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**Chris the Chees** · Jun 3, 2005, 07:43 am

What are the lefties views of socialism?

Not your average republicans view of socialism, which is wrong. They belive that the Dems are socialists, they are wrong. I am refering to actual socialism, as in the beliefs of Robert Owen (a classic socialist) to Karl Marx.

**Pooeypants** · Jun 3, 2005, 07:49 am

The way I see it, it's that we will rely more on state run services, plenty of public services that is "free" for all citizens of the country. Just a rudimentary view of mine.

Gorgo · Jun 3, 2005, 07:58 am

I don't know enough about the theory. I certainly see that what we call capitalism is a problem.

I was going to say that I see socialism as democracy. When I talk to people like Vicchio and the Analog Kid, I'm not sure that democracy is a good term. I mean, some people are just damaged. Should they really have a say in how things are run? I'm wondering if the more authoritarian socialists aren't right.

Socialism's idea is to benefit all (in my mind, at least) and to provide a minimum for all and I'm for that. Profit and property are something that are usually determined not on merit, but on who your parents are. The "free market" is nonexistent.

G. Adams · Jun 3, 2005, 09:14 am

Socialism as I know it can be divided into three views (discarding the conservatives views of it, of course).

Theres the "state" socialism, where the state nationalises essential industries, sets minimum wages, encourages X through certain programs. Thats the kind of Tony Benn old Labour business. If you live in the UK, this is what socialism usually means.

There is Lenin's socialism, which is how he describes the intermediary period between capitalism and communism, where the state takes control of everything, in order to prevent counter-revolutionary movements breaking in. The state will then prepare the people and country for communism. When ready, the state releases all of it's assets back to the people.

Then there is ye oldy Christian socialism, which is about individual socialism, rather than state dealing. Although it is obviously specifically a religiously slanted socialism (in it's justification, rather than method), it produced a socialist style that wasn't really connected with Christianity directly, but very much influenced by it's values. Owen comes under this banner, I believe.

G. Adams · Jun 3, 2005, 09:21 am

Oh, your asking my opinion on it, rather than what it is. Well, of the first type I mentioned, I don't like it. I think real progression can only be made by developing people and communities to take control of their own lives, rather than giving more responsibility to the state. Of the second, I don't like because I don't trust states to return the power back to the people. Lenin thought the Soviet Union would return power in a matter of a decade or two, Stalin thought maybe half a century, after that they just gave up pretending. Of the Christian socialism, I like the idea, however realistically I don't see socialism working in pockets while capitalism is so heavily embedded around it.

Gorgo · Jun 3, 2005, 09:35 am

Quote:

Quote by: G. Adams

I don't like it.

Quote:

Quote by: G. Adams

I don't like

Quote:

Quote by: G. Adams

however realistically I don't see socialism working in pockets

So, what will work?

G. Adams · Jun 3, 2005, 07:17 pm

To be honest, I don't know. I'm running hard as I can to stay on the spot at the moment, rather than being dragged into some authoritarian, corporatist nightmare.

What I would like to see is the end of globalised capitalism and nationalism. It would take violent revolution to be achieved, as much as I'd prefer otherwise, it's just I don't see it being allowed to happen naturally. From the leftovers, people could, as individuals, come together to build mutually supporting communities. If you want to be a right winger, go form your own community, although to call a group of right wingers as a community seems an oxymoron. I'll join the nearest left wing anarchistic community, thanks.

As idealistic as it sounds, I see it as quite possible in the long term future, but only because I'm so pessimistic about the next thirty years.

Gorgo · Jun 6, 2005, 08:06 pm

Well, it could happen.

cheesenuggett · Jun 7, 2005, 11:49 pm

though conservatives just view socialism as a stepping stone to communism, i dont like communism, i feel it (a good socialist country) is slightly capatalist, but more community based, peaceful ideals involved, i think the best apporach to a socialist country would be a slightly capitalist econimy, so people can make money and strive for some sort of goal, but have everything spread out and have no clear division of rich and poor. also i would want it to be democratic, as in people have a say in what the country does, not decided by some sort of dictator, so people truly have a say in what happens

but i dont think a good socialist country can happen for a while, too much hostility...

Khushi · Jun 17, 2005, 06:51 pm

There should be basic industries available for everyone but the government shouldn't dictate what the people have to do economically...thats just too authoritative. So lefty socialism is a mix of socialism and capitalism.

ComradeRed · Jul 31, 2005, 01:47 pm

Socialism is nothing more, really, than capitalism. There is still the exchange of commodities for sale. Communism, on the other hand, gets rid of it all. Products are made for those who need it, not for those who can afford it.

Further, what is anyone going to do with five cars, or any other ridiculous number of luxuries that they cannot use? The most logical thing to do is to have a gift economy. It gets rid of capitalism, et al., in the best manner.

Catch 22 · Aug 1, 2005, 05:17 pm

by socialism I think most here mean the communal existance like you describe comrade. The one thing I will always be angry at Marx for was his labelling socialism as a stage in the revolution. this has since led to some of the most confusing phrasology I've seen.

samsara15 · Mar 4, 2006, 05:47 pm

I see socialism as an ideal, not an achievable goal, and maybe not even a desirable goal...perhaps no "ism", in itself, can ever be achievable. Capitalism, for example, certainly has problems. Mankind is not made for absolutes. I think what we need is a mixed economy, with a sturdier social safey net for those who stumble, a society that helps the weak.

Jun 3, 2005, 07:43 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Chris the Chees Moderator Location: Wales Posts: 2,327	Socialism What are the lefties views of socialism? Not your average republicans view of socialism, which is wrong. They belive that the Dems are socialists, they are wrong. I am refering to actual socialism, as in the beliefs of Robert Owen (a classic socialist) to Karl Marx. Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society. Robert Owen

Jun 3, 2005, 07:49 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	The way I see it, it's that we will rely more on state run services, plenty of public services that is "free" for all citizens of the country. Just a rudimentary view of mine. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Jun 3, 2005, 09:14 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,174	Socialism as I know it can be divided into three views (discarding the conservatives views of it, of course). Theres the "state" socialism, where the state nationalises essential industries, sets minimum wages, encourages X through certain programs. Thats the kind of Tony Benn old Labour business. If you live in the UK, this is what socialism usually means. There is Lenin's socialism, which is how he describes the intermediary period between capitalism and communism, where the state takes control of everything, in order to prevent counter-revolutionary movements breaking in. The state will then prepare the people and country for communism. When ready, the state releases all of it's assets back to the people. Then there is ye oldy Christian socialism, which is about individual socialism, rather than state dealing. Although it is obviously specifically a religiously slanted socialism (in it's justification, rather than method), it produced a socialist style that wasn't really connected with Christianity directly, but very much influenced by it's values. Owen comes under this banner, I believe. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jun 3, 2005, 09:21 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,174	Oh, your asking my opinion on it, rather than what it is. Well, of the first type I mentioned, I don't like it. I think real progression can only be made by developing people and communities to take control of their own lives, rather than giving more responsibility to the state. Of the second, I don't like because I don't trust states to return the power back to the people. Lenin thought the Soviet Union would return power in a matter of a decade or two, Stalin thought maybe half a century, after that they just gave up pretending. Of the Christian socialism, I like the idea, however realistically I don't see socialism working in pockets while capitalism is so heavily embedded around it. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jun 3, 2005, 07:17 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,174	To be honest, I don't know. I'm running hard as I can to stay on the spot at the moment, rather than being dragged into some authoritarian, corporatist nightmare. What I would like to see is the end of globalised capitalism and nationalism. It would take violent revolution to be achieved, as much as I'd prefer otherwise, it's just I don't see it being allowed to happen naturally. From the leftovers, people could, as individuals, come together to build mutually supporting communities. If you want to be a right winger, go form your own community, although to call a group of right wingers as a community seems an oxymoron. I'll join the nearest left wing anarchistic community, thanks. As idealistic as it sounds, I see it as quite possible in the long term future, but only because I'm so pessimistic about the next thirty years. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jun 3, 2005, 07:58 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	I don't know enough about the theory. I certainly see that what we call capitalism is a problem. I was going to say that I see socialism as democracy. When I talk to people like Vicchio and the Analog Kid, I'm not sure that democracy is a good term. I mean, some people are just damaged. Should they really have a say in how things are run? I'm wondering if the more authoritarian socialists aren't right. Socialism's idea is to benefit all (in my mind, at least) and to provide a minimum for all and I'm for that. Profit and property are something that are usually determined not on merit, but on who your parents are. The "free market" is nonexistent.

Jun 6, 2005, 08:06 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Well, it could happen.

Jun 7, 2005, 11:49 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
cheesenuggett Molten Ash Posts: 94	though conservatives just view socialism as a stepping stone to communism, i dont like communism, i feel it (a good socialist country) is slightly capatalist, but more community based, peaceful ideals involved, i think the best apporach to a socialist country would be a slightly capitalist econimy, so people can make money and strive for some sort of goal, but have everything spread out and have no clear division of rich and poor. also i would want it to be democratic, as in people have a say in what the country does, not decided by some sort of dictator, so people truly have a say in what happens but i dont think a good socialist country can happen for a while, too much hostility... cheesenuggett.com is a great site with both games, and flash animations! check it out! also be sure to post on my message board! it rocks!

Jun 17, 2005, 06:51 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Khushi BANNED Location: Tampa Posts: 33	There should be basic industries available for everyone but the government shouldn't dictate what the people have to do economically...thats just too authoritative. So lefty socialism is a mix of socialism and capitalism.

Jul 31, 2005, 01:47 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
ComradeRed Igneous Magma Posts: 257	Socialism is nothing more, really, than capitalism. There is still the exchange of commodities for sale. Communism, on the other hand, gets rid of it all. Products are made for those who need it, not for those who can afford it. Further, what is anyone going to do with five cars, or any other ridiculous number of luxuries that they cannot use? The most logical thing to do is to have a gift economy. It gets rid of capitalism, et al., in the best manner. Homepage for the Communist Conspirator![Click here for you daily dose of Communism!] All your Capital is belong to us!

Aug 1, 2005, 05:17 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Catch 22 Igneous Magma Posts: 374	by socialism I think most here mean the communal existance like you describe comrade. The one thing I will always be angry at Marx for was his labelling socialism as a stage in the revolution. this has since led to some of the most confusing phrasology I've seen. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism and economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered Martin Luther King Jr.

Mar 4, 2006, 05:47 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
samsara15 I'm the camel Location: Maryland Posts: 657	I see socialism as an ideal, not an achievable goal, and maybe not even a desirable goal...perhaps no "ism", in itself, can ever be achievable. Capitalism, for example, certainly has problems. Mankind is not made for absolutes. I think what we need is a mixed economy, with a sturdier social safey net for those who stumble, a society that helps the weak.