Stop Picking On Agnus -- All Gays

[Matt W]

tb - you've missed the point yet AGAIN.

*sighs*

This is exactly the point that lsbskins1 is making to JAMES, not you.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: SNPete Actually in the legal system of the US, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the allegation. If the State alleges that you are a robber, the State must prove that allegation So if an atheist starts the debate by saying God is bunk, the burden of proof is on the athiest. The atheist must prove his or her point. However, it is my observation that by the time one gets to the 10th or 20th post this burden of proof concept is lost.

Erm, exactly. Someone is innocent until proven guilty. Ergo God does not exist until proven otherwise. Same with an invisible flying elephant. Or the dancing orange spider of Arabia.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Matt W tb - you've missed the point yet AGAIN. *sighs* This is exactly the point that lsbskins1 is making to JAMES, not you.

Oh I know he was addressing James, Matt. I just thought I would state what my view on the matter is, that's all. But thanks anyway for clarifying the point for me.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Pooeypants Erm, exactly. Someone is innocent until proven guilty. Ergo God does not exist until proven otherwise. Same with an invisible flying elephant. Or the dancing orange spider of Arabia.

But who parted the Red Sea, Pooey? Someone must've done it, right? Couldn't have been Moses. He was just an old man. Might we infer that it must've been some strong superior being? OK, now the burden is on those who say there's no God to explain how that happened. See? The burden of proof shifts at different points in time. The burden doesn't remain in one place forever.

[Pooeypants]

Your logic is unfathomable. We've yet to prove that the Red sea did part, I don't have to prove it didn't until shown otherwise.

[Agent007]

It is possible for the Word of God to be corrupted. Even Jesus said that whoever corrupts the Bible will go to Hell in one of the last verses of the Book of Revelations. He apparently knows that some people will change the word into a different meaning; however, minor words that are "lost in translation" may not be considered real corruptions.

[Agent007]

How did we get from the topic of gays picking on Agnus to the topics of the Red Sea parting, the burden of proof, and the supposed corruption of the Word of God?

[Samildanach]

What if in theory the word of god was altered to allow gays to become Christians and enter heaven with the rest of you? James might finally be able to come out of the closet then. You have to remember that if the word of God was altered in this fashion that God would not allow his word to become corrupted so it would show a fundamental shift in his policy. After all you cannot teach children (old testament) the same lessons as adolescents ( new testament) and you can't teach the same lessons to adolescents that you teach to adults (hypothetical new testament.)

[BaldEagle]

Quote by James You can't be a Christian and be gay. You just can't, and one day you'll realize that you should have realized it before. But once that day comes, it'll be too late. I'm not trying to 'scare you' into Christianity, because I'm sure you've all already decided that I'm wrong. I'm just telling the truth.

Can you commit adultry and be a Christian?

I see this as contradictory to the teachings of Jesus. Singling out sin would be just plain wrong as well as judgemental which we have no authority to do. I can not see how homosexual sin is any more or any less the sins of a heterosexual. Heteros sin all the time and yet they can accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, but homosexuals can not. The rules are just to hard for me. That was rude and I apologize. I am not attacking your religion but I am questiong your interpretation. Choices are choices and sin is sin. If those choices (and it is debatable if all homosexuality is a choice) result in the commission of sin then all will be on equal standing in the eyes of God.

BaldEagle

[James]

Quote by: BaldEagle Can you commit adultry and be a Christian? I see this as contradictory to the teachings of Jesus. Singling out sin would be just plain wrong as well as judgemental which we have no authority to do. I can not see how homosexual sin is any more or any less the sins of a heterosexual. Heteros sin all the time and yet they can accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, but homosexuals can not. The rules are just to hard for me. That was rude and I apologize. I am not attacking your religion but I am questiong your interpretation. Choices are choices and sin is sin. If those choices (and it is debatable if all homosexuality is a choice) result in the commission of sin then all will be on equal standing in the eyes of God. BaldEagle

Homosexuality is a way of life. It is not a single act. And it is a sin because it goes against the way God intended humans to live.

Two men or two women cannot have children. And as I've said before, this is not my reason against homosexuality, it's my proof.

Even in an atheistic view: Why should two being be together if there's no purpose? They can't even reproduce, and isn't that the main goal of our species???

Everyone has sinned, any sin at all puts you in one category. There aren't levels of sin in your life, one makes you not right with God. The one other group is those who have been pardoned. They have been forgiven by just asking God to and believing in what He did for us.

And thank you for mentioning that you weren't personally attacking me or my religion. Seriously. If you hadn't I probably would have just gotten mad and stopped really thinking, I would have just gotten defensive. Thanks.

[Jack]

James, since you believe this: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"-2 Timothy 3:16, then I have a few points that perhaps you can clear up for me. If you get through these, I've got a hundred more;
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)



Or perhaps you'd rather just opt for the escape clause;
TI 6:20, 2TI 2:14-16, 3:1-7 Do not argue with an unbeliever.
2JN 1:10-11 Anyone who even greets an unbeliever shares his wicked work.
1PE 3:15 Always be ready to answer any man concerning your faith.
or maybe not.

[James]

Quote by: Isherwood James, since you believe this: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"-2 Timothy 3:16, then I have a few points that perhaps you can clear up for me. If you get through these, I've got a hundred more;

I started to reply to this last night, and I swear.... I think all y'all list SO many verses so that I'll just be too tired to answer about all of them. *sigh* But then you'd think that I'm just trying to get out of it...

Quote by: Isherwood GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness. GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

In verses three through five the Bible says that God first created light and dark, and then separated them. It doesn't say tnything about the sun or the moon. The way the Bible puts it, the sun doesn't or didn't necessarily make the difference between night and day.

Quote by: Isherwood GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created. GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

Actually, four through nine would suggest that plants came before man... What are you reading??? So... what is your argument? Maybe you need to read more before you bring something against me.

Quote by: Isherwood GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created. GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

Verse seven has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Anyway, verse nineteen is just saying that God created birds, not right then. It is just re-stating that God created birds and animals before it says that Adam named them.

Quote by: Isherwood GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created. GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

Again... it's just saying again before it goes into Adam naming them.

Quote by: Isherwood GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time. GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

Verses 26 and 27 say that God created them, not necessarily at the same time.

Quote by: Isherwood GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction. LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)

Childbirth is not a sin, the sex that causes it is. Before the fall of man, we don't know. People may have been able to reproduce without sex... Nobody knows for sure. Because the world was a perfect place, there couldn't have been sin until it was finally introduced.

Quote by: Isherwood GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation. GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation. (Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)

Genesis chapter one says that God looked upon all His creation, and it was VERY good. But later God was displeased with His creation, man. Not everything else. But it was not His fault that He was displeased, it was ours. Man has free will and brought the flood upon themselves.

And how is that inconsistent with His omniscience? God controls everything, but man has free will and made his own choices. Man was corrupting God's world. His creation turned against Him, and it was man's own fault.

:):):):):)

[Jack]

The way the Bible puts it, the sun doesn't or didn't necessarily make the difference between night and day.

Does that really make any sense to you? How else could anyone, even a supreme being, divide night and day? By their very definition they are the difference between the presence of sunlight and the absence of sunlight.
I do give you due credit though for having made the effort to straighten out some of these what I perceive as inconsistancies. I won't bombard you with all the rest. 8-)

[James]

Quote by: Isherwood Does that really make any sense to you? How else could anyone, even a supreme being, divide night and day? By their very definition they are the difference between the presence of sunlight and the absence of sunlight. I do give you due credit though for having made the effort to straighten out some of these what I perceive as inconsistancies. I won't bombard you with all the rest. 8-)

Well, a supreme being has dominion over all- even the thought, the hint, the beginning of a night or a day- so couldn't God separate or combine anything that He wanted?

You say the definitions of night and day argue against their combination, but the definition of a supreme being argues for everything that you can come up with an argument about!!!

[Starboy]

You tell him James. God used magic. He spoke the word "light" and there was light. And of course it is no coincidence that the word "spell" as in magic spell is also what you do with words. In the magic world the word is the thing. The ability to spell the word gives you power over the thing the word is for. Speak the word and the thing appears, hocus pocus. In genesis god acts just like a magical thinking conjurer. And of course superstitious natives, such as your self, are suitably impressed.

Starboy

[James]

Quote by: Starboy You tell him James. God used magic. He spoke the word "light" and there was light. And of course it is no coincidence that the word "spell" as in magic spell is also what you do with words. In the magic world the word is the thing. The ability to spell the word gives you power over the thing the word is for. Speak the word and the thing appears, hocus pocus. In genesis god acts just like a magical thinking conjurer. And of course superstitious natives, such as your self, are suitably impressed. Starboy

WHAT?! I guess this is some attempt to make fun of me... :eek:

I don't know what you were trying to say in this post, but... good effort! *haha*

In our discussion, we both assumed the existence of a supreme being. I was saying that we don't know what dark and light were before God separated them.

Isherwood asked how even a supreme being could separate the night and day. Doesn't that seem contradictory to you? For any thinking person, it should! I then said that we have no ability or right to question what the Bible says. Because if it is true (which we must assume to keep up the debate), then ages before we even knew what light and dark were, God had CREATED THEM!!!

Why can't you wrap your tiny little mind around that???

[Starboy]

As you were pointing out it doesn't matter what existed before god started making those magic spells.

Starboy

[Jack]

Isherwood asked how even a supreme being could separate the night and day.

No, what I said was

How else could anyone, even a supreme being, divide night and day?

See the word else, James? That means I was asking without the sun amd moon, without light and dark, how could anyone, even a supreme being, divide the day and night?

By their very definition they are the difference between the presence of sunlight and the absence of sunlight.

In other words the bible is either wrong or some magic was performed that has never been repeated and was never explained. Since you won't accept that the bible may be wrong, well...

[James]

If you want to call what God does 'magic', then what are we arguing about?

God's ways have never been explained because He doesn't have to or need to. The Bible says that there are many things which are, but we cannot handle now. It also says that such knowledge is high, we cannot attain unto it.

In heaven one day, all will be revealed unto believers.

[belverron]

Quote by: James WHAT?! I guess this is some attempt to make fun of me...

James, meet Starboy.

Quote by: James attain unto it.

That's cute.