Under-Reported

[OberonDOtherseid]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Thats pretty weak, Ober. I said NO, you should NOT kill your sister if she is a prostitute, or a slut, or whatever you are getting at. What honor do you get for killing your own sister. Not from me. You get zero respect.

Then tell me why you can never see both sides of an issue? WHY dan, can you NOT see beyond your hatred for the US? Everything is anti american with you, why?

[gr8fuldaniel]

Answer the question, is killing ok on some occasions and not on others? If so, be specific.

The answer is YES. (Its OK to kill wheat for bread, rabbits for stew, etc.)

Happy Now?

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: OberonDOtherseid Then tell me why you can never see both sides of an issue? WHY dan, can you NOT see beyond your hatred for the US? Everything is anti american with you, why?

I love America. Not just because of its beaches, mountains, rivers and other geophysical aspects. But also because of how we treat our neighbors. Also because of how we have certain , supposedly inalienable rights. Because America signed the Magna Charta and the Bill of Rights and Geneva Convention. THATS why I love America.

[Mia]

G8,

Ob is making another ME reference with the killing your sister thing. In some countries, there is such a thing as 'honor killing'. A most dishonorable thing - where one of a woman's male relatives must kill her if she is unchaste to regain the family honor. This honor code is so twisted in Pakistan, for instance, that recently a woman was gang-raped by male members of a prominent family, because her brother had had relations with one of the prominent family's daughters. Supposedly this made the family feel better about the whole thing.

While this is a detestable practice, and I abhor any nation that allows it to go on, it doesn't happen in all ME countries, or Muslim countries, and has nothing to do with whether we should have gone to war with Iraq, or whether I like Bush.

But for some reason, Ob thinks that not liking Bush = loving Saddam, Bin Laden, and all women-hating extremist lslamic groups.

Ob, who ever said in here they like Saddam? Do you really think people are defending him when they are against the war? Do you really think we're extremist apologists because we don't think the US has the right to go bombing every country whose regime we don't like or because we want to make a political statement?

That's what the war in iraq largely was - a statement to the world that 'we won't tolerate terrorism'. At least, that's one of the many ever-changing stories as to why we went.

Disagreeing with that does not mean we love all the societies in the ME, and it certainly doesn't mean we like/agree with the worst things that go on in some.

But I'll tell you this - if we're going to invade every nation that treats women like shit, we're going to be invading over half the world, and it won't all be middle-eastern nations.

So why do you bring up those vague references to your perceived version of Islam's treatment of women over and over?

What is your point?

[Mia]

Additionally, you have no call to keep accusing people of hating the US if we disagree with a policy or a President. That's one of the things I love about the US - the fact I have the freedom to do that, and I know I'm blessed to have been born here.

Repeating over and over that anyone who disagrees with Bush is a US-hating, terrorist loving, ingrate is not only ignorant and inaccurate, but boring as well.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Mia Ob is making another ME reference with the killing your sister thing. In some countries, there is such a thing as 'honor killing'. A most dishonorable thing - where one of a woman's male relatives must kill her if she is unchaste to regain the family honor. This honor code is so twisted in Pakistan, for instance, that recently a woman was gang-raped by male members of a prominent family, because her brother had had relations with one of the prominent family's daughters. Supposedly this made the family feel better about the whole thing. While this is a detestable practice, and I abhor any nation that allows it to go on, it doesn't happen in all ME countries, or Muslim countries, and has nothing to do with whether we should have gone to war with Iraq, or whether I like Bush.

I figured he was getting at that. So, by that line of reasoning; Saddam Hussein would have every right to run bombing raids here in America. Because of the dishonorable actions of our people, and how the offended have or havent carried out their own justice. If we can bomb every problem, why shouldnt everyone else. Or are we above reproach? We are not that much better than anyone. We have plenty of unmentionables. Patriotism should mean more than cheerleading for a lynch mob mentality.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Ober,
You really believe this is a mission of mercy? That we are liberating these people? Why would we drop the ball in the 'War of/on Terror"; to liberate the people who tried to kill Shrubs daddy? Is anybody tallying up the liberated and the dead? No, that would not be conducive to the 'truth' they are feeding us. No-Bid Contracts?? Thats a subtle hint. Heres another subtle hint:

LINK Revealed: documents show Blair's secret plans for war PM decided on conflict from the start. Blair told war illegal in March 2002. Latest leak confirms Goldsmith doubts By Raymond Whitaker, Andy McSmith and Francis Elliott 01 May 2005 <snip> A damning minute leaked to a Sunday newspaper reveals that in July 2002, a few weeks after meeting George Bush at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, Mr Blair summoned his closest aides for what amounted to a council of war. The minute reveals the head of British intelligence reported that President Bush had firmly made up his mind to invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam Hussein, adding that "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy".

So, "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy" sounds a bit fishy, just like EVERY-FUCKING-THING else about this crime family and their delusions of grandeur.

[OberonDOtherseid]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Ober, You really believe this is a mission of mercy? That we are liberating these people? Why would we drop the ball in the 'War of/on Terror"; to liberate the people who tried to kill Shrubs daddy? Is anybody tallying up the liberated and the dead? No, that would not be conducive to the 'truth' they are feeding us. No-Bid Contracts?? Thats a subtle hint. Heres another subtle hint: So, "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy" sounds a bit fishy, just like EVERY-FUCKING-THING else about this crime family and their delusions of grandeur.

Ok, I'll ask SLOWLY...why do you only CARE about the suggested/alleged crimes of one side of this issue? Now, that CLEARLY offers neither side the onus nor the right to do ANYTHING, answer it or consider yourself incapable of being forthright and honest with your agenda.

Come on Dan, try it, answer it without the propaganda. You try to speak for everyone whilst you avoid the question. Put the strawman down and answer it.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: OberonDOtherseid Ok, I'll ask SLOWLY...why do you only CARE about the suggested/alleged crimes of one side of this issue?

Because we should lead by example. If the gentle giant America, sets a precedent for pre-emptive strikes we will be having world wide wars for profit. Our example that the Geneva Convention as "Quaint" will make torture SOP for all nations. I hate that. This is what makes us become what we hate.

Simple enough? I dont want to be the bad guys.

[Contrarian]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Because America signed the Magna Charta ....

Not to be rude, but the Magna Carta was signed by King John of England in 1215. That's more than 550 years before there even was a USA.

http://www.britannia.com/history/magna2.html

Judge for yourself how much of the document gives actual precursors to principles held (if not always followed) in the USA.

[gr8fuldaniel]

I stand corrected. Their are many humanitarian documents that we ARE signatories to, that is not one of them. Not sure what I was thinking. Thanx for correcting me, Contrarian. The International Bill of Human Rights and the CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1964, also, Kyoto Protocol are just a couple more. We Care. How can we bomb another country into accepting a mutant form of democracy? A farce, puppet democracy?

[gr8fuldaniel]

Here is another item that should have been reported here in the States, 1st. But the MSM is AWOL

Khaleej Times Online 'US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo, Iraq, Afghanistan' (AFP) 24 June 2005 GENEVA - Washington has for the first time acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said on Friday. The acknowledgement was made in a report submitted to the UN Committee against Torture, said a member of the ten-person panel, speaking on condition of anonymity. “They are no longer trying to duck this, and have respected their obligation to inform the UN,” the Committee member told AFP. “They they will have to explain themselves (to the Committee). Nothing should be kept in the dark.” UN sources said it was the first time the world body has received such a frank statement on torture from US authorities. <snip - - - - - - - - - - - > “They haven’t avoided anything in their answers, whether concerning prisoners in Iraq, in Afghanistan or Guantanamo, and other accusations of mistreatment and of torture,” the Committee member said. “They said it was a question of isolated cases, that there was nothing systematic and that the guilty were in the process of being punished.” The US report said that those involved were low-ranking members of the military and that their acts were not approved by their superiors, the member added. more....

Imagine that a few bad apples and no brass has any control over what the troops (mercenaries?) do.

(Note:
I just did a google and Forbes, of all people, just now covered the story:
http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx...fx2110388.html )

[gr8fuldaniel]

Strange that the "Liberal Media" let this one slip through the cracks:

UK Independant US lied to Britain over use of napalm in Iraq war By Colin Brown, Deputy Political Editor 17 June 2005 American officials lied to British ministers over the use of "internationally reviled" napalm-type firebombs in Iraq.

This story already went to archive. The rest of the story can be found here: Information Clearing House

[gr8fuldaniel]

I heard about this on the radio. I am going to go ahead and post this and then go looking for the origin of the story. I dont know about this source:

http://www.uruknet.info/?colonna=m&p...=x&size=1&hd=0 U.S. Military Personnel who died in German hospitals or en route to German hospitals have not previously been counted. They total about 6,210 as of 1 January, 2005. The ongoing, underreporting of the dead in Iraq, is not accurate. The DoD is deliberately reducing the figures. A review of many foreign news sites show that actual deaths are far higher than the newly reduced ones. Iraqi civilian casualties are never reported but International Red Cross, Red Crescent and UN figures indicate that as of 1 January 2005, the numbers are just under 100,000. by Brian Harring, Domestic Intelligence Reporter Note: There is excellent reason to believe that the Department of Defense is deliberately not reporting a significant number of the dead in Iraq. We have received copies of manifests from the MATS that show far more bodies shipped into Dover AFP than are reported officially. The educated rumor is that the actual death toll is in excess of 7,000. Given the officially acknowledged number of over 15,000 seriously wounded, this elevated death toll is far more realistic than the current 1,400+ now being officially published. When our research is complete, and watertight, we will publish the results along with the sources In addition to the evident falsification of the death rolls, at least 5,500 American military personnel have deserted, most in Ireland but more have escaped to Canada and other European countries, none of whom are inclined to cooperate with vengeful American authorities. (See TBR News of 18 February for full coverage on the mass desertions) This means that of the 158,000 U.S. military shipped to Iraq, 26,000 either deserted, were killed or seriously wounded. The DoD lists currently being very quietly circulated indicate almost 9,000 dead, over 16,000 seriously wounded and a large number of suicides, forced hospitalization for ongoing drug usage and sales, murder of Iraqi civilians and fellow soldiers , rapes, courts martial and so on – Brian Harring

OMG, They arent counting the Americans that get airlifted out of the war zone? Not sure if this is Under-Reported or from some rumor mill.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Still waiting for the MSM to step away from the bong and start reporting stuff like this:

Bush grants permanent legal immunity to US corporations looting Iraqi oil By Rick Kelly World Socialist Website 19 August 2003 An extraordinary Presidential Executive Order, signed into law by President Bush on May 22 but kept out of the pages of the US media, further underscores the real motivations behind the illegal US-led invasion and occupation of Iraq. Ostensibly drawn up in order to protect Iraq’s oil wealth, Executive Order (EO) 13303, “Protecting the Development Fund for Iraq and Certain Other Property in Which Iraq Has an Interest”, provides unlimited authority for US corporations to loot Iraqi oil and grants them permanent immunity from any legal actions over the consequences. EO 13303 begins with a declaration that the possibility of future legal claims on Iraq’s oil wealth constitutes “an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States.” It goes on to state that “any ... judicial process is prohibited, and shall be deemed null and void” with regard to the Development Fund for Iraq, as well as for any commercial operation conducted by US corporations involved in the Iraqi oil industry.

This EO 13303 gives immunity to mercenaries/contractors too.

[dilligras]

Please!

I'm dying here! You're crackin' me up!

Stop!

Just consider what a fool you're making yourself out to be when you suggest for one fraction of a picosecond that the same media who howls daily over casualty numbers and bodybags and draped coffins, is somehow reluctant to disclose the "real" numbers of dead and wounded in Bosnia.

What?

You're not talking about Bosnia? (you do know we still have troops there, right?)

Afghanistan?

Oh......Iraq.

What is this "educated rumor" crap? Is that what passes for a source on your planet?

World Socialist website indeed!!!

Pinheaded parsimonious prevaricators is more like it!

Yeah, that's where real Americans get all the straight skinney.[/sarcasm]

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: dilligras What is this "educated rumor" crap? Is that what passes for a source on your planet?

Look at the name of the thread, then look at the rules for this particular forum. If your planet had a free press and was not a pawn of the ruling class, would have a MSM that actually reported the festering evil in government. The story with the phrase "educated rumor" (post 94) has not been reported yet, that means you heard it here first. Are you apalled that your little retard president has been lying to you about the obsene number of Americans dying for oil profits? No, you are mad that the truth would be brought to light. Check yourself. Its not wrong that it happened but that somebody talked about it? Thats just sick.

Quote by: dilligras What? You're not talking about Bosnia?

Thats right, and I am not talking about Wounded Knee or Viet Nam, either. I am not talking about a lot of things. You are welcome to start a thread or contribute to this one, just try to stay on topic.

Quote by: dilligras World Socialist website indeed!!!

The MSM did not cover the story so I just grabbed one that was handy from google. There are plenty of stories about E.O. 13303 and it is a very real Executive Order, Why was there not one single mention of it in the major media? Full immunity from prosecution for ANYTHING done by American corporations in a foreign land is not news? Why dont you pull your head out and debate the facts rather than who is reporting them. Dont like the news, shoot the messenger, eh? Again I refer you to the name of the thread: "UNDER-REPORTED", bozo.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Here is the actual EO13303 its a 4 page pdf.

The real story here is in the title of the EO: Executive Order 13303

—Protecting the Development Fund for Iraq and Certain Other Property in Which Iraq Has an Interest

This EO is an overt action of bush to keep money away from the victims and families of 911. See, if Iraq is part of the war on "terra" as bush has implied but not proven, then proceeds of the war in Iraq can be attatched by the families affected by 911. So this is just bush spooning with the corporations. Again.

[dilligras]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Look at the name of the thread, then look at the rules for this particular forum.

And your point is.....what?

If your planet had a free press and was not a pawn of the ruling class, would have a MSM that actually reported the festering evil in government.

Festering evil? Oh, you mean like Senators Clinton, Kennedy, Kerry, et al? NOW you're saying something I can agree on.

Ruling class? Sounds like some good old commie propaganda to me.

The story with the phrase "educated rumor" (post 94) has not been reported yet, that means you heard it here first.

Is this what they mean by 'self agrandizement'? That's OK, but you're sounding like Rush, incessantly tooting his own horn.

Are you apalled that your little retard president has been lying to you about the obsene number of Americans dying for oil profits? No, you are mad that the truth would be brought to light. Check yourself. Its not wrong that it happened but that somebody talked about it? Thats just sick.

I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that you were going to give both sides of the argument, attributing your words and intent to me........shall I just sit back and let the master work?

No wonder some refer to "liberalism" as a disease, speaking of sickness.

Thats right, and I am not talking about Wounded Knee or Viet Nam, either. I am not talking about a lot of things.

I am not talking about Wounded Knee, Bosnia, or Vietnam,
"I do NOT like green eggs and ham!", said Sam I Am.

That's right!! Let's just pretend that the war in Iraq stands alone in history, with no similarities whatsoever to compare with any other.

Unless of course we percieve an opportunity to claim that Iraq is a "quagmire", thereby dredging up images of a previous failure to successfully prosecute a war...........a bit disengenuous, wouldn't you say?

You are welcome to start a thread or contribute to this one, just try to stay on topic.

Why, I am overcome with humble gratitude for your grandiose and unbounded generosity, although I must say that I would prefer that you refrain from giving me inappropriate and unsolicited instruction in the future. I hereby vow to reciprocate in kind, pending your approval.

The MSM did not cover the story so I just grabbed one that was handy from google. There are plenty of stories about E.O. 13303 and it is a very real Executive Order, Why was there not one single mention of it in the major media?

Excellent work, Dan.......how did you come across it if not thru some media?

As to your question, I cannot say. Only that it should come as no surprise, given the number of stories that get spun to a particular (usually lefty, given the percentage of left-minded journalists who infest the world's MSM) point of view, or, as you illogically suspect about this one, go totally unreported.

Full immunity from prosecution for ANYTHING done by American corporations in a foreign land is not news?

Of course it is...........where did you see such immunity granted?

I read the entire document you linked, and if it is that to which you refer, I would highly reccommend that you seek the assistance of a professional interpreter of the English language.

As it happens, you are most fortunate in that I am just such a professional, and will be glad to offer you said assistance for a modest fee.

Lesseenow.......I charge $50/hr, but the document was only a few pages, maybe 5 minutes of light reading, so how does $200 sound?

Oops! forgot the decimal point.(grin)

Why dont you pull your head out and debate the facts rather than who is reporting them. Dont like the news, shoot the messenger, eh? Again I refer you to the name of the thread: "UNDER-REPORTED", .

One must first be apprised of the facts, before one may reasonably be expected to debate them, and frankly my obstreperous ami, you have provided very little in that regard, much to my chagrin.

bozo.

MOMMY!!!

DANNY BOY'S CALLING ME NAMES!!!!

[gr8fuldaniel]