Did you know Hitler waged WW2 only to get the US?

[dotcoma]

I decided to post this here because it is not really a debate, but more of a talk on Hitler's intentions.

I was watching the History channel, and they were talking about chapters from mein kamf. I never knew that Hitler was invading Europe only to get enough raw materials and land to one day take on the US. The program talked about the huge ships he was building that would not be done until after the war with Europe (he thought).

Did anyone else know this?

Apparently Hitler viewed the US as a racially superior nation (all the superior/adventurous Nordic people went to the US, and the cowards stayed home).

[Matt W]

*laughs*

No, no, and yet a third no! Yes, Hitler would've seen the US as 'racially superior', but to suggest he waged war 'only' to get to the US is simply ridiculous.

Other motives include - Lebensraum, revenge against France, the destruction of Communism, the enslavement of inferior races such as the Slavs...I could go on, but the list is too large! Seriously - Hitler was one f*cked up individual - he believed that the way to grow was through constant war - so, yes, he would've eventually turned against the US - but there is no way that WW2 that just started for that purpose.

[Nono]

I never got that impression from Mein Kampf. Just about everybody is the object of some sort of rant in it, however brief.

Hitler can hardly have viewed the Great Immigrant Melting Pot as racially superior.
No, I think his big thing was conquering Europe to ensure Germanic supremacy, especially in the East where the Slavs were occupying land that rightfully belonged to the Germanics, in his view, and trying to poison The People through Bolshevism.

He probably figured that once he had Europe under lock and key the US wouldn't dare try anything stupid. But just in case, yeah, some big ships and dozens of other miracle weapons he was working on.

[Lilith]

Am I the only person in this forum who has not read Mein Kampf? B/c I'm starting to feel left out...maybe I should read it. But it's always looked like such a ponderous, pedantic text to me, never could summon the energy to tackle it.

[Matt W]

I really wouldn't bother. I know it through extensive study at school - the rise of the Third Reich was our 'specialist subject' during 6th form (that's ages 16-18, for non-UK folks!). It is the ravings of a deluded maniac. Unfortunately, no-one figured out that he meant what he said....*shrugs*

[Lou Minotti]

No, no, and yet a third no! Yes, Hitler would've seen the US as 'racially superior', but to suggest he waged war 'only' to get to the US is simply ridiculous.

How is what dotcoma said the least bit funny? Hitler saw the US/Britain as the economic engine that "the Jews"/communism would use to one day take over the world. It was his ultimate target. Nearly everything thing you mentioned Hitler saw as an extention of the "Jewish Conspiracy" and thus an extension of the US.

[Matt W]

I never said 'funny', I said ridiculous. Arguing over the 'ultimate' motivations of a madman, now that's funny. Yes, he would have gone to war against the US - did you not see me say that? But WW2 happened for a variety of reasons - as listed - not just as a stepping-stone towards the US.

[Nono]

Am I the only person in this forum who has not read Mein Kampf? B/c I'm starting to feel left out...maybe I should read it. But it's always looked like such a ponderous, pedantic text to me, never could summon the energy to tackle it.

I'd agree with Matt: don't bother. It isn't fun to read and not terribly interesting, at least except in the way it's somehow fascinating to think Yup, here it all is and somehow people generally still weren't able to view him as the lunatic he was. Which should give us pause.

[dotcoma]

I am sorry, I was a little confused. It was the unpublished book (recently translated into english in 2003). http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=44204

And yes Matt, laugh all you want, but Hitler states pretty clearly that he invaded France because he knew they would respond to Poland's invasion. He wanted poland because he needed the land and resources to prepare to fight the foe he viewed as the largest threat (since it's domestic economy was so big)..the US.

[Matt W]

*blinks*

Is anyone listening to what I'm saying out there? Taking the rants of a madman on face value...not the best idea.

Anyhow. Yes, Hitler was prepared for an invasion of France - but not just because of the US - he wanted revenge for the horrific conditions of the Versailles Treaty. And Poland was the obvious springboard towards the USSR - it gave them a common border, and he was obsessed with destroying the Communists, for perceived 'treacheries' during the inter-war years. The world doesn't just revolve around you lot across the Atlantic, y'know...we're pretty good at fermenting hatreds amongst ourselves.

[Nono]

Quote by: dotcoma Hitler states pretty clearly that he invaded France because he knew they would respond to Poland's invasion. He wanted poland because he needed the land and resources to prepare to fight the foe he viewed as the largest threat (since it's domestic economy was so big)..the US.

Are you saying that he invaded France pre-emptively?

[IndieC]

I will agree completely with you Matt. I have been studying this topic since GCSE (14 for non-UK guys), and the US may have been the ultimate target, it would explain why he was stupid enough to declare war on it when Japan did, but the issue is too complex to be summed up in that way. Even as a history/politics student now, I can't sum up the reasons for Hitler's declaration of WWII in much less than an essay, without giving them some credit. I will say this though, if Britain ahd been conquered after the Battle of Britain, or if Hitler hadn't got distracted and decided to bomb London and other major cities, then the war may very well have ended differently, with the US under very intense pressure, and no allies other than Russia, which may have been held back, if the Germans hadn't had to help the Italians in the Balkans because they were so hopeless at fighting that they were actually loosing against the Serbs, and were retreating back into Albania! The issue is simply too complex, as i said before, to talk about so generally.

[IndieC]

Quote by: Nono Are you saying that he invaded France pre-emptively?

If a year's waiting after the war is declared is pre-emptive i wish the US were more pre-emptive!!

[dotcoma]

Quote by: IndieC I will agree completely with you Matt. I have been studying this topic since GCSE (14 for non-UK guys), and the US may have been the ultimate target, it would explain why he was stupid enough to declare war on it when Japan did, but the issue is too complex to be summed up in that way. Even as a history/politics student now, I can't sum up the reasons for Hitler's declaration of WWII in much less than an essay, without giving them some credit. I will say this though, if Britain ahd been conquered after the Battle of Britain, or if Hitler hadn't got distracted and decided to bomb London and other major cities, then the war may very well have ended differently, with the US under very intense pressure, and no allies other than Russia, which may have been held back, if the Germans hadn't had to help the Italians in the Balkans because they were so hopeless at fighting that they were actually loosing against the Serbs, and were retreating back into Albania! The issue is simply too complex, as i said before, to talk about so generally.

Yes, I will admit that I am no expert on this topic, which is why I posted it within this forum, but the program I saw did say what you did (that Hitler saw Pearl Harbor as a chance to begin the war against the US).

[Nono]

Quote by: Indie If a year's waiting after the war is declared is pre-emptive i wish the US were more pre-emptive!!

Jeez, Indie, thanks for your impressive self-restraint. Couldn't hold back, could you? Now let me ask dot another question and I'd like to see what he thinks about it: By invading it, what did Hilter prevent France from doing to him over Poland?

[gr8fuldaniel]

I recommend "War Against the Weak----Eugenics and America's Campaign to Create A Master Race" by Edwin Black.
Heres a Review
Hitler was merely using the American model to eliminate Jews and Gypsies, that America had applied to Hillbillies and Blacks.
Hitler was "Keeping up with the Jones's"

Edit:
Maybe I shouldnt have said "using the American model" because Hitler used his own model..........He was after the same ends: A master race.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Bear in mind, it is not the elite aristocracy who fights and dies in these wars.
Here is a quote from the review in my last post:

The theory embraced by Davenport and his colleagues across America was "negative" eugenics. As opposed to the positive version, it sought to improve the species from the bottom up by preventing reproduction among what was termed the "submerged tenth" of the population. It proposed segregation, sterilization and, if necessary, euthanasia to achieve its goals. Black's research shows that America's elite supported these ideas from the beginning. Besides Carnegie, early patrons of Davenport's research included the Rockefeller Foundation and Mrs. E.H. Harriman, widow of the railroad tycoon. Eugenics was taught at Harvard, Yale and Princeton. It had the approval of public figures like Margaret Sanger, Woodrow Wilson and Alexander Graham Bell. It even received the imprimatur of the U.S. Supreme Court with an opinion written by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

[Lou Minotti]

Quote by: Matt W I never said 'funny', I said ridiculous. Arguing over the 'ultimate' motivations of a madman, now that's funny. Yes, he would have gone to war against the US - did you not see me say that? But WW2 happened for a variety of reasons - as listed - not just as a stepping-stone towards the US.

Uh, hello? The Nazi Movement?(so you would have to say madmen) What's even funnier is that you describe and seem to view Hitler in the same terms that Bush does Hussein. Dotcoma has the bigger picture, here.

[Matt W]

seem to view Hitler in the same terms that Bush does Hussein

I view Hitler by his writings, and by what he achieved. It kind of speaks for itself. If that's sanity, then I dread being sane. And indeed, he was a madman surrounded by madmen. Efficient ones, at that.

Dotcoma has the bigger picture, here

With all respect to dotcoma, as he has pointed out, he has a fairly focussed History Channel documentary, looking at some of the excerpts from Mein Kampf. I have other primary sources, and somewhere in the region of 4-5 years of study.

Did you actually bother to read any of what I said? I said yes, Hitler would almost certainly have wanted to compete against the US. Was that at the forefront of his mind when he launched the attack on Poland? I doubt it. Would he have taken on Russia if his pre-emptive goal was the US? Not likely. Certainly, not at the stage he did, with the war un-won in the West.

[dotcoma]

Matt, the program was talking about the book after Mein Kampf that was not translated until 2003. Hitler stated very clearly that Poland was invaded to obtain farmland and resources needed for the war against the US. France was to be invaded first because they had the airforce to bomb Germany if it invaded Poland, and Britain was to be negotiated with to avoid conflict.

All I am saying is what they said Hitler said in his recently translated book. They said that he clearly stated that the whole point of controlling Europe was to defeat the largest opponent to global takeover: the US.