God Exists - Undeniable

[Prometheus]

I know that God exists and anyone who dosen't believe in God will definitely go to hell. My religion is the only right one and I know that all others are wrong.

You can't deny these truths because many people have known them to be true for centuries.

Just read the Bible. It is as clear a proof as any. It is a written historical document that cannot be dismissed. Because we know that the Bible is true, it is important to live by the rules it teaches, and to make sure we live in a society that lives by the teachings in the Bible.

If you deny the existance of god, you are a liar, because everyone already knows it in their heart. You just deny God to justify your actions that you know are sins.

Please embrace God and Jesus so you don't go to hell, for that will surely be your fate.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Prometheus My religion is the only right one and I know that all others are wrong.

Cool. You're the one, then. We've been waiting for you. Can you heal this hangnail that I have, please?

[belverron]

I thought you said that you were Mormon in a different thread, but apparently you're Southern Baptist.

[mr.perfecto]

Preach on, Brother Prometheus!

Generally a good effort, and overall I'd say that was definitely a A+ delivery because I can only see a minor complaint: No vivid description of hell or the lake of fire. Speaking as a Baptist (with the associated history of a distinctive oratorical experience), you might want to ramp it up a little.

p.s. If the Bible isn't enough proof for you (generically, not Gorgo specifically), all you need to do then is look at how much cooler and happier Christians are.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Prometheus Please embrace God and Jesus so you don't go to hell, for that will surely be your fate.

Spending all eternity in the company of fundamentalists doesn't sound so heavenly to me.

[Pooeypants]

Heh, nice parody thread. Though you shouldn't really have started it here...

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Pooeypants Heh, nice parody thread. Though you shouldn't really have started it here...

I'm glad somebody finally called my bluff... I was scared people would take me seriously on this one forever.

[belverron]

People were taking you seriously? What are they, new? I mean, I'm new, and I knew better....

[James]

Prometheus, what DO you believe? Anything? Any creator, any god?

[Prometheus]

Quote by: James Prometheus, what DO you believe? Anything? Any creator, any god?

Your Religion

I posted in "Your Religion". If you have specific questions I will answer them

[Gorgo]

What severe differences do you have with how the church is run? If you have severe differences, why not go to another church or start another church?

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Gorgo What severe differences do you have with how the church is run? If you have severe differences, why not go to another church or start another church?

I need to preface this with the purpose and meaning of a church. A church is an organization of mortals, who are all flawed. A gospel (set of beliefs) can be perfect. Any church run by mortals will be flawed. A flawed church may teach a perfect gospel. I believe this to be the case with the church I belong to. When flawed mortals run an organization, they will make mistakes and demonstrate inconsistancies- this does not make the doctorine/set of belifs taught by the church false.

My problems with the running of the mormon church:

(1) Teaching of Church History. You may know of some of the more contraversial aspects of mormon history. These aspects, though awknowledged, are aften misrepresented by not telling the whole story. This concept is known as a "faith promoting history". Many in church leadership feel that aspects of church history that do not promote faith should not be lied about, but just not taught. I do not consider this to be proper, no matter how contraversial our past.

(2) Church Implemented Boy Scouting. The church has a youth auxilliary for boys and girls. The girls program is entirely from the church, but the boys program involves the church sponsoring a boy scout troop, and putting all of the youth in a given Ward (church organizational unit) in that troop. The end affect is a watering down of youth who are actually interested in boy scouting. This is a great detrement to the program.

(3) Many in my church claim more kowledge than we actualy have. Many in the church will take a scripture passage in imply all kinds of meaning through analogy and the like that is not there. Many do not have the faith to admit a lack of knowledge.

(4) There are some teaching stratagies in our proseliting program that I disagree with. Many of our missionaries use emotional tecniques instead of actually teaching the doctorine.

Those are my major problems.

Why do I stay? Bacause they are the only church that I beieve to have all of the truth that god has revealed.

[James]

Quote by: Prometheus Your Religion I posted in "Your Religion". If you have specific questions I will answer them

I wish I could get other people to say this to me, too, but here goes:

Alright, tell me more about your beliefs. For instance, do you believe in Hell? If yes, then who goes there and why? And what do people have to do to not wind up there?

[Prometheus]

Yes, mormons believe in hell after a fashion, but not in the traditional sence of the devil lording over a pit of fire and brimstone, with a God meeting out justice on a pass/fail, heaven/hell basis.

Where we go after we die is tied up with who we are and where we come from. Most religions believe that we are God's children - this is true, and as such, we can grow up to be like our father - literally, we can become gods, with the same powers and priveledges as out heavenly father. This life is a transitory state to receive a body and be tested to see if we will be obedient.

Back to heaven and hell though. "Heaven" is not nescesarily a distinct location, but merely the state of leaving this earth having preserved our ability to progress to become gods. "Hell" is dying in a state that literally damns us - blocking our eternal progression toward our divine potential.

What will send us to heaven/hell? That much is relatively simple - our actions on this earth. Of course it also involves principals which will be familiar to you, grace, repentance and forgiveness. Making it to heaven is a personal thing between an individual and god. The point of perfection one has attained is not nearly as important as one's intentions, and making ones best effort. This is one reason why I tent to be very non-judgemental.

Hell is not so much a place of physical pain and torture, but a mental anguish of having screwed up your eternal progression.

[James]

Okay, just so you know, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass.

Do mormons/you personally believe the Bible? ALL of it, and not half, like the Jews?

[Prometheus]

The entire Bible is part of our cannon. Our sunday school program gives it as much time as our other scripture, as does our seminary program. We consider the bible to be inspired of god, and gospel as far as it is translated correctly.

The bible is hard to take literally all of the time for two main reasons. The first are the translation issues. The king James version is especially atrocious, but every version in existance loses a lot in translation. The catholic church also mesed around with the Bible a lot to make it confirm with thier doctorine. The second problem with the Bible is who it was written to. The old testament was written to an uneducated, nomadic desert people. When a relatively scientific and sophistocated people take such a book entirely literally, it is no wonder that it has problems.

That said, there are many important insights to gain from the bible namely:

(1) The House of Isriel and the Abrahamic covenant god made with them.
(2) Basic commandments (the lower law)
(3) The higher law (sermon on the mount)
(4) Life, divinity and crucifiction of christ
(5) Apostacy

[James]

You believe the Bible...? Okay:
(again, I'm not tryin to be a smart-ass)

You:"What will send us to heaven/hell? That much is relatively simple - our actions on this earth."
Bible:"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
"That if thou shalt confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that
God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9)
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
(Romans 3:28)

You:"...we can grow up to be like our father - literally, we can become gods, with the same powers
and priveledges as out heavenly father."
Bible:"Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." (Matthew 23:10)
(master, not equal)

You:"The point of perfection one has attained is not nearly as important as one's intentions, and
making ones best effort."
Bible:"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:20)
(by thier FRUITS, not by their attempts at bearing fruit)
(plus, ever heard 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'?)
"The Lord knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity." (Psalms 94:11)
(THOUGHTS of man are vanity)

I'm SURE you have something to say about this, so I'll step aside.

[Prometheus]

You:"What will send us to heaven/hell? That much is relatively simple - our actions on this earth." Bible:"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) "That if thou shalt confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9) "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:28)

Romans 3:23 - No contest there. We have all sinned. That's what grace is for.

Romans 10:9 - This scripture seems to say that we need only believe and call upon the name of christ to be saved. This is an oversimpification. If you truely believe in christ, you will also preform the subsidiary works that are requisite i.e. commandments, ordinances, repentance etc.

Romans 3:28 - This scripture is often used to make your point, but it is always used out of context. The topic being adressed with this scripture is the fufillment of the law of moses. It is a switch from a rigid law like counting steps on the sabbath to keeping the spirit of the sabbath day holy. The point in this scripture is a switch from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law. Watch for taking scriptures out of context. Doing so can twist the meaning. And remember that faith requires actions. You don'e have faith if you just say you believe. Faith requires acting on the belief.

Let me quote James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This clarifies, that we need more than just faith. We need both faith and works.

You:"...we can grow up to be like our father - literally, we can become gods, with the same powers and priveledges as out heavenly father." Bible:"Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." (Matthew 23:10) (master, not equal)

Of course Christ is our master. When you were 10 your father was your master. You can however grow up and be equal to your father - maybe even surpass him.

You:"The point of perfection one has attained is not nearly as important as one's intentions, and making ones best effort." Bible:"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:20) (by thier FRUITS, not by their attempts at bearing fruit) (plus, ever heard 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'?) "The Lord knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity." (Psalms 94:11) (THOUGHTS of man are vanity)

How true is an intention that is not acted on? We will never be perfect in this life, our fruits will never be perfect, but as we do our personal best, our fruits will be positive. What I was trying to express, is that we all have different abilities and strengths - different capacities to become perfect. What is important is moving in the right direction and giving it everything we have. If we are doing this our fruits will be good.

Our thoughts are naturally vain, but one of our mortal challenges is to try to overcome that.

[James]

I agree with you about Romans 10:9. In life, true believers in God and in Christ would do the deeds that God has commanded them to do through the Bible. But I was just stating that if someone was saved in a time of crisis in their life, like for instance if they were taken hostage and a Christian told them how to accept Jesus and they were killed soon thereafter, I believe they would be saved. You see what I'm saying? I'm not sure I explained that well, but do you agree with this?

You say that my father was my master. He was never, a soul can serve only one master. Again, "neither be ye called masters...". And I don't call my father 'father', I call him dad. The Bible also says to call none your father on earth for you have one father, above.

And our vain thoughts can never be more than that compared to God's. The Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, so first one must fear the Lord. Of course, we do. "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" (Romans 11:33)
"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. (Psalms 139:6)
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." (John 16:12)

[TheColdTruth]

Quote by: Prometheus I know that God exists and anyone who dosen't believe in God will definitely go to hell. My religion is the only right one and I know that all others are wrong. You can't deny these truths because many people have known them to be true for centuries. Just read the Bible. It is as clear a proof as any. It is a written historical document that cannot be dismissed. Because we know that the Bible is true, it is important to live by the rules it teaches, and to make sure we live in a society that lives by the teachings in the Bible. If you deny the existance of god, you are a liar, because everyone already knows it in their heart. You just deny God to justify your actions that you know are sins. Please embrace God and Jesus so you don't go to hell, for that will surely be your fate.

Length of beliefs existence doesn't equal truth. Truth equals truth. Anything above reason is without it. Your moral is a fairy tale, an insipid lie inspiring harmful lies. If you were really concerned about truth, you'd wonder why you picked a moral system that promises eternal life, instead of one that explain every single thing in existence. Reason is the only thing that can dictate morals; because reason is the only thing that dictates reality.