Smoking

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready You neglect to ADMIT that you enter a smoking establishment (owned by a private owner) of your own free will. YOU GIVE THEM THE RIGHT to injure you, when you WILLFULLY ENTER A SMOKING ESTABLISHMENT.

This must be a states right issue because there are no smoking establishments in California anymore.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready THIS IS ABOUT THE RIGHT OF THE INDIVIDUAL, AND HIS POWER OVER HIS OWN PROPERTY, not a health issue.

Maybe where you are, but in CA. there is no smoking allowed in any public areas because it IS a HEALTH ISSUE. It has been proven to cause cancer as well as many other health issues. Read the pack.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready The government has no power to regulate a person from harming themselves through personal choice, except in suicide, which is technically constitutionally illegal.

They do it all the time. seat belt laws. Helmet laws. Building codes, mandatory warning labels. OSHA saves us from ourselves. Standards are our friends. We are regulated for our own good a hundred times a day, we just dont think about it. Traffic Lights are a perfect example, does the government have a right to tell us to stop at signals and at train tracks when a train is coming?

Adults harm innocent kids with cigarettes. Who will protect the kids from adults who are too dumb to not smoke?
Do kids who cant read "smoking establishment" signs, have any right to breathe clean air?

[Imudman]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel This must be a states right issue because there are no smoking establishments in California anymore. Maybe where you are, but in CA. there is no smoking allowed in any public areas because it IS a HEALTH ISSUE. It has been proven to cause cancer as well as many other health issues. Read the pack. They do it all the time. seat belt laws. Helmet laws. Building codes, mandatory warning labels. OSHA saves us from ourselves. Standards are our friends. We are regulated for our own good a hundred times a day, we just dont think about it. Traffic Lights are a perfect example, does the government have a right to tell us to stop at signals and at train tracks when a train is coming? Adults harm innocent kids with cigarettes. Who will protect the kids from adults who are too dumb to not smoke? Do kids who cant read "smoking establishment" signs, have any right to breathe clean air?

The real issue is Power, and who gets to use it. You say it's okay to force people to give up certain property rights in favor of your right to breathe clean air, but in the end it all boils down to one group of people forcing their way against another group. You say it's a health issue, but then why aren't smoking laws enforcable against private clubs? If it's truly a health issue, it seems to me it should be enforced everywhere. The "health" justification is nothing more than a propoganda tool being employed to sway more people to your side.

IMO, the smoking laws in California really amount to nothing more than handing over a big stick to a large gang of non-smokers so they can invade private enterprises and threaten the owners...

[Osborn F Enready]

You are starting to sound like a far lefty Daniel.

You fail to see where government crosses the line in this issue.

What don't you understand about property rights?

You mean to tell me you are uttering the words "it is illegal, therefore it must be true"?

I am dissappointed at your ability to see the line that is overwhelmingly clear.

You can't poke holes in anything I just posted, except using modern "un-constitutional" practices and methods.

What I was addressing is just because the government says its ok to take your rights, do you think its legal? I thought you were a backer of the Constitution?

Can't have your cake and eat it too Daniel.

You either recognize the rights of property owners, or you don't believe in the Constitution. It is what the entire concept is based on, property rights.

[Osborn F Enready]

double post, sorry.

[Osborn F Enready]

Gr8fulDaniel said:
We are regulated for our own good a hundred times a day, we just dont think about it.

I say:
We are "regulated" for our own good, eh?

“To be governed is to be watched, inspected, directed, indoctrinated, numbered, estimated, regulated, commanded, controlled, law-driven, preached at, spied upon, censured, checked, valued, enrolled, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be governed is to be, at every operation and at every transaction, taxed, stamped, registered, numbered, counted, noted, measured, assessed, authorized, licensed, admonished, prevented, forbidden, corrected, reformed, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, fleeced, drilled, extorted from, exploited, monopolized, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at slightest resistance and first word of complaint, to be sacrificed, betrayed, harassed, repressed, disarmed, hunted down, clubbed, abused, fined, sold, and, to crown it all, to be outraged, ridiculed, mocked, derided, dishonored. THAT is government; that is its justice, that's its morality.”
-Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

If the government is not controlled by the people in all aspects, it is NOT A LEGITIMATE POWER, in this country. You and I have discussed at length before how citizens have the right to revolt against un-representative government if they silence the appeal of the people.

Just because a State, or a government says something, doesn't make it right.

Slavery?
Womens Suffrage?
Prohibition?

Rights are not selective, they are all or nothing. I wanted to see a legitimate backer to your arguments, and logical arguments against my points. I saw neither. I saw you saying that the State says so, so it must be legal.

“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”
-George Santayana

“Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.”
-C.S. Lewis

“One of the shrewdest ways for human predators to conquer their stronger victims is to steadily convince them with propaganda that they're still free...”
-Dr. N.A. Scott

“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
-Johann Von Goethe


“Democracy is the most vile form of government ... democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention: have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property: and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”
-James Madison, 1787, Federalist Paper #10

“A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way.”
-Fisher Ames, author of the words of the First Amendment

“Democracy ... while it lasts is more bloody than either [aristocracy or monarchy]. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide.”
-John Adams, 1815

“The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent.”
-Larry P. McDonald, US Congressman, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets

“The real menace of our republic is the invisible government which, like a giant octopus, sprawls its slimy length over our city, state and nation. At the head is a small group of banking houses, generally referred to as 'international bankers.'”
-John F. Hylan, 1911, then mayor of New York

“Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.”
-Woodrow Wilson, from his book The New Freedom (1913)

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”
-President Woodrow Wilson

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready You are starting to sound like a far lefty Daniel.

Os, Are you an Anarchist?
Sounds like you are in favor of lawlessness. Are any laws good? Should we ever be told what to do?

Are traffic lights unconstitutional?

It has been so long since I have been in a public place (indoors) that allows smoking. The last time was in an AA meeting that had a great speaker until ten minutes into his talk everybody lit up at once. It was winter and cold out, so nobody opened a window. I tried to stay (I went there because I dont want to die, from alcoholism) but had to leave when my eyes started watering and my throat was constricting.
I went back to that same "Alano Club" and they had changed it to a private club so people could smoke indoors. I guess they have a few non-smoking meetings, but you cant go in to the main part of the club unless you pay $10 per month.
I wont be joining that club anytime soon. AA is supposed to be all inclusive NEVER exclusive, but I have to point out "Alano Clubs" are NOT AA. They just provide meeting places for AA. I didnt mean to bore you with all those "politics" but I think there is an important message in this. Some people need AA to live. I guess somebody needs to start a Non-Smoking meeting place. Meanwhile, I wonder how many people will be "turned away" from AA because it looks like an elite society?
Maybe I am just babbling about something that should be resolved in Alano Clubs. Its just a shame that I couldnt just hang out with other AA's and drink a cup o' joe. Shameful. But, thats property rights in action. bleh......

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Imudman You say it's a health issue, but then why aren't smoking laws enforcable against private clubs? If it's truly a health issue, it seems to me it should be enforced everywhere. The "health" justification is nothing more than a propoganda tool being employed to sway more people to your side.

You really dont think smoking is a health issue?? You have got to be kidding me! Read the fucking pack.

[Imudman]

Traffic lights, smoking bans, building codes, &tc. are all manifestations of different groups of people siezing control of government for a time, then using it to impose their collective will on the rest of the people. They justify their tyrannical actions under the guise of "public safety".

On the surface, using governmental power to promote public safety appears reasonable, since it generally improves the quality of life in society. But every time one of these laws is passed, the inherent dignity of the individual is marginalized in favor of promoting the general welfare.

A better way to improve society would be to encourage good behaviour through education, while at the same time exercising a little patience and tolerance toward people who may not live up to our particular standards. Reaching for the ballot-box gun to force your neighbor to restrict certain behavioiur on his property isn't very neighborly at all.

The smoking ban is kind of like swatting flies with a hammer. It's overkill. Just like your last post to me, gr8fuldaniel. If you don't want to be offended by smoke, don't go there. Real simple...

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Imudman A better way to improve society would be to encourage good behaviour through education, while at the same time exercising a little patience and tolerance toward people who may not live up to our particular standards.

Until this Utopia happens do we just allow the crack cocaine lobby to to shine a favorable light on their product, while the crackheads are beating your little sister or your mother up, to take her lunch money? Do they have a right to do anything they want to their own body, at the expense of their own mothers life? A crack addict is under the tyranny of a ruler much like the nicotene addict, though not quite as severe.

[Imudman]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Until this Utopia happens do we just allow the crack cocaine lobby to to shine a favorable light on their product, while the crackheads are beating your little sister or your mother up, to take her lunch money? Do they have a right to do anything they want to their own body, at the expense of their own mothers life? A crack addict is under the tyranny of a ruler much like the nicotene addict, though not quite as severe.

Oh lighten up. Like I said earlier, the real issue is power, and who gets to use it. I agree that certain things like beating up someone for their lunch money should be prohibited. But banning smoking in a restaraunt because you feel uncomfortable is completely unreasonable.

I remember when the proposition was passed here in California. It was all about the workers. But if it's really about the workers, why were places that employed fewer than 10 workers exempted? And why has that distinction gone away? And again, why not prohibit smoking in all places? The answer is it's really about power, and you used yours to force business owners out of their property rights. Just admit it...

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Imudman But banning smoking in a restaraunt because you feel uncomfortable is completely unreasonable.

Completely unreasonable? Would you be offended if I brought a sack full of human feces into a restraunt you were eating in, opened it up in the middle of your table? Both are offensive and unhealthy. Why should it be legal for you to pollute my airspace, but I cant pollute yours? Lets be fair about this.

Quote by: Imudman The answer is it's really about power, and you used yours to force business owners out of their property rights. Just admit it...

Actually I was against any anti-smoking positions. I was a nicotene pig up until 9 1/2 years ago. But, I never voted for anything until a couple of years ago. I totally disagreed with banning smoking in bars, especially. Ended up not really so bad, though. It wont kill anyone to go outside for 5 minutes to smoke. Big Deal!

[Imudman]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Completely unreasonable? Would you be offended if I brought a sack full of human feces into a restraunt you were eating in, opened it up in the middle of your table? Both are offensive and unhealthy. Why should it be legal for you to pollute my airspace, but I cant pollute yours? Lets be fair about this.

LOL! I don't know the proper term for your tactic, but absurdity comes to mind.

Actually I was against any anti-smoking positions. I was a nicotene pig up until 9 1/2 years ago. But, I never voted for anything until a couple of years ago. I totally disagreed with banning smoking in bars, especially. Ended up not really so bad, though. It wont kill anyone to go outside for 5 minutes to smoke. Big Deal!

Well, that explains a lot. Nothing worse than a ree-formed smoker, lol...

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Imudman Well, that explains a lot. Nothing worse than a ree-formed smoker, lol...

Why was I expecting that? Do you think I would be a better person if I continued in my ignorance and self abuse? Nothing Worse? For who?

That doesnt dismiss my desire for oxygen after decades of deprivation, as moot. Why cant I choose to breathe fresh air? Are these "Smoking Establishments" clearly labelled?

After all the money and time and health it has cost me, yes its true, I want to be smoke free.

[Imudman]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Why was I expecting that? Do you think I would be a better person if I continued in my ignorance and self abuse? Nothing Worse? For who? That doesnt dismiss my desire for oxygen after decades of deprivation, as moot. Why cant I choose to breathe fresh air? Are these "Smoking Establishments" clearly labelled? After all the money and time and health it has cost me, yes its true, I want to be smoke free.

No, I think you'd be a better person if you wouldn't use your right to vote against private property rights. I'm not saying you're a bad person. I'm only saying you shouldn't vote against other people's rights. A person allowing patrons to smoke in his establishment in no way harms you, no matter what you might think.

That's the trouble with America today. Too many people, rather than negotiating with their neighbors, would rather jump on the first bandwagon coming along that uses the government gun to get their way. It's just bullying on a grand scale. Sooner or later someone's going to vote away some of your rights...

[gr8fuldaniel]

I dont want any rights that are harmful to others.

[Matt W]

Personally, I don't see what's wrong with a bar that continues to allow smoking. If the staff are in agreement, then it's the owners' choice - there are plenty of other venues for non-smokers to go to.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Imudman But banning smoking in a restaraunt because you feel uncomfortable is completely unreasonable.

It has nothing to do with being uncomfortable and everything to do with it being a public health hazard.

The answer is it's really about power, and you used yours to force business owners out of their property rights. Just admit it...

Most business owners do not own their place of business, most rent them on a month-to-month basis, so talking about property rights is a little ridiculous. Secondly, there is no immunity to following the law just because you're a business. You can't do illegal things in your own home, even if your name is on the title, you can't do illegal things in your business either. If smoking is made illegal in all businesses, then business owners have to deal with it.

[Chris]

I fukin hate it. I used to do it when I was in the army (everyone in the army does it) and I gave it up years ago. After living in Massachusetts where it is not permitted to smoke in any workplace, I come here where more mutherfuckers smoke per capita. Also its cheaper here as opposed to NYC and Boston. in NYC they run about $8 per pack. in Boston its about $5-6 Here its something like $2-3

Makes your teeth turn colors, bad breath, bad lungs. Bad smell on your clothes.

I always hate it here when they seat you in the "non smoking" section and you can still smell it cause everyone down here that does smoke is a mutherfuckin chain smoker. Fuck them. I guess they will get theirs when they get an early death.

[Chris]

Quote by: Pooeypants If people want to indulge in the inhalation of carcinogens, then so be it. Just keep the f**king things away from me.

My sentiments exactly

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Trample my rights, may god help you, you're gonna need it. (if there is one.)

Dude, that thread died a long time ago. Unless of course you want to give it new life.

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I hope this isnt too shocking.......

Dude I know thats a good point to prove but are you sure it isn't photoshopped? Can you do a snopes check for me (I'm Lazy)

[Chris]

Quote by: Lora Mmmm.. Dr Pepper and Hotdogs

And you live in England? I know they had Dr Pepper there but hotdogs?

And they blame the Americans for "American globalization"