Gringisms:

[rmnunez]

Idiomatic Indiosyncrases

Mine: I am prepared to make this concession to simple-minded gringoes in not refering to them as such, all I ask is that none refer to them as "Americans". Reply: You are asking for people to not refer to themselves as Americans if they are from the country that all western dictionaries refer to them as such? Is this really logical/reasonable, and does it do anything but distract from the debates?

I suspect you can't appreciate how distracting it is to find people from the US refered to as "Americans". Dictionaries compile definitions in order of priority based on most frequent meaning in accepted usage of the language they are rendering; my dictionary (OED) says American is from America (that's the first and most common meaning for the term when used by English speakers).

This is the basis for my preference for "gringo"; that I lack an adequate term for people from the US that doesn't assert I've verified their citizenship. The gringoes (all 330 million of them) favour "American", but at least as many hispanics across Latin America, plus a fair number of Spaniards, other Europeans and people around the world learned long ago in primary school of the continents and one of them is America, not a country. In Mexico, officially people from the US are "estadounidenses" (united statians) but this seems rather long and somewhat ambiguous to me, besides, it confuses since Mexicans are also this as the country's official name is "Estados Unidos Mexicanos". Another discarded alternative was "norteamericanos" (North Americans) which is used in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America to refer to the people from the US -obviously Canadians and Mexicans would also be included. The preferred term in Spain for gringoes is Yankee (sometimes spelled "yanqui") however I discarded this too since people in the US distinguish as Yankees the people on the Union side in their Civil War.

Lacking a more adequate term I considered "gringo". The term apealed because it is short and suggests the cultural dimension associated with a whole life-style, attitude, a cultural identity of sorts, something equally implicit as when one refers to Mexican or French things (this citizenship dimension we want to suggest but not assert in a national designator). But before opting for its use I considered the possibility it could cause offense. My research disclosed the term "gringo" is said to derive from 2 possible folk sources; either it was a song sung by pioneers as they crossed the prairies "...green groes the grass..." and overhead by Mexican llaneros as they roamed those prairies, or it refers to the popular demand raised by Veracruzans upon US naval capture of the city ("green go!") as in US leave (the US military forces wore green uniforms).

Given the 2 possible sources for the term, with only one of them being a possible cause for offense (some from the US may interpret it as suggesting they are unwelcome) I concluded the only offended would be those who read into the term a Mexican admonishment for their interventions. Since I believe those admonishments should be taken to heart, that the people from the US ought to be apologetic for the abuses inflicted then, before and since to Mexico, it does not bother me to offend people there who interpret the expression "gringo" as an insult for their intervention.

Additionally, as I have come to establish myself in Mexico, some of their ways and mannerism are adopted, Mexicans don't usually refer to people from the US as "Americanos" either, they call them "from the US" (if speaking in English) and either "estadounidenses", "gabachos" or "gringoes" (when in Spanish). If you had to choose one of the 3 and were communicating with people from the US, which of them do you think is best? Is "estadounidenses" more clear, intelligible, easily understood, than "gringoes"? I figure "gabacho" is even stranger, no?

I am not asked to call the gringoes Americans, just not to say they are gringoes, I can resort to "people from the US", it is more cumbersome though. However, as I find myself in a benevolent spirit, mindful of the possible misinterpretation by those who have not considered this matter as carefully, I am willing to make this concession; I will call gringoes whatever they prefer, except "Americans" unless we are referring to a collective that includes more than one American country.

[Sean]

What do you call Europeans? They are labeled as a region and as nationalities. The US is labeled American likely because it is the most dominant state in the region.

I will also repeat what I have said to you before:

It is all about context. It is now common for nearly everyone in the western world, the Middle East, and Asia to refer to us as Americans. When you make it a point to refer to us as something else it distracts from the debates, and seems to imply that we are not worthy of the term. The term we wish to be labeled is the one we have had for years. We are a group of states on American land-we are Americans.

[bishop]

you're a dumbass rmnunez.. how you were adorned as a mod is beyond most of us.. with your long-winded attempts at intellectualism, and your piss poor grasp of the facts - as well as your tendency to quit debates when your bullshit is called out... i suppose i can tolerate you calling all americans gringoes - even if the vast majority of us have absolutely no connection with latin america/spain.. call us gringos, i'll continue to think of you as a moron - who talks a good game, but also an unconvincing one. and, i'm certain that i'm not the only person who feels this way, even if the man in charge doesn't care. anyone else who agrees, feel free to chime in..

word to the wise (which i don't think you are) - you want respect, don't call us gringoes and possibly you might get some respect in return. :)

[PatrickHenry]

Like I have said before, I can't figure how a Mexican could possibly buy into the invasion/occupation agenda that Washington has these days. Mexico lost California that way. Then something came through regarding Nunez: he's not Mexican, he's an American ex-pat. Probably with a military background, clueless losers that many of them are regarding the reality of politics. But I think you do him wrong, bishop, by characterizing his debate as dumbass. He is at least polite, if exasperatingly one-sided. I kinda like Nunez, 'cause we need some foils to keep things tumbling. And conservative mods are hard to keep around here. Plus, I think Nunez is one of the original members from the early weeks of Sean's Grand Experiment. I do wish we could convince him of the pejorative nature of the term "gringo." It's almost as bad as "gabacho."

[bishop]

oh, he's definitely polite - which is why i try to limit my criticism as much as possible in the other forums.. but this is flame-fest, so i feel liberated to tell him my honest opinion.

i know of at least one other american ex-pat on this site, and he's much more intellecutally proven than rmnunez is.. the guy's currently living in japan - for a hint.

honestly, i don't care if he's a mod, since i don't anticipate on posting anything that he would have to touch... but as far as stupidity goes, he's an ace.. the guy's been caught on so many bogus statements that i've honestly lost count. that'd be a good research project if you're really interested enough to go digging around through the older threads here.

so long as his debate is lost on the facts (can't remember any threads where he's seriously cited articles), his debates will be seen as dumbassed by my standards. you yourself criticize other members when they never cite sources for their statements, yet you don't seem to have a problem with it when good ol' nunez does the same.. can't have it both ways i'm afraid.



but all that said, i'd instantly quit my criticism if he would simply keep his idiotic "gringo" banter to himself.. i descend from italian and hungarian immigrants - WAY after the alamo battle.. i'm no fucking gringo, whatever that retard says.

[G. Adams]

Surely it would be up to none-US citizens of the American continent to begin to call themselves American, rather than deride or re-term those of the US?

[Nono]

Personally I'm damn tired of hearing Hispanics complain about English usage. If when they use the word "America" in Spanish they wish to define it as stretching from Ellesmere Island to Tierra del Fuego, that's fine. But they shouldn't try to impose their view of things on our language, which knows what it means by "America" and "Americans".

By contast, both Spanish-speakers and English-speakers would spontaneously agree that "gringo" is simply a term of abuse no different from "beanmouth". Which makes rummie a cheap little bigot when he uses it.

[rmnunez]

Europeans are called Europeans, but no single nationality there claims the title as theirs only. Thus in Europe, the Belgians don't tell the Italians, "we are Europeans and you cannot use the label for anyone else" (the gringan contention is that only they are "Americans"). The early colonists in the US adopted the label "Americans" to differentiate themselves from their European colonial masters in Britain -those were Europeans, these "American". In this sense it seems appropriate, adequately distinguishes between the two, there were no other "Americans" at the time. Now we got about 40 different countries across the American continent, to describe the ones from only one of those countries as "Americans" suggests the others are not as well. Additionally, it is clear "American" derives from "America", like Italian from Italy or German from Germany. Logically, American would be "from America" but the US is not known by anyone (other than gringoes) as "America".

I'm damn tired of hearing Hispanics complain about English usage

Nowadays Newsweek says 3 in 4 English-speakers learned it as a second language, we have a right to say how the language should be used too.

[Matt W]

Actually, it's my language, not yours. I'm English, dammit, it's my language, and I'll tell people what to do with it!!!!

[Matt W]

And Rmnunez - all of the world (bar other Americans) knows the US as 'America'. Tell me, are Chinese 'gringoes'? Are Russians 'gringoes'? When people talk of 'the American dream', where, exactly, are they referring to? I think you'll find it's the US.

[Nono]

"The wogs start in Calais."

Old English proverb :)

[Matt W]

Ah, the glory days of Empire

[Nono]

Quote by: rmnunez Logically ...

Look, rummie, logic doesn't apply to human language. You ought to know that. You're not going to get anywhere trying to argue the appropriateness or inappropriateness of usage. It just pisses people off.

[rmnunez]

I understand gringoes might not be too particular with their grammar but remember most people speaking English today are not native speakers, this will have to have impact on acceptable English usage. Most other languages are fairly rigid with their grammar (Spanish sure is) and this suggests they (particularly Hispanics) would favour strict compliance with whatever rules prevail in English. "American" is the origin designator for things from America, the suffix works as a nationality designator only for subjects of a country whose name forms the root of the origin designator. Since we don't have any country called "America", American cannot be other than the native of that continent. These are the rules of 'proper' English, there can be no argument to sustain the claim correct usage would be to apply the origin designator of a continent to a subordinate national entity within it -particularly since there are several national entities within America and this is not the name of any.

[Matt W]

Rules??? In English?

*laughs hysterically*

The first rule is - that they are there to be broken.

And as I've already said, the majority of the world, excluding Hispanic Americans, view the US as 'America' - and use 'America' when talking exclusively about the US. As the phrase goes - tough!

[Nono]

Quote by: rmnunez I understand gringoes might not be too particular with their grammar …

Not nearly as careful as hispanophones, of course. Especially those residing in Latin America.

Most other languages are fairly rigid with their grammar (Spanish sure is) ...

Flexible grammar is one factor that has propelled English to the top of the heap, burying French and Spanish along the way. Anyway, ain't about grammar.

Most people speaking English today are not native speakers, this will have to have impact on acceptable English usage.

As it already has and is constantly doing. But the use of "America" hasn't budged an inch. And therefore, rummie, it's still standard usage throughout the English-speaking world to understand "America" as meaning the United States. And there are no signs that this is about to change.

You're all hung up on "rules" and "correct" and "argument", as if these concepts had anything to do with living language. They don't.

[PatrickHenry]

"God Bless America"
http://ingeb.org/songs/godbless.html

[tusaki]

I have to agree with the others here. When you talk about Americans or America, it usually refers to the US. tough luck :\. When you see the protesters in the middle east shouting "death to America", they refer to the US and would blink a couple of times and look generally confused if Mexico or Brazil started to object to the unrelenting agression towards them. It might not be "fair", but it is reality. And it is not something so terrible that it's impossible to live with.

Instead of forcing the use of "the US" instead of "America", I propose we rename the continent... much easier. How about "Auropasia", to reflect upon the indigenous population.

I do not agree with Bishops rant and I find it to be a bit out of proportion, even though this might be flame fest.

[rmnunez]

Many of you indicate the US is commonly refered to as "America" by other than gringoes, I wonder how true this is. I've been to a few foreign countries and it didn't seem that way to me. In Britain I perceived a somewhat derisive use whenever the term "Americans" was used. In Spain, as noted before, they call gringoes "Yankees" and this expression in various phonetic transliterations commonly decorates protestors banners (usually followed by "go home"). I don't know whether it is the case most Asians or Africans have adopted gringan usage.

I would distinguish "formal" from other usages. Governments, official documents, authorities and such don't use "American" to refer to gringoes, though colloquially people everywhere have. When discussing "proper" usage, particularly by a community like the hispanics, who tend to have a high regard for formal rules, the use of "American" would naturally be disfavored as it contravenes several. I would have expected Asians to be more mindful of grammatical propriety too.

It is argued English grammatical flexibility and its tendency to accomodate usage should suggest "American" is the correct term, but to most non-native English speakers language is not something whose rules can be changed so easily.

[PatrickHenry]

What language are we posting with here, Nunez?

"Gringo" is pejorative. Your argument would be like me saying I need to use the word "nigger" to categorize people of African descent, because the word derives from the latin word for black, "nigr-"
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...=negro&x=0&y=0

It's is still pejorative in current usage and therefore, offensive. Get off the gringo kick, dude. You're being obstinate...