Meet Your Meat

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: bishop what a response.. welcome to the ignore list.

I guess he didn`t like the fact that he was exposed for twisting words.

My whole post above his still stands. He has not addressed any of it and I take that that he concedes his analysis was wrong and that he admits to the distorting of words. Silence is telling.

Bishop, in case you are still peeking in, I care not that I am on your ignore list or that you have disengaged. You have addressed few points if any, other than to just try to shore up RickSp`s persona.

Bye, you are not missed by me. The issues can be put forth without you.

[RickSp]

I've always found it intriguing how really funny humorless zealots so often are. Lacking all perspective and even a tangential connection to reality. Always good for a chuckle.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: RickSp I've always found it intriguing how really funny humorless zealots so often are. Lacking all perspective and even a tangential connection to reality. Always good for a chuckle.

RSP, why don`t you try adding something to the discussion on the issue rather than focusing on the person putting forth the issue?

[RickSp]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin RSP, why don`t you try adding something to the discussion on the issue rather than focusing on the person putting forth the issue?

Buy a mirror, bucky.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin you are myopic and shortsighted, RSP I`ve definitely equated your reasoning with those of Nazi's and slaveholders, not to mention questioning YOUR lack of ability to argue and debate. Now, be a good boy....

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: RickSp Buy a mirror, bucky.

RSP, why don`t you try adding something to the discussion on the issue rather than focusing on the person putting forth the issue?

[RickSp]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin RSP, why don`t you try adding something to the discussion on the issue rather than focusing on the person putting forth the issue?

LOL. Your fondness for pointless repetition has already been noted.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: RickSp LOL. Your fondness for pointless repetition has already been noted.

RSP, why don`t you try adding something to the discussion on the issue rather than focusing on the person putting forth the issue?

[RickSp]

I believe the recording is stuck. What once would have been called a broken record.

[Aeris]

Ok, Strongheartswin...I have a question for you...what about people who eat meat to survive? Because they have to? Please read my entire post before you respond.

I was raised on a vegetarian diet. It was ok, I guess. I was pretty low in my weight class for kids because of the low body fat. Ha, the doctors even threatened to call child services once. They were concerned I wasn't getting the proper fats for development. I'm still shorter than I'm supposed to be. But that's niether here nor there.

Tofu makes me sick - food aversion. Before you say, "Get over it," please fully recognize what a food aversion is. I vomit it back up before I have the chance to "Get over it." Beans are pretty much the same situation - I just got sick as a child from tofu and beans all the time. Even lacto-ova messes with my system because lactose intolerance runs in my family.

The only efficent source of protien for me is meat. And good God, the minute a steak touches my stomach I feel like the happiest girl in the world. Because I need the iron, I need the fats, and most of all I need the protien.

I don't like the idea of killing animals - I don't like the idea of killing anything. But what I like even less than that is the idea of my body cannibalizing my muscle tissue until there is nothing left. I don't like the idea of killing myself to save a few cows. Does that make me a selfish meat eater? Does that make me a slavetrader or a nazi to support a corporate system that is keeping me alive?

[CoffeeSaint]

Forgive me if I am hopping into an argument with a point that has already been raised, but if the issue is the ethics of factory farming (the lack of ethics, rather) why not suggest that people buy meat from companies or farms that kill humanely? If the issue is health concerns, all I can say is, HA! I smoke, and I eat meat. Guess which one's going to kill me first. I don't think it's the meat, which makes me think that the desire to argue against eating meat because people would be healthier without it is a bit hollow -- let alone Aeris's point about people who do need to eat meat to get a reasonable amount of protein, or what have you.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Hi Aeris. Thanks for joining the discussion and adding to it in a positive way.

Quote by: Aeris Ok, Strongheartswin...I have a question for you...what about people who eat meat to survive? Because they have to? Please read my entire post before you respond.

Ok, will do. Have done so. When you say "survive," I automatically imagine societies still living deep in the rain forest or the Arctic Circle. I have never said those kinds of people who are engaged in a harsh existence for their survival pitted directly against the elements should not do what it takes for them to survive.

That said, I don`t think your post was concerning them, right? I think you were referring to medical reasons -- such as allergies to certain protein based plant food, right? I address that further down.

I was raised on a vegetarian diet. It was ok, I guess. I was pretty low in my weight class for kids because of the low body fat. Ha, the doctors even threatened to call child services once. They were concerned I wasn't getting the proper fats for development. I'm still shorter than I'm supposed to be. But that's niether here nor there.

I agree. I don`t think it is relevant to this discussion because we have no way of knowing for sure that it was your parants' diet which they put you on that caused you to be short.

Tofu makes me sick - food aversion. Before you say, "Get over it," please fully recognize what a food aversion is. I vomit it back up before I have the chance to "Get over it." Beans are pretty much the same situation - I just got sick as a child from tofu and beans all the time. Even lacto-ova messes with my system because lactose intolerance runs in my family.

So, would I deprive you of your life since you cannot physically live on a plant based diet without being sick all the time? No, I wouldn`t. We all have as much right to life as any other person. I do recall that there is a VERY SMALL percentage of the population whose body cannot live without meat. You may be one of them. If that is your honest assessment from sick reactions and doctors have confirmed that with tests, who am I to deprive you of your life? I would not.

You just have to or should ask yourself if that is an honest reason or more of an excuse to eat meat. I have no reason to doubt you, but testimonials are hard to verify in a forum like this I usually don`t accept them. But for argument`s sake, I have stated that I would not deny someone their diet if that diet guaranteed their life due to no other substitute being available.

The only efficent source of protien for me is meat. And good God, the minute a steak touches my stomach I feel like the happiest girl in the world. Because I need the iron, I need the fats, and most of all I need the protien.

Have you seen the video "Meet Your Meat" and the one in my signature "Free Me?" It is through their abject misery that your happiness is bored out. I would suggest a solemn feeling of gratitude and respect for the horrible lives they were forced to endure.

I don't like the idea of killing animals - I don't like the idea of killing anything. But what I like even less than that is the idea of my body cannibalizing my muscle tissue until there is nothing left. I don't like the idea of killing myself to save a few cows. Does that make me a selfish meat eater? Does that make me a slavetrader or a nazi to support a corporate system that is keeping me alive?

It is hard for me to comment because you played the medical card in a testimonial. Aeris, if you did not have the food aversion you are referring to that causes you to get sick, would you continue eating meat for the pleasure of the pallate, or would you forgoe that pleasure and cease consuming it?

Thanks for your excellent post. A pleasure responding to it. Looking forward to your reply.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Aeris I don't like the idea of killing myself to save a few cows. Does that make me a selfish meat eater? Does that make me a slavetrader or a nazi to support a corporate system that is keeping me alive?

As Hitler supported vegetarianism, for health not moral reasons, calling non-vegetarians Nazis or claiming that their reasoning is akin to Nazism, is both historically inaccurate, as well as being intellectually lazy. While no one suggests that vegetarians are Nazis, shouting " you are like Nazis" seems an absurdly inapt metaphor to direct again the dreaded "flesheaters."

“One may regret living at a period when it’s impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there’s one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian.”- Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER’S TABLE TALK

(Sounds oddly similar to a quote from Einstein, doesn't it?)
Hitler was a vegetarian


To believe that non-vegetarians are akin to slavetraders requires the odd belief that bovines pork and chicken are persons, too. Not a perspective that most of us share. Reminds me of the bizarre refrain from "Finding Nemo" where the sharks chant "Fish are friends, not food."

[Aeris]

Quote by: RickSp As Hitler supported vegetarianism, for health not moral reasons, calling non-vegetarians Nazis or claiming that their reasoning is akin to Nazism, is both historically inaccurate, as well as being intellectually lazy. While no one suggests that vegetarians are Nazis, shouting " you are like Nazis" seems an absurdly inapt metaphor to direct again the dreaded "flesheaters." (Sounds oddly similar to a quote from Einstein, doesn't it?) Hitler was a vegetarian To believe that non-vegetarians are akin to slavetraders requires the odd belief that bovines pork and chicken are persons, too. Not a perspective that most of us share. Reminds me of the bizarre refrain from "Finding Nemo" where the sharks chant "Fish are friends, not food."

Rick, I'm sorry - I was scanning posts and I came to the conclusion that either you or another post seemed to think SHW was comparing meat-eaters to Nazis and slavetraders. I was simple trying to see if he would compare me to such as well.

This is not my comparison.

[Aeris]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Have you seen the video "Meet Your Meat" and the one in my signature "Free Me?" It is through their abject misery that your happiness is bored out. I would suggest a solemn feeling of gratitude and respect for the horrible lives they were forced to endure.

I have seen "Meet your meat", as I have seen "The Meatrix" and others. It doesn't bother me - these animals were never meant to be anything but food.

Quite frankly, it seems a bit uppity to suggest what emotions I should feel while enjoing a good cut of beef.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Aeris, if you did not have the food aversion you are referring to that causes you to get sick, would you continue eating meat for the pleasure of the pallate, or would you forgoe that pleasure and cease consuming it?

Ha! At first I misread this and went into a rant on what a food aversion was. Sorry about that!

Hmmm, no. Quite frankly, I believe meat itself is part of a healthy diet.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Aeris Rick, I'm sorry - I was scanning posts and I came to the conclusion that either you or another post seemed to think SHW was comparing meat-eaters to Nazis and slavetraders. I was simple trying to see if he would compare me to such as well. This is not my comparison.

SHW has indeed compared meat eaters to Nazis and slave traders, more than once. I did not mean to imply that you had done so. Unlike SHW's fanaticism, your comments seemed completely rational.

[Aeris]

Quote by: RickSp SHW has indeed compared meat eaters to Nazis and slave traders, more than once. I did not mean to imply that you had done so. Unlike SHW's fanaticism, your comments seemed completely rational.

Ha. Sorry about that then. Seems like I'm reading everything wrong today.

Of course, that just made me realize that SWH never adressed the true question of my post:

Despite my illnesses, does eating meat make me comprable to nazis or slavetraders?

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Aeris I have seen "Meet your meat", as I have seen "The Meatrix" and others. It doesn't bother me - these animals were never meant to be anything but food.

You are resting your reason on "the end justifies the means."

Quite frankly, it seems a bit uppity to suggest what emotions I should feel while enjoing a good cut of beef.

You were the one who brought up your "emotions." Look:

Quote by: Aeris And good God, the minute a steak touches my stomach I feel like the happiest girl in the world.

If you don`t want your emotions to be touched on with a reply, then you shouldn`t put them out there as part of the discussion. Once you do, they become fair play. Why do you think they are allowed to be used in a reply by you but then become off limits to the reader who`d like to comment on them? Don`t you believe in a level playing field for discussion and that all parties have equal access for use on what is put forth? I do.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin
Aeris, if you did not have the food aversion you are referring to that causes you to get sick, would you continue eating meat for the pleasure of the pallate, or would you forgoe that pleasure and cease consuming it?

Hmmm, no. Quite frankly, I believe meat itself is part of a healthy diet.

Then why even bring up your "aversion?" You asked me to read your whole post before replying so that I may give weight to your "need to survive" testimonial based on your medical condition. That is why it is not good to use testimonials -- all it ends up doing is creating the need to later get back to the general issue. They are diversions and waste a lot of time.

So, here is your quote repeated in part:

I believe meat itself is part of a healthy diet.

Meat is not necessary for a healthy diet and one of the most exhaustive compiliations of references by the world`s largest association of professional nutritionists clearly puts that forth in their position paper on vegetarianism and highlights the benefits a vegetarian diet shows to have over a flesh eating diet. So you won`t have to scroll around Volconvo looking for it, here it is: American Dietetic Association

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Aeris Seems like I'm reading everything wrong today.

Yes, you are -- not to mention not understanding what you yourself are asking and not understanding when your questions have been addressed.

Of course, that just made me realize that SWH never adressed the true question of my post:

Aeris, you stated and asked:

Ok, Strongheartswin...I have a question for you...what about people who eat meat to survive? Because they have to? Please read my entire post before you respond. ...

and

... But what I like even less than that is the idea of my body cannibalizing my muscle tissue until there is nothing left. I don't like the idea of killing myself to save a few cows. Does that make me a selfish meat eater? Does that make me a slavetrader or a nazi to support a corporate system that is keeping me alive?

And I took your testimonial into account based on the medical reasons you offered by answering with:

So, would I deprive you of your life since you cannot physically live on a plant based diet without being sick all the time? No, I wouldn`t. We all have as much right to life as any other person.

and

I would not deny someone their diet if that diet guaranteed their life due to no other substitute being available.

Now, why do you think I have not answered your medical needs based question? Is it because I did not state, "You are definitely not a Nazi, Aeris!"? Do inferences escape you?

Nazis or slavetraders did not have a need to engage in those practices of murder or slavery to insure their biological survival. You made the arguement in testimonial form that you needed meat to survive based on an aversion or medical need. The two are NOT analogous so my saying "I would not deprive you of what you needed to survive" should have let you infer that I was not saying your reasoning was based on slavery or Naziism because your reason was one based on medical reasons and slavery and murder of Jews, gypsies, and homosexuals were not based on medical reasons, but rather on reasons of exploitation and prejudice.

Despite my illnesses, does eating meat make me comprable to nazis or slavetraders?

See what I mean about wasting time with testimonials? Afer all this, you have had to dismiss the whole point of your testimonial. And, what is amazing is your questions were based on that testimonial -- so much that you wanted me to be sure to read it first so that I would base my answer on that. Now you want me to not consider it.

I am wondering if you could ask the question again in a clean post fully divorced from your testimonial, since you seem confused on what you want to ask, thus your backtracking. Do so, and you will get your answer.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin I am wondering if you could ask the question again in a clean post fully divorced from your testimonial, since you seem confused on what you want to ask, thus your backtracking. Do so, and you will get your answer.

I'd like to ask my question again, if I may.

If the issue with eating meat is a health issue, and you are trying to improve the health of others, surely there are other issues that should be at least as important: global warming, for instance, which threatens the long term health of all humanity, or alcohol abuse; perhaps, if you want to stick to dietary issues, you should address American obesity, a problem that is not caused simply by eating meat, though meat eating may compound it. You might reach more people, and improve the health of more people, by speaking to an issue that they are already aware of and recognize as problematic.

If the issue with eating meat is the horrible and unethical practices of factory farming, why not simply argue against factory farming? Why not try to convince people to stop buying meat that comes from the slaughterhouses shown in those videos, and instead buy meat from those who raise and kill animals humanely? Pressure from the free market would be far more effective in stopping factory farming than would political pressure, since factory farming companies can apply far greater pressure than can ordinary citizens.

If the issue with eating meat is that animals are as valuable as humans, then why not argue that, specifically? Why not show the qualities that animals have that make them as good as humans (or better), or describe the accomplishments, or simply try to capture the wonder of the natural world? People will feel guilty about eating wonderful animals if they recognize how wonderful animals are -- I doubt they will simply because they have been preached at.

I don't see your current arguments accomplishing any of these goals, and so I wonder why you stick with them. I understand that you hope to reach the audience, not your opponents, but you are attacking their dietary habits and personal morals as well -- and it seems your strongest arguments are the links you provide. Wouldn't your position be stronger with the links sans attacks?

[StrongHeartsWin]

CoffeeSaint, that was an excellent post! I just PMed you about it. I am going to answer it in detail over a series of 3 or 4 posts because you had clear distinct suggestions that stand on their own. Like I said in the PM, though, you may have to wait until later tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks for the constructive comments.