Gang will target Minuteman vigil on Mexico border

[tivodan1116]

So Lou, you're saying that Americans want to work picking fruit and vegetables from sunup to sundown for little pay? That's strange, because a large part of the economy of the area where I live depends on migrant workers, because, guess what? Americans won't do it! These jobs are there for the taking every season, and most farmers would rather obey the law then hire illegals, but they can't hire enough legal workers to do the job! Simple supply and demand in a free market economy seems to have eluded you: If there was no demand for these workers, they would cease to be hired and therefore the economic incentive for them to be here would be removed, therefore they would stop coming. The fact that they return year after year proves their labor is in demand. Call me when you finish economics 101.

And YOU are the one who cracks me up. You claim that people who have realized that migrant workers are important to our economy are "One Worlders" as if living in peace with fellow man was some derogatory trait, and then claim that they have no solutions, when 6 posts above you there was a soultion suggested, if not in great detail: adequate provisions for seasonal workers. What many people do not realize is that such procedures existed at one time, until I believe the mid-1970s.

[Lou Minotti]

So Lou, you're saying that Americans want to work picking fruit and vegetables from sunup to sundown for little pay?

Americans are willing to pick fruit, yes. But no, that wasn't what I was saying. Not even close.

That's strange, because a large part of the economy of the area where I live depends on migrant workers, because, guess what? Americans won't do it!

Myth.

Simple supply and demand in a free market economy seems to have eluded you:

That's funny. I have yet to address the economic effects of illegal immigration. Interesting assumption based on....oh, um, nothing, actually.

If there was no demand for these workers, they would cease to be hired and therefore the economic incentive for them to be here would be removed

You have failed to take into account a pluthera of ther factors beyond mere supply and demand.

The fact that they return year after year proves their labor is in demand. Call me when you finish economics 101.

Call me when you finish Econ 362...

But I hadn't even addressed any economic factors until this post. Are you mistaking me for someone else?

[Lou Minotti]

"For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada"

[letxa2000]

Quote by: rmnunez The Mexican military is corrupt and the forces deployed for drug interdiction at the border are the most corrupt, but its a problem with the upper levels in the officer corps, not something that trickles down to the foot soldier.

Interesting, because it's the "foot soldiers" that are deployed near the border, not upper levels of the officer corps.

rmnunez: tiny, the overwhelming majority of those crossing without the proper formalities are not criminals. The overwhelming majority of the undocumenteds in the US are not criminals other than for their irregular entry, they are just laborers trying to pass unnoticed. Cephus: Of course they are, by definition! If they cross the border illegally, they are commiting a crime and are thus, CRIMINALS! 100% of *ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE CRIMINALS!*

That's what rmunez said!

Quote by: Cephus llegal aliens are killing the economy of the border states.

That's a gross over-simplification of the problem, I'm afraid. But it sounds good as a sound-byte, doesn't it?

Quote by: Lou These people (with the help of Fox's government and others) are violating Americas rights as a sovereign nation.

What help has Fox's given to anyone to violate the U.S.'s sovereignty? Oh, none? That's what I thought.

Quote by: Lou "For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada"

You might as well be quoting the KKK and suggesting that they represent most Americans or whites. Picking the most radical, fringe group and fear-mongering with their quotes to try to characterize the viewpoints of an entire race or nationality is childish and dumbs down this debate. But I'm getting used to that with you.

[oranged]

Maybe border patrol agents are the ones who are terrorists. Slaughtering innocent mexicans as the try to come into this country. Maybe the US law is faulty.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tivodan1116 So Lou, you're saying that Americans want to work picking fruit and vegetables from sunup to sundown for little pay? That's strange, because a large part of the economy of the area where I live depends on migrant workers, because, guess what? Americans won't do it! These jobs are there for the taking every season, and most farmers would rather obey the law then hire illegals, but they can't hire enough legal workers to do the job! Simple supply and demand in a free market economy seems to have eluded you: If there was no demand for these workers, they would cease to be hired and therefore the economic incentive for them to be here would be removed, therefore they would stop coming. The fact that they return year after year proves their labor is in demand. Call me when you finish economics 101.

I don't know what you do for a living, or even if you have a job. But if you do, would you be willing to stay in it if the pay was $5 an hour with no benefits? Or, how long would your boss keep you on the payroll if he found someone that could do your job for $5 an hour, again without having to pay for benefits? Of course anyone working for these wages would never be able to afford health insurance, so they simply go to the emergency room for every ailment, where, by law, they are given the best medical service that the taxpayers can afford to provide. Thus, the taxpayers are subsidizing the people that are hiring these migrant workers. Of course their labor is in demand! They send their wages back home to maintain a household based on the local economy in Mexico, I have to make enough in wages to support a home here in California. Big difference. If they were paid enough to live here like the rest of us have to do, you'd find no monetary advantage to hiring them. Sounds to me like economics 101 is as far as you got.

[letxa2000]

Quote by: zeebadee But if you do, would you be willing to stay in it if the pay was $5 an hour with no benefits? Or, how long would your boss keep you on the payroll if he found someone that could do your job for $5 an hour, again without having to pay for benefits?

That's almost what you earn at McDonalds and, again, with no benefits. There is no law stating that anyone must provide benefits. And there is no law saying anyone must pay more than minimum wage. We're talking about unskilled labor here. Why in the world should they get paid more than minimum wage? Why do you think they're entitled to benefits?

Of course anyone working for these wages would never be able to afford health insurance, so they simply go to the emergency room for every ailment, where, by law, they are given the best medical service that the taxpayers can afford to provide.

Just like McDonald's employees.

Thus, the taxpayers are subsidizing the people that are hiring these migrant workers.

I guess the taxpayers are also subsidizing the people that are hiring for McDonalds, Wendys, KFC, Pizza Hut, Subways, etc. etc. You haven't mentioned anything about picking in the fields that is any different than any of the other minimum wage, no-benefit jobs that are out there. About the only thing that I see that is different is that the pickers are mostly illegals because very few Americans want to do that kind of manual labor for very low wages.

Of course their labor is in demand! They send their wages back home to maintain a household based on the local economy in Mexico, I have to make enough in wages to support a home here in California.

So are you picking in the fields to support a home in California? I doubt it. And while many of them do send money home, the vast majority of their money is used just to support them in our economy. It's not like they're earning $5/hr and making 5x40=$200/week and sending $200/week down to Mexico. If they can scrape together $30 or $40 they're lucky. Most of the money they earn doesn't leave our economy.

If they were paid enough to live here like the rest of us have to do, you'd find no monetary advantage to hiring them. Sounds to me like economics 101 is as far as you got.

True. And if you could make enough money to live in the U.S. by picking in the fields and still have a nice house, I think Americans would be willing to do the work. But you're not going to be able to do that which is why poor Mexicans are the only ones that growers can find to do the work.

Speaking of which, do you have any idea of what would happen to the price of produce if the growers suddenly had to start paying union Americans $20/hr instead of Mexicans $5/hr? No, the growers aren't going to absorb that. They're going to pass that right along to you. The growers don't care if they pay $5/hr or $20/hr (as long as his competitor is paying the same amount)--it's the consumer that pays the bill in the end.

So we, the taxpayers, may be subsidizing health care for some poor Mexicans that barely squeak by. But unless you eat virtually nothing, you're getting that right back in extremely cheap produce.

That'd be Econ 201. Class dismissed.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: letxa2000 That's almost what you earn at McDonalds and, again, with no benefits. There is no law stating that anyone must provide benefits. And there is no law saying anyone must pay more than minimum wage. We're talking about unskilled labor here. Why in the world should they get paid more than minimum wage? Why do you think they're entitled to benefits?

Now think back.... I never said they were, did I?? And you didn't answer my questions, did you? " ...would you be willing to stay in it if the pay was $5 an hour with no benefits? Or, how long would your boss keep you on the payroll if he found someone that could do your job for $5 an hour, again without having to pay for benefits?"

[letxa2000]

...would you be willing to stay in it if the pay was $5 an hour with no benefits?

No, I wouldn't, especially having to work long hours under the California sun. And most Americans won't either. Which is exactly why Mexicans are willing to take those jobs. Even at $5/hr, they earn as much as an hour as they otherwise would in a day.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: letxa2000 No, I wouldn't, especially having to work long hours under the California sun. And most Americans won't either. Which is exactly why Mexicans are willing to take those jobs. Even at $5/hr, they earn as much as an hour as they otherwise would in a day.

So, if you wouldn't be willing to remain in your current job for $5 an hour, and your boss found an illegal immigrant that would, your job could then be characterized as one that an American wouldn't do. Would it fair be for you to have to compete economically with someone that was here illegally and willing to work for such a wage?

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Zeebadee So, if you wouldn't be willing to remain in your current job for $5 an hour, and your boss found an illegal immigrant that would, your job could then be characterized as one that an American wouldn't do. Would it fair be for you to have to compete economically with someone that was here illegally and willing to work for such a wage?

Yes, it would. Going back to my original post, it's called supply and demand. When there is a supply of workers willing to do the job for less, either lower your asking price or be out of work. The concept of illegal immigration only exists for the same reason as the concept of protective import tariffs... To guard Americans against foreign competition. Well, the foreign competition has figured out a way around it. I suppose you are not in favor of a free market economy? Well, I am.

Let's get one thing straight: Americans are not competing for jobs picking fruit. I don't know why you refuse to believe this, but to anyone with a brain it is obvious that anyone with a better option isn't lining up to spend all day in the hot sun doing tough labor for little pay. You may say it's a "myth" that Americans won't do these jobs, but I don't think you've ever been anywhere near a produce farm, as I have.

[rmnunez]

it is obvious that anyone with a better option isn't lining up to spend all day in the hot sun doing tough labor for little pay

The key is this "better option". Sometimes it seems like the critical left appreciates these miserable jobs the Mexicans take are a "better option" for the masses of unemployed or underemployed, but I suspect they don't realize the attractiveness found in the non-employment options available; welfare, unemployment compensation, training programmes... Next time you see a suspected Mexican laborer, ask yourself if you would like his job.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Let's get one thing straight: Americans are not competing for jobs picking fruit. I don't know why you refuse to believe this, but to anyone with a brain it is obvious that anyone with a better option isn't lining up to spend all day in the hot sun doing tough labor for little pay. You may say it's a "myth" that Americans won't do these jobs, but I don't think you've ever been anywhere near a produce farm, as I have.

I very much DO believe this. Of course Americans aren't "competing" for jobs picking fruit. There also is very little competition for any other job that pays so little. If, however, there was no competition from illegal immigrants, wages would rise to the point where Americans would be more than willing to compete for those same jobs. And with so much of our produce now being imported, the increased costs to the consumer would be nowhere near the catastrophic predictions of the proponents of unrestricted immigration. ("DOES ILLEGAL LABOR REALLY REDUCE FOOD PRICES?", - http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=9357) And I grew up in California's central valley, so don't try to tell me what I know about farming or raising livestock.

Of course, you currently have pretty much the entire federal government on your side of the discussion. Mr. Bush has been pushing one amnesty program after another since day one of his administration. But what program that benefits big business (and agri-business is certainly that) hasn't he been pushing? Yes, like his own private war (being fought with other people's kids), this issue will undoubtedly be decided in the manner you desire. But IMO, history is going to record the Bush administration as one of the lowest points in the evolution of this nation. Ethics, governmental accountability, integrity, fiscal responsibility, immigration policy, governmental secrecy, erosion of Constitutional guarantees, environmental issues, you name it, Bush has compromised it. In fact, except for a single temporary tax cut that benefitted the rich far more than anyone else, I can't think of a single thing that Bush has managed to accomplish that will add respect or honor to his dismal legacy. You want absolute free market competition in labor costs?? Be careful what you wish for!

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Next time you see a suspected Mexican laborer, ask yourself if you would like his job.

Maybe the better question would be, " I wonder what this job would pay if this guy had stayed in Mexico".

[Lou Minotti]

What help has Fox's given to anyone to violate the U.S.'s sovereignty? Oh, none? That's what I thought.

Uhh, he openly advocated people to come here. His government passes out flyers detailing the best way to get here. Didn't know that? That's what I thought. Go back and stalk Jack Blood.

"For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada"

[Lou Minotti]

Maybe the better question would be, " I wonder what this job would pay if this guy had stayed in Mexico".

Or even, "I wonder how much Mexican citizens could make in Mexico if their government wasn't a despotic police state that ISN'T free market which is the reason why US and International Corporations are able to exploit it's labor and resources?"

[Cephus]

Quote by: letxa2000 That's a gross over-simplification of the problem, I'm afraid. But it sounds good as a sound-byte, doesn't it?

It's also true and I live in one of those border states. Illegals are putting hospitals out of business, killing our schools, over-extending out police forces and undermining the economy. That's undeniable, although I'm sure you'll pretend otherwise.

[Cephus]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Yes, it would. Going back to my original post, it's called supply and demand. When there is a supply of workers willing to do the job for less, either lower your asking price or be out of work. The concept of illegal immigration only exists for the same reason as the concept of protective import tariffs... To guard Americans against foreign competition. Well, the foreign competition has figured out a way around it. I suppose you are not in favor of a free market economy? Well, I am.

Hell, why not get kids working in factories for $1 a day then! It's supply and demand, right? If you can get kids to do dangerous work for a pitance, so much the better!

See, we have this thing in this country that you might not have heard of, called LAWS? You might want to look those up.

[Lou Minotti]

That's undeniable, although I'm sure you'll pretend otherwise.

No, they won't even pretend. They'll just imply you're a racsist for wanting secure borders. When I used the term "American sovereignty" Rick hit back with Nazi-related buzzwords like "Fatherland". Pretty sad. The Ford Foundation sure has spread a lot of their money around.

"For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada"

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Cephus Hell, why not get kids working in factories for $1 a day then! It's supply and demand, right? If you can get kids to do dangerous work for a pitance, so much the better! See, we have this thing in this country that you might not have heard of, called LAWS? You might want to look those up.

Typical strawman baloney. Kids are not consenting adults. Plain and simple, consenting adults should be allowed to work for whatever wage they are willing to work for. It is xenophobic and racist of us to say either that Mexicans are not deserving of the same jobs and opportunities as us, or that allowing people to travel thousands of miles for the chance at a better life is "exploiting" anyone.

It's also true and I live in one of those border states. Illegals are putting hospitals out of business, killing our schools, over-extending out police forces and undermining the economy. That's undeniable, although I'm sure you'll pretend otherwise.

::excuse me in advance for blatant sarcasm::
Oh no, what a horrible thing! Human beings want a chance at a decent education, health care, a safe environment, and a decent job! We have to send them away as fast as possible for breaking our completely arbitrary law that says if you are born on the northern shore of the rio grande, you are an American, and if you are born on the southern side and come north, you are a criminal.