Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

G. Adams · May 6, 2005, 05:03 pm

Weyhey, we're up and running finally. And on that note, I'd like to ask a question close to my heart - what the hell happened to us?

As a movement, progressives have always had different ideas of how we should go about doing what we're doing and we often fight and squabble amongst ourselves as much as with those who arn't. But despite all that, we accomplished a lot. We built the welfare states, or forced others to for fear of what could happen otherwise. We built effective unions that were actually worth being members of. Essentially, we set the agenda from WWII to 19780. But then what? Reagan and Thatcher took over, and everything seemed to change. We either became cowed or noisy militants, and neither is useful for making either the swinging moderates or the establishment take us seriously. And when we have gotten our politicians into power, they havn't pushed for the reforms we generally want. Blair and Clinton, for the number of good points they do have, have been massive dissapointments.

What I want to know is why are we so complacent today, accepting that we have to generally fit our policies to the public opinion? The right didn't, they changed the agenda and public opinion. So obviously our second challenge must be how do we shift the agenda back to our concerns? I know theres a lot of differences between those on the left, but we all gain by getting politics back onto the left side of the track.

Gorgo · May 6, 2005, 06:17 pm

In my mind, the biggest problem has been the power of the mainstream, especially the corporate media. The wealthy have worked to dominate, sometimes in subtle way, sometimes in not so subtle ways, the flow of information, at least in the U.S., and I think in a lot of the world. Think tanks, newspapers, colleges, television- every aspect of education and information flow.

I am told that the U.K. is not quite as bad as the U.S., but is getting there as well. Would you agree?

What this has done is splinter the left because, while most agree that society is responsible for fixing some of the flaws of society, and most agree with social liberal ideas, there is often little else to agree on. Liberals fight amongst themselves, authoritarian leftists fight amongst themselves, etc.

Just this week, I realized that the Worker's World Party, a very small, authoritarian, even Stalinist party in the U.S., itself a splinter group of some other party, has split and there's yet another offshoot called The Party for Socialism and Liberation.

Democrats (U.S. Democrat Party) did their best to make Ralph Nader and even their own Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich and other more progressive Democrats to look like fools, yet progressives and socialists cling to the Democratic Party as some kind of saviour.

Even leftists that understand the imperial nature of the U.S. and Great Britain applaud imperialist activities in places like Iraq, Haiti and Yugoslavia.

How many left of center parties are there in the world? Isn't one of the main tenets of leftists and progressives principles to band together internationally?

What do we have in common, and how do we start with that?

G. Adams · May 6, 2005, 07:46 pm

Agreed, I would put the mass media as the main barrier to reaching out with our ideas to the wider population. When you speak to most people they do have similar ideas, or at least reconcilable ones, and certainly object to most of the current trends. But how do we get control of an influential mass medium? It's either websites, or newspapers. Newspapers are expensive, and websites are common as muck.

In the UK our media is pretty good, both televised and print. However, most people don't read the broadsheets, but instead the tabloids, which rant about immigrants and celeb's, so it's hard to speak to the masses.

The split amongst the left I think is the worst development. I can see why, most of us who take it seriously are very well informed, so we're bound to argue, rather than do as were told. But I wish for once we could put the differences aside to fight a common enemy. Do they not realise they will never succeed in anything if were too busy arguing with each other? We'll still be here debating what Trotsky ate for dinner while we have ultra-nationalist/fascist movements on the rise. It certainly looks that way in GB right now, but at least the election of RESPECT candidate George Galloway was a good move.

As far as it looks from this side of the pond, the Democrat Party is even worse off than the Labour Party. I'm not sure whether the DP is doomed though. If all the leftists in the US joined up there could be an internal movement to push it leftwards, and away from the ass kissing it has been doing since Reagan got in.

Internationally, I think the best developments have been the International Socialist Forums, at least there we can meet up and discuss how to move forward. The problem seems however, is that it is only ever discussion, nothing is accomplished. It's also a little at risk from softening up to types like Lula, who seem a little too eager to jump into bed with big bussiness.

I think what we should be doing is aiming to unify the parties together within our countries. Get over the old divisions between Trotskyites and Stalinists, that was the past. Once we are single parties, rather than so broadly spread, we should be able to make concerted efforts at the ground level to draw in memberships and spread our materials. And as single national parties, we can work much more closely with our continental and international partners.

Gorgo · May 7, 2005, 07:33 am

Well, I understand the more authoritarian parts of the left more than I used to. Sometimes is seems like the situation has to be forced, but I also realize more now how much we have to be patient, because forcing things will end badly. We all need each other to make it work.

As far as the Democratic Party, I think a lot of people on the left see it as corrupt, but the only game in town. Right now, I just don't know what to do or where to turn. The last election brought me back to the place where I feel that elections are a diversion, and not any kind of a solution to problems. It's simply a choice between criminals who wish to act like gentlemen while they commit their crimes, or criminals who wish to act like criminals.

May 6, 2005, 05:03 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	The Left Weyhey, we're up and running finally. And on that note, I'd like to ask a question close to my heart - what the hell happened to us? As a movement, progressives have always had different ideas of how we should go about doing what we're doing and we often fight and squabble amongst ourselves as much as with those who arn't. But despite all that, we accomplished a lot. We built the welfare states, or forced others to for fear of what could happen otherwise. We built effective unions that were actually worth being members of. Essentially, we set the agenda from WWII to 19780. But then what? Reagan and Thatcher took over, and everything seemed to change. We either became cowed or noisy militants, and neither is useful for making either the swinging moderates or the establishment take us seriously. And when we have gotten our politicians into power, they havn't pushed for the reforms we generally want. Blair and Clinton, for the number of good points they do have, have been massive dissapointments. What I want to know is why are we so complacent today, accepting that we have to generally fit our policies to the public opinion? The right didn't, they changed the agenda and public opinion. So obviously our second challenge must be how do we shift the agenda back to our concerns? I know theres a lot of differences between those on the left, but we all gain by getting politics back onto the left side of the track. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

May 6, 2005, 07:46 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Agreed, I would put the mass media as the main barrier to reaching out with our ideas to the wider population. When you speak to most people they do have similar ideas, or at least reconcilable ones, and certainly object to most of the current trends. But how do we get control of an influential mass medium? It's either websites, or newspapers. Newspapers are expensive, and websites are common as muck. In the UK our media is pretty good, both televised and print. However, most people don't read the broadsheets, but instead the tabloids, which rant about immigrants and celeb's, so it's hard to speak to the masses. The split amongst the left I think is the worst development. I can see why, most of us who take it seriously are very well informed, so we're bound to argue, rather than do as were told. But I wish for once we could put the differences aside to fight a common enemy. Do they not realise they will never succeed in anything if were too busy arguing with each other? We'll still be here debating what Trotsky ate for dinner while we have ultra-nationalist/fascist movements on the rise. It certainly looks that way in GB right now, but at least the election of RESPECT candidate George Galloway was a good move. As far as it looks from this side of the pond, the Democrat Party is even worse off than the Labour Party. I'm not sure whether the DP is doomed though. If all the leftists in the US joined up there could be an internal movement to push it leftwards, and away from the ass kissing it has been doing since Reagan got in. Internationally, I think the best developments have been the International Socialist Forums, at least there we can meet up and discuss how to move forward. The problem seems however, is that it is only ever discussion, nothing is accomplished. It's also a little at risk from softening up to types like Lula, who seem a little too eager to jump into bed with big bussiness. I think what we should be doing is aiming to unify the parties together within our countries. Get over the old divisions between Trotskyites and Stalinists, that was the past. Once we are single parties, rather than so broadly spread, we should be able to make concerted efforts at the ground level to draw in memberships and spread our materials. And as single national parties, we can work much more closely with our continental and international partners. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

May 6, 2005, 06:17 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	In my mind, the biggest problem has been the power of the mainstream, especially the corporate media. The wealthy have worked to dominate, sometimes in subtle way, sometimes in not so subtle ways, the flow of information, at least in the U.S., and I think in a lot of the world. Think tanks, newspapers, colleges, television- every aspect of education and information flow. I am told that the U.K. is not quite as bad as the U.S., but is getting there as well. Would you agree? What this has done is splinter the left because, while most agree that society is responsible for fixing some of the flaws of society, and most agree with social liberal ideas, there is often little else to agree on. Liberals fight amongst themselves, authoritarian leftists fight amongst themselves, etc. Just this week, I realized that the Worker's World Party, a very small, authoritarian, even Stalinist party in the U.S., itself a splinter group of some other party, has split and there's yet another offshoot called The Party for Socialism and Liberation. Democrats (U.S. Democrat Party) did their best to make Ralph Nader and even their own Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich and other more progressive Democrats to look like fools, yet progressives and socialists cling to the Democratic Party as some kind of saviour. Even leftists that understand the imperial nature of the U.S. and Great Britain applaud imperialist activities in places like Iraq, Haiti and Yugoslavia. How many left of center parties are there in the world? Isn't one of the main tenets of leftists and progressives principles to band together internationally? What do we have in common, and how do we start with that?

May 7, 2005, 07:33 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Well, I understand the more authoritarian parts of the left more than I used to. Sometimes is seems like the situation has to be forced, but I also realize more now how much we have to be patient, because forcing things will end badly. We all need each other to make it work. As far as the Democratic Party, I think a lot of people on the left see it as corrupt, but the only game in town. Right now, I just don't know what to do or where to turn. The last election brought me back to the place where I feel that elections are a diversion, and not any kind of a solution to problems. It's simply a choice between criminals who wish to act like gentlemen while they commit their crimes, or criminals who wish to act like criminals.