, or zero-agression principle.

Here is a popular definition of ZAP by L. Neil Smith

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
"A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim."
- L. Neil Smith
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Self-ownership doesn't require any amount of money to realize. It isn't just for the rich.

Perhaps you might take a few moments to review this brief, basic FAQ about libertarianism. And I'd be curious to know how or where you acquired your negative and inaccurate view of libertarianism.

Libertarian FAQ

[Leopard]

Wow! Holy misconceptions Batman!

maybe this is part of the problem libertarians have always had - people just don't understand the idea, or, they focus on one part and blow it all out of proportion...

I find the distribution graph of the poll quite interesting, perhaps I failed in the questions I posed, but it shows a great divide between two large groups with few inbetween. It might reflect the nature of internet forums also in that most people already have very strict and defined opinions and have staked out a particular viewpoint kind of set in stone (this pertains to all folks, including us libertarians)...

Hiya Dada! Where did you come from? good to see you out and about, in fact I think it was a post of yours in the FSP forums that first directed me out to explore other forums on the net... i lost my 'virginity' in the FSP forums... you helped me get a more well-rounded perspective...

there is a bit of 'clearing up' to do re:misconceptions

PackRat:
Why do you continue to insist that libertarians want to enslave others? Is this only based on what you percieve to be the 'indentured servant' problem? As I posted before, I believe, libertarians are not as a group decided on this issue either way... why would you use such a broad brush regarding one vague subject to characterize the entire philosophy, is it because you cannot find fault with any of the other libertarian ideas? This is like saying all Democrats want to kill everyone (because some promote abortion)

The Free State was voted on, it is New Hampshire. Alaska has nothing to do with the movement. Another example of your uninformed misconceptions.

Leftist? You think that people who believe that wealth and money should be the ultimate determining method of how much freedom a person is worthy of are leftists?
do you even understand what money is? And no, libertarianism does not use wealth as a factor in determining how much freedom one has - the determination of how much freedom one has is simple: if you are HUMAN you are entitled to as much freedom as you want as long as you do not infringe on other peoples freedoms. In other words, everyone is equal in the eyes of government.

If you think libertarians are so far to the left and are so hip on "freedom", then ask one about their thoughts on indentured servitude and listen as they try to justify slavery as a voluntary arangement while keeping in mind that the only choice involved for the slave is the one between a painfull death and servitude and that this is what they mean by voluntary.
if this is in reference to my recent post then you have misunderstood me. First, the issue of Indentured Servitude is not one that all libertarians agree on, not by any majority. Second, please explain to me what is wrong with a person VOLUNTARILY contracting himself into a period of indentured service for a fee or whatever else they would like for exchange? Secondly, tell me why it is ANYONE's business other than the people between which this arrangement is being made (unless force or fraud are used)?

When a libertarian says freedom, they mean it only in a limited sense, that they only wish to have their own freedom to do whatever they want TO you.
Please give an example that I have not already refuted - I really am coming to the belief that you have not ever researched, even minimally, what libertarianism is. Not that you should or anything, just that it might help you discuss a subject if you did some research. I know nothing about geology, so I obviously wouldn't go into a forum an start spouting off about one particular geological theory or another... just seems... irrational. I am probably wrong tho.

DammRad:
"It has been tried before by various groups with widely-varied ideologies. It's only worked for one group -- the Mormons.

I disagree with capitalist-libertarians (as opposed to anarchists: socialist-libertarians), but it's their right to try it."
Thank you for recognizing that right. The fact that even a single group was successful indicates that the idea is possible then... by the same token, before the United States, there was NO other example in history of our form of government ever existing - wasn't it good that the founders didn't let this 'fact' stop them from trying?

IronYuppie:
Treason? to move from one state to another and participate in our government by voting? Please explain.

At least I know enough about the movement to make a semi-informed decision.
by your own statements regarding this being some sort of a secessionist movement you have proved your above statement as false.

Dotcoma:
"Well I agree that it's certainly misguided, and can you imagine what our government would do to such a group if they tried to embarass us like that?"
um, isn't it 'our' government also and who is this 'us' and why would you be embarassed?
I was embarassed when our president was caught breaking a solemn vow to his wife, proving himself to be a liar before his countrymen and the world... I would not be embarassed by any group of people who wanted to try to use their voting power to obtain a different system of governance - isn't that EXACTLY what voting is anyways?

Lightbearer:
"In one FSP related forum in which I was involved for some time, it became clear that there are many socialists or other statists who simply wanted to control the power to control others, rather than to minimalize or abolish such power in the form of the state."
What FSP forum? Is the thread still there that I can see who said what? any links? Did these people you talked to represent the FSP, were even members of the FSP? Do you remember anything they said, specifically that caused you to believe as you do?

I ask because I have found very very little of what you describe here in the FSP forums, talking to other members.

eburchelli:
"What is their agenda? Are they going to refuse to pay federal income taxes? It doesn't matter. The FBI will be all over them like flies on shit, waiting for another Clinton/Reno type order to revisit WACO."
Did you visit the website link I provided so that you had the ability to form your own opinion? Agenda?? - well, the only 'goal' is to move 20,000 people that all believe in reducing government greatly into the same state - then see if any change occurs politically. Refuse to pay Fed income taxes? Why would they all want to go to jail or face stiff fines - no, this is not part of the 'plan'.

well, thank you all so far for participating, I think that we have a long way to go before even understanding each other, let alone holding logical debate... but I guess we can still all pretend...

michael

[castille]

I like it. Unfortunately I don't live in the US so I can't join just to check it out.

However, for those of you who are there, remember not to offend the US government. Don't start making your own army, don't sell drugs, don't vote. Just stay there peacefully, and soon more people will join up.

Keep in mind smaller communities are easier to manage. If you grow, instead of building a 1-million libertarian paradise, build lots of 40,000 libertarian communities. That reduces crime, corruption, and control.

[kharmajunkie]

Iron Yuppie, First, you don't know what treason is because that's not what they're doing; you should keep dictionary.com on your favorites file. They're not seceding either, by the way. I don't personally think it will work but the movement is not only legal; it's truly American and grassroots because they're trying to work within the system. If Republicans actually stood on their platform instead of letting the fundamentalist right call the shots, we wouldn't need a free state project. We would have more states rights and less federal
government. Instead we have the Repubs trying to prove that they're just as two-faced as the Dems.

[bugsbunny04]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (IronYuppie,)
I think it's misguided, arrogant, and bordeline treason.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Hey, nuckleheaded doc, we aren't going to hostile take it over! We are going to migrate, and register to vote. Ballots, not bullets. Ponder: how can voting be treason? How can moving be treason? If somebody who is liberal and gay moves to california because he does not like Alabama's law against f*cking each other in the *ss, did he just commit treason? No he did'nt. If I go up to the county court house and register to vote, have I just commited treason?

You don't have a very intellegent argument since democrats and republicans alike promote voting drives to get as many people to vote as possible. Are they commiting treason? Andy Rooney was whinning 4 years ago on national television about how the 1/2 of our voting age population that did not show up were unamerican. Is a traitor? No, but you're a f*cking idiot. Need proof? See above.

As for misguided, social security and healthcare are too but the people still demand them.

As for arrogant, so is Bill Clinton but he got elected, at least three times, or more depending on how many times the state with 5,000,000 people and 15 last names elected him Gov.

[bugsbunny04]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
I like it. Unfortunately I don't live in the US so I can't join just to check it out.

However, for those of you who are there, remember not to offend the US government. Don't start making your own army, don't sell drugs, don't vote. Just stay there peacefully, and soon more people will join up.

Keep in mind smaller communities are easier to manage. If you grow, instead of building a 1-million libertarian paradise, build lots of 40,000 libertarian communities. That reduces crime, corruption, and control.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Response to 1st paragraph: Immigrate. Write the INS, fill out the paper work, break a law that is illegal in your country and not over hear then claim assylum (JUST KIDDING!) But do get in touch with the INS, because yes, you can join.

2nd: We can't make our own army, though we will probably improve the National Guard, and there will be a lot more of those "Assault Weapons" in NH and probably some Class III hardware too, in private hands, but we aren't making our own army. We are not going to press the drug issue. If the feds want to inforce the drug laws in NH, after we are in control, they will do it with 0% cooperation. As for not voting, you don't understand why we told the king to f*ck off in the first place do you?

3rd: Libertarians generally prefer such settings anyway, or at least I do.

[Jackney Sneeb]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (IronYuppie,)

You dont have the right to declare yourself or a group of people a sovereign nation. How in the hell is succeeding from the US (which is what this comes down to) "working within the system?"

All the liberties and trappings of civilization you enjoy are due to the collective agreement of the citizens of the US.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Bullshit. What "agreement" are you talking about?

?This one------>Social Contract:

WHEREAS I wish to reside on the North American continent, and
WHEREAS the United States Government controls the area of the
continent on which I wish to reside, and WHEREAS tacit or implied
contracts are vague and therefore unenforceable,

I agree to the following terms:

SECTION 1: I will surrender a percentage of my property to the
Government. The actual percentage will be determined by the
Government and will be subject to change at any time. The amount
to be surrendered may be based on my income, the value of my pro-
perty, the value of my purchases, or any other criteria the
Government chooses. To aid the Government in determining the
percentage, I will apply for a Government identification number
that I will use in all my major financial transactions.

SECTION 2: Should the Government demand it, I will surrender my
liberty for a period of time determined by the government and
typically no shorter than two years. During that time, I will
serve the Government in any way it chooses, including military
service in which I may be called upon to sacrifice my life.

SECTION 3: I will limit my behavior as demanded by the govern-
ment. I will consume only those drugs permitted by the Govern-
ment. I will limit my sexual activities to those permitted by
the Government. I will forsake religious beliefs that conflict
with the Government's determination of propriety. More limits
may be imposed at any time.

SECTION 4: In consideration for the above, the Government will
permit me to find employment, subject to limits that will be
determined by the Government. These limits may restrict my
choice of career or the wages I may accept.

SECTION 5: The Government will permit me to reside in the area
of North America which it controls. Also, the Government will
permit me to speak freely, subject to limits determined by the
Government's Congress and Supreme Court.

SECTION 6: The Government will attempt to protect my life and my
claim to the property it has allowed me to keep. I agree not to
hold the Government liable if it fails to protect me or my property.

SECTION 7: The Government will offer various services to me.
The nature and extent of these services will be determined by the
Government and are subject to change at any time.

SECTION 8: The Government will determine whether I may vote for
certain Government officials. The influence of my vote will vary
inversely with the number of voters, and I understand that it
typically will be minuscule. I agree not to hold any elected
Government officials liable for acting against my best interests
or for breaking promises, even if those promises motivated me to
vote for them.

SECTION 9: I agree that the Government may hold me fully liable
if I fail to abide by the above terms. In that event, the
Government may confiscate any property that I have not previously
surrendered to it, and may imprison me for a period of time to be
determined by the Government. I also agree that the Government
may alter the terms of this contract at any time.


---------------------------------- ---------------
signature date

Copyright 1989 by Robert E. Alexander.
May be distributed freely.


If you're not happy with those terms, you're free to leave the government's country.

--Jackney Sneeb

[antayla]

I wonder how they can Waco us if there is no real structure to Waco. The only formal structure here is the FSP itself; all the members of the FSP are respectively responsible for their actions. I certainly will not participate in any violent acts... and if I have my way, I will not make enough "money" to pay taxes anyways. I would really like to see the gov't try to Waco us for common human decency. I'm not scared.

And besides, as far as secession goes, apparently the British Empire also thought the Americans had no right to secede either. Of course, anyone who has really read up on it knows it was all a clever propaganda war by the rich elite in America to stir up sentiment against the British to get the right to slaughter the native Americans (er, try reading "A people's history of the united states" by Howard Zinn.) But HEY! Maybe we can finally have the revolution we wanted instead of the one we got And we won't even have to kill anyone to do it. I for one am excited, and will have my revolution whether or not it's the FSP that does it.

[eburchelli]

Leopard: Did you visit the website link I provided so that you had the ability to form your own opinion? Agenda?? - well, the only 'goal' is to move 20,000 people that all believe in reducing government greatly into the same state - then see if any change occurs politically.
====================================================================
Unfortunately, I don't click on links because I don't know what to expect. If the information isn't in the body of the post, I reply on what is available. However, I was not criticizing the idea of 20,000 people coming together and trying to change things through their votes. I don't think it will make that much difference. If you could get 200,000 maybe. But probably not.

[antayla]

I think what is more important than 20000 people moving to New Hampshire is that nearly 5k poeple have come together with similar goals in life. Imagine what 5000 people can do, even if the move never happens... we have a sweet network there...

[kharmajunkie]

I don't think he looked at the site if he's making Waco comparisons.
Although I haven't been on the boards there in a while, I always found
the people there to be peaceful, free thinkers that don't even engage in violent rhetoric, let alone advocate violence; or separatism for that matter. Any Waco comparison is ridiculous.

[bentodd]

I think the free state project is one of the best groups for Libertarians. FSP has helped to bring Libertarian politics to the mainstream, helped the Libertarian party by creating news and publicity. It made all the mainstream news here in Vermont. Interviews with NH LP members on CBS. Just more proof that the time has come for the Libertarian movement.

Last but not least it will give America a true example of how well a Libertarian society works.

Benjamin Todd
The Gary Nolan activist committee
http://groups.yahoo.com/gary-nolan-activist-committee

http://www.garynolan.com

[Kyran]

I heard about the FSP from Neal Boortz months ago.

Problem #1: The state of New Hampshire is populating faster than the FSP organization.

It's not working, improve your recruiting strategy! Some 13,000 new people became a part of NH the other year.

http://eire.census.gov/popest/data/states/...-EST2003-03.php

Problem #2: The FSP needs to VERIFY that people are actually joining them.

You guys should require all enlistees to mail by postage a bank balance receipt to prove they are prepared to go. Any idiot can say "sure, I'll go with you" but never does everybody do what they say they're gonna do. This is basic recruiting; it reflects the intelligence of the people behind your organization. Until the move happens, you have no clue how many real members the FSP has.

Problem #3: Who's gonna create the jobs for the 20,000 people who move into NH?

You could bring your businesses with you. But unplanned spontaneous decisions like this are not going to go without problems. I would expect a serious movement to list the skills and entrepreneurial capabilities of each and every member to ensure victory.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know the truth hurts, but if you want this to work then you need several core improvements; especially in your leadership. You aren't going to get libertarianism from the Green Party or libertarian-socialists. Sorry, but libertarianism is 100% capitalist. I don't want to take hope away from you. Faith is only as good as the object you place it in.

Suggestions:
--New leadership with hands-on experience AND success
--Training program in basic recruiting
--Census of member skills and true dedication level (bank balance)
--Change target state to a more realistic option
--Expel radicals and other libertarian-wannabes from your organization
--Develop meetings; get members involved in building the organization

To my knowledge, the FSP does not train members in recruiting. Read their page. Top priority seems to be paying a "president" of their organization and raising money. So much for the cause. Remember, evangelists will get you all excited and then ask for your money.

It is near impossible in recruiting to gain any substantial following when you do not display a sense of confidence. Trust me, because I have been an MLMer, a telemarketer, a retailer, and have been trained by professionals.

In telemarketing, the salesman has a sheet of paper in front of him with Rebuttals on it. What's a rebuttal? It's a Frequently Asked Question that he is prepared to respond to. The telemarketer is trained not to falter or "surrender" to what may seem to be wild claims by those he calls. It's nothing unusual to him; he sees it every day. His goal is clear: win friends not arguments. He pursues his goal to the result of a sale, without being offended or surprised.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
So to the people that don't like the idea, oh well, fuck you, don't go, don't worry, just stay under this governments nonsense ways> just go back to sleep<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Amazing recruiting system, Black Flag. You managed to gain a total of 0 members with your post; a complete waste of your time and life. I hope you feel better now. Look, do you people want to win or does the challenge of accomplishing something frighten you? Nothing good is ever easy.

You can win. You just have to do what winners do.

[Packratt]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Kyran,)

Amazing recruiting system, Black Flag. You managed to gain a total of 0 members with your post; a complete waste of your time and life. I hope you feel better now. Look, do you people want to win or does the challenge of accomplishing something frighten you? Nothing good is ever easy.

You can win. You just have to do what winners do.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

That's the whole problem, all these kids rush over this place like steamrollers, insulting anyone and everyone who doesn't share their groupthink. Sure, a few of them are decent enough, tolerating dissenting opinions enough to explain themselves reasonably. But most of them are just scrolling the same old insulting crap all over the place, pushing down any discussions that don't have to deal with their little fiefdom dreams.

They are freeper wannabes. If they really wanted to get some actual support, they wouldn't assault boards like this, they would put forth a minimal presence, their most reasonable and persuasive person, and gradually reel people into considering their stance instead of shoving it down their throats like some dictator wannabes. "my way or the highway"! Bah!

They don't care about what skillsets they can gather, they all just want to be their own little fuedal lords... All executives and owners with no real workers allowed. It'll be fun to watch them go broke and starve to death while their infrastructure and delivery systems go to crap. All bosses and no indians, hoping to buy their freedom with bank accounts instead of hard work and sacrifice.

Let them go to their own island, good riddance!

[Leopard]

PackRat,
if, by some crazy chance, this project succeeds in gathering 20,000 liberty minded folks in a single state, and they do in fact promote a change in that state's government AND the results are actually 'positive' (like the economy grows significantly greater than all other states, that wages increase, that there are less drug addicts, less violence and criminals, that the children are better educated, etc etc)... would YOU then conceed that the freedom expoused by libertarians and the system they propose is not only viable, but that it quite possibly is 'better' than thecurrent one?

(in addition: that there is NOT this strange effect you see coming into being of slavery and trampling of individual rights)

michael

[Packratt]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Leopard,)
PackRat,
if, by some crazy chance, this project succeeds in gathering 20,000 liberty minded folks in a single state, and they do in fact promote a change in that state's government AND the results are actually 'positive' (like the economy grows significantly greater than all other states, that wages increase, that there are less drug addicts, less violence and criminals, that the children are better educated, etc etc)... would YOU then conceed that the freedom expoused by libertarians and the system they propose is not only viable, but that it quite possibly is 'better' than thecurrent one?

(in addition: that there is NOT this strange effect you see coming into being of slavery and trampling of individual rights)

michael<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Oh, trust me, I hope it's not some crazy chance, I hope you get all the like minded people just like you together in one spot, I know what will happen.

I tell you what. Michael, I read a few tidbits from your message board, I know how some of you think and I know what kind of society that will build. So let's agree on some measures then, how do we determine if you are a success or failure? I have different views of that than you do.

Let's say there will be an aggregate standard of living, we will determine your success by measuring poverty rates, death rates and average lifespans, homelessless rates, a slavery index (how many people hold indentured slaves), hunger rates, and some measure of how much you depend on state and federal services... amoung other things I'm sure... We'll see what kind of society you build.

We'll set all these rates up in comparison to the same statistics collected for each nation and see how free your society is, just how fair it is to ALL it's citizens, not just it's wealthy. Judging by the "let the poor die as god intended" and "people should be free to starve to death" comments in your message board, I already know I'll win any bet you make.

[eburchelli]

I hope no one thinks I am comparing it to Waco. My comments regarding that, were not to compare but to show that the FBI and other law enforcement will be all over them. Because any group that shows it can stand alone together and not be intimidated, is considered dangerous until proven otherwise or eliminated.

[kharmajunkie]

Eburch, I see what you're saying and sorry if I jumped at the word "Waco". I'm a little protective of the FSP, I'm a member myself and would like to see a little bit of revolution thrown into to modern
America. We are stagnating under a two party system and the middle is the majority and we need to stand up and fight. This upcoming election is already turning out to be more fixed than a Don King promotion. Nader's back because he's a self important prick (I wouldn't be surprised if he has a cancelled check from the RNC). Bush has no conscience and no respect for the rest of the world. And John Kerry was Skull&Bones also; two years ahead of Bush at Yale.
So contrary to popular opinion, the majority is not represented in America and I hope that the FSP succeeds and that other grassroots organizations pop up.

Kerry or Edwards have not demonstrated that they're the same as you say. I think they are a more realistic choice for the middle if they want change anytime soon. A vote for a third party is one more educated vote taken out of the system.

[SeanWah]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You dont have the right to declare yourself or a group of people a sovereign nation. How in the hell is succeeding from the US (which is what this comes down to) "working within the system?"<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I see where you're coming from though, that is I think I have a pretty good picture of the psychology that drives you. Someone disagrees with you, they're a fascist. Someone doens't like your cause, they're ignorant. At least I know enough about the movement to make a semi-informed decision.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Ironically, if you knew enough about the movement to make a semi-informed decision, you would know that its leaders and the vast majority of its members reject secessionism as a valid form of effecting change. The idea is not merely "being free" but providing a control against which other states can be measured.
Since you're obviously either not informed (and therefore, with respect to your latter statement, a liar) or willfully dishonest, I'll give you the opportunity to retract one of those two statements: either the movement is not arrogant/ignorant/treasonous or you don't know enough about it to make an informed decision.
Pick one.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
All the liberties and trappings of civilization you enjoy are due to the collective agreement of the citizens of the US.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
As are all the unnecessary restrictions of information, movement, ideals, etc. Why do you choose to defend its good points by overlooking its bad ones? Interestingly, again, one of the driving philosophies behind the FSP is that one should be loyal to the country at all times, and loyal to the government when its deserving -- hence, respect what it does right, and try to change what it does wrong.
Besides which, your collective agreement theory is invalid on grounds of duress. In collective agreements, both parties have veto power over who may enter the contract; since the US government is prohibited from exiling citizens, any claim to contract either party has is void.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Without the government you people despise so much you'd be under rule by a foreign power, or maybe squatting in a cave shoving berries up your nose with a stick; either way you'd be in a sorry state.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Now you're being not only misinformed/dishonest about the FSP, you're being misinformed/dishonest about the libertarian ideals behind it. Libertarians as a whole believe the government's only responsibility is to provide for the common defense of the people by establishing a nationalized military and localized police forces. The US would be under no more threat of foreign power than it is now.
Berries up my nose with a stick? Where'd that come from, and furthermore, what does that have to do with anything besides being the poisonous vitriol of an ill-informed mind grasping desperately in the dark for justifications to its poorly conceived arguments predicated almost entirely upon broad misconceptions and sweeping generalizations?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
If you think libertarians are so far to the left and are so hip on "freedom", then ask one about their thoughts on indentured servitude and listen as they try to justify slavery as a voluntary arangement while keeping in mind that the only choice involved for the slave is the one between a painfull death and servitude and that this is what they mean by voluntary.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
It's funny you should bring this up, since I participated in a debate about indentured servitude some time ago. As for slavery, you're confusing anarchism (the practical application of which could lead to a rise of slavery) with libertarianism (which brazenly forbids it -- besides, most antislavery partisans were libertarians in the vein of Henry David Thoreau).
The debate was not so much over involuntary servitude. It was about whether or not rights are unlimited to the point where you could actually have the right to give your rights away (in general), with indentured servitude as a specific example. I argued to the contrary, since rights are intangible and simply can't be signed away for any sum of money or services.
The vast majority of FSP members participating took my stance, as well.
Once again, are you misinformed? Or simply being dishonest?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The freedom to own others as if they were merely property.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Again, this has nothing to do with libertarianism, the primray ideal behind which is that your rights end where others' rights begin.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I like it. Unfortunately I don't live in the US so I can't join just to check it out.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Sure you can. There's 100+ members in Canada and several hundred more in Europe, I think.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
don't vote<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
I can agree with the first two, but this one is one of the driving forces behind the movement. :)