Mexico on the scene:

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez You are under the misapprehension Paisanos are some sort of social burden on the local treasure. In fact most undocumenteds travel without family or any dependants. They typically assume a minimal profile (they would prefer to pass unnoticed). If one of them is injured, he'd have to be unconscious or in very bad shape before taking the chance of being carded at some hospital, the last thing they want to see is a cop in uniform -deportation naturally follows. By the time they have kids who need innoculations or public education (such as it is) they've been in the US for years, steadily saving (they only send back about a third of what they make). They do gain from existing infrastructure (mass transit, roads and things that can be anonymously used) but its hardly something that overwhelms the system. As far as the criminal burden, there must be some (they are practically 15% of the population) but much lower than its incidence among warrantied to be authentic and genuine 100% gringan "African-Americans".

As usual, you speak out of your ass. According to you, these people are the salt of the earth and we are just damned lucky they decided to illegally come here instead of some other country. Get real.

"There are over 300,000 estimated anchor babies born to illegal alien mothers each year in the U.S. - babies who automatically attain citizenship. Illegal alien mothers now add more to U.S. population each year than immigration from all sources in an average year before 1965.

FAIR estimates "there are currently between 287,000 and 363,000 children born to illegal aliens each year. In 1994, California paid for 74,987 deliveries to illegal alien mothers, at a total cost of $215.2 million (an average of $2,842 per delivery). Illegal alien mothers accounted for 36 percent of all Medi-Cal funded births in California that year."

In a recent year in Colorado, the state's emergency Medicaid program paid an estimated $30 million in hospital and physician delivery costs for about 6,000 illegal immigrant mothers - average of $5,000 per baby. Those 6,000 births to illegal aliens represent 40% of the births paid for by Medicaid in Colorado. Those 6,000 babies immediately became U.S. citizens and qualified for full Medicaid services, with a cost yet to be tabulated.

The federal Emergency Medical Act mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens. Medical service for Americans in affected communities is being severely damaged as hospitals absorb more than $200 million in unreimbursed costs. Some emergency rooms have shut down because they cannot afford to stay open. Local tax-paying Americans are either denied medical care or have to wait in long lines for service as the illegals flood the facilities. In California, the losses are calculated to be about $79 million, with $74 million in Texas, $31 million in Arizona, and $6 million in New Mexico.

These costs are staggering. The Cochise County, Arizona Health Department spends as much as 30 percent of its annual $9 million budget on illegal aliens. The Copper Queen Hospital in Bisbee, Arizona, has spent $200,000 in uncompensated services out of a net operating budget of $300,000. The University Medical Center in Tucson may lose as much as $10 million and the Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center, also in Tucson, has lost $1 million in the first quarter of fiscal 2002. "(http://www.theamericanresistance.com...alth_care.html)

Yeah, tell me more how I am under the "misapprehension Paisanos are some sort of social burden".

[rmnunez]

I'd figure basic biology would suggest its impossible any of those two-thousand-dollar babies could have been conceived in less than 9 months, what do you think that undocumented Mexican was doing between bouts on the mattress?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez I'd figure basic biology would suggest its impossible any of those two-thousand-dollar babies could have been conceived in less than 9 months, what do you think that undocumented Mexican was doing between bouts on the mattress?

Uh, maybe gardening for rich Americans? What does that have to do with anything?

[rmnunez]

Zee, the contention is that Mexican undocumenteds represent a huge burden on the gringan social treasure and care for their 300 thousand newborn children is cited as an example. Since children normally take about 9 months to produce the costs alleged, and given most undocumenteds aren't travelling with their wives about to give birth (though I've heard it has happened). I'd figure in most instances those kids were born to people who had been in the US for several months (at least 9). If medical care for their kids is highlighted as an imortant cost and its one that doesn't result until the undocumented has been there for at least 9 months, then up until that moment there is no use of that social treasure, and only after about 9 months there is a rather minor cost (a couple thousand dollars) incurred. I'd figure 9 months of productive activity by undocumenteds in the US produces greater benefits to that country than the amount incurred in delivering these babies.

[rmnunez]

Update on the state of the Mexican economy:

Mexican GDP grew by 3.9% last year (the US’ grew by 4.7), industrial production rose by 5.4% and the unemployment rate was estimated at 3.8% (in the US it is about 5.8%). The inflation rate hovers at 9.5% (in the US its about 3.3%). Mexican exports (90% to the US) came to 176 bill. while they imported 181.7 bill.

In the first half of 2004, investment in tourism grew by $1.97 bill. (a 39% growth over the prior 6 months). CEMEX is paying $4.1 bill (cash) for British cement producer RMC Group and will assume $1.7 bill. in debts. PEMEX successfully moved $1.75 bill. in bonds in EU and Asian markets, will use the revenue to finance capital improvements. HYLSAMEX steel producer prepaid $75 million in bank loans and took out another $175 million to settle other debts at more favourable rates, reducing their financing costs by over 10%. GRUPO MEXICO mining reduced $200 million in debt and secured $600 million in credit from Banamex. GEO Construction created a co-financing program with BBVA-Bancomer to provide $174 million in mortgage financing. A similar deal was done with Banco Azteca but details are pending. GRUPO ELEKTRA Retailers opened 100 new stores and relocated 30 at a cost of $120 million, 25 new stores are in the pipeline. Industrial Mexican conglomerate DESC sold its 51% in Velcon (a constant velocity joint-aker) for $85 million to GKN-UK (an automotive components manufacturer). Peoplesoft announced it had secured a $50 million contract to upgrade Mexico’s Tax Administration systems. GRUPO TMM trucking will acquire 51% of the Texas-Mexico railway branch to Kasnas City Southern railroad (KC must purchase the balance by Halloween). HERSHEY FOODS said its Mexican subsidiary is buying GRUPO LORENA confectioneers which had sales of over $30 million last year and VJ Jeanswear, US clotheirs announced it was relocating operations from 2 of its El Paso plants (and 1,035 jobs) to Mexico.

(from Latin Trade -an international business magazine)

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Zee, the contention is that Mexican undocumenteds represent a huge burden on the gringan social treasure and care for their 300 thousand newborn children is cited as an example. Since children normally take about 9 months to produce the costs alleged, and given most undocumenteds aren't travelling with their wives about to give birth (though I've heard it has happened). I'd figure in most instances those kids were born to people who had been in the US for several months (at least 9). If medical care for their kids is highlighted as an imortant cost and its one that doesn't result until the undocumented has been there for at least 9 months, then up until that moment there is no use of that social treasure, and only after about 9 months there is a rather minor cost (a couple thousand dollars) incurred. I'd figure 9 months of productive activity by undocumenteds in the US produces greater benefits to that country than the amount incurred in delivering these babies.

As usual, you ignore the facts and merely repeat what you want us to hear. Can you back any of this garbage up with some evidence?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Update on the state of the Mexican economy: Mexican GDP grew by 3.9% last year (the US’ grew by 4.7), industrial production rose by 5.4% and the unemployment rate was estimated at 3.8% (in the US it is about 5.8%). The inflation rate hovers at 9.5% (in the US its about 3.3%). Mexican exports (90% to the US) came to 176 bill. while they imported 181.7 bill. In the first half of 2004, investment in tourism grew by $1.97 bill. (a 39% growth over the prior 6 months). CEMEX is paying $4.1 bill (cash) for British cement producer RMC Group and will assume $1.7 bill. in debts. PEMEX successfully moved $1.75 bill. in bonds in EU and Asian markets, will use the revenue to finance capital improvements. HYLSAMEX steel producer prepaid $75 million in bank loans and took out another $175 million to settle other debts at more favourable rates, reducing their financing costs by over 10%. GRUPO MEXICO mining reduced $200 million in debt and secured $600 million in credit from Banamex. GEO Construction created a co-financing program with BBVA-Bancomer to provide $174 million in mortgage financing. A similar deal was done with Banco Azteca but details are pending. GRUPO ELEKTRA Retailers opened 100 new stores and relocated 30 at a cost of $120 million, 25 new stores are in the pipeline. Industrial Mexican conglomerate DESC sold its 51% in Velcon (a constant velocity joint-aker) for $85 million to GKN-UK (an automotive components manufacturer). Peoplesoft announced it had secured a $50 million contract to upgrade Mexico’s Tax Administration systems. GRUPO TMM trucking will acquire 51% of the Texas-Mexico railway branch to Kasnas City Southern railroad (KC must purchase the balance by Halloween). HERSHEY FOODS said its Mexican subsidiary is buying GRUPO LORENA confectioneers which had sales of over $30 million last year and VJ Jeanswear, US clotheirs announced it was relocating operations from 2 of its El Paso plants (and 1,035 jobs) to Mexico. (from Latin Trade -an international business magazine)

You evidently forgot to mention a few other items -

"Many police officers in Mexico City and elsewhere shake down motorists and take bribes to protect illegal street stalls and other businesses.

"For as long as I can remember," says Mexico City Police Chief Alejandro Gertz, "this is a police that has harmed everyone who lives in this city and this country with some act of corruption or inefficiency or inability." International surveys have long ranked Mexico as one of the world's most graft-ridden nations. One joke making the rounds in Mexico City has the country placing high on yet another corruption survey. Mexico would have topped the list, the punch line goes, if chagrined Mexicans hadn't slipped the judges a little something. "Corruption," Gertz says, "is what has wrought the bad distribution in our economy, the grave problems that we are confronting every day, the impossibility to continue growing as a country, the immense debts we have, the collapse of our money, the poverty, the misery of more than 50 percent of our population."

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory...xnewsun/752147

[rmnunez]

Didn't forget anything, the Latin Trade magazine just didn't make any reference to this police problem (which is well recognized here). Gertz is right, the police are corrupt, often even criminal (an El Pais article I remember noted half the crimes in Mexico City are perpetrated by the police. Only recently have we seen some progress on police corruption; they've raised their wages to a base of about $800/mo. are requiring physical qualifications and all sorts of job-training, newly enrolled must even get a college degree. It is a tough row to hoe, the improved pay should help, we need some sort of grass-roots type of public adversity to bribing though. Just last year they made it illegal to pay bribes (receiving them has always been). Entrenched bad habits are hard to lose, we now have a campaign to encourage honesty and no more "mordidas".

The problem with corruption and lack of transperancy, as with the criminal cops is chronic and endemic. The expression used in finer circles is "judicial insecurity" and it involves a range of negative practices from the mundane setting aside of parking spaces to huge graft in government agencies. The overwhelming bureaucracy incentivizes people to get around their problems with cash at the weakest and most accessible point, the petty functionary. At the registry of deeds in Mexico City there are now individual cameras permanently monitoring each clerk at every window and microphones record their conversations, the tax office is getting like this too. Corruption is bad for business and the corporate figures and financiers are constantly pressing for improvements here. The government is all for it, but the opposition challenges every step of the way.

[rmnunez]

Rice is in Mexico, there are lots of things on the agenda (immigration, trade, security, interference, political favours, investment...)

On Wednesday, Rice told Univision, a Spanish-language television network, that she hoped Bush's package of proposals to overhaul immigration laws would move forward soon. "But it's a very difficult issue," she said, "and we do need to make certain that it's done right." http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...a_st_pe/rice_2

I don't think Rice has any idea what all is involved here, she's not been very engaged on this, hope she was adequaltely prepped, but its probably more like a "fact-finding" excursion for her to get the views in Mexico. I'll get back with reactions once the event transpires.

[Zeebadee]

"...she hoped Bush's package of proposals to overhaul immigration laws would move forward soon."

Why make immigration laws? The ones we have now aren't enforced, why bother with laws?

How about this: Whatever rights we give Mexican citizens in this country, they reciprocate and give the same rights to American citizens that go to Mexico. Free schools for our kids, free medical care, free access to jobs, etc. Let's make all our immigration policies completely bilateral.

[rmnunez]

Zee, if gringoes in Mexico were treated like the Mexicans in the US, no gringoes would come to Mexico.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Zee, if gringoes in Mexico were treated like the Mexicans in the US, no gringoes would come to Mexico.

More bullshit drivel. Yeah, sure, Americans are treated with the highest respect when we go visit Mexico. That must be why they good-naturedly refer to us as gringoes, we all know that's merely a fond term of endearment.

[rmnunez]

Zee, honestly who do you think gets treated with more respect, Mexicans in the US or gringoes in Mexico?

While on the matter of respect, Arizona representatives, including their governor, Janet Napolitano, failed to receive a Mexican senatorial delegation visiting the state to learn about their new legislation barring undocumented access to public services (Law 200). During the visit which ended today, the Mexican senators expressed their concern over the controversial legislation and over the presence of paramilitary groups at the border. During their 3 day visit, the senators met with Arizaona legislators and members of the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce in Arizona, faculty at Arizona State University and community leaders, but neither the mayor of Phoenix, Phil Gordon, nor the governor of the state met with the Mexicans. So much for gringan respect.

In light of the criticism over the chilly reception afforded Mexico´s senators, consul-general for Arizona Carlos Flores noted no meeting with the governor had been schedulled. "The governor of Arizona is a friend and we agreed she could not offer views on any proposed legislation while it remains under review (refering to a number of proposed legislative initiatives relating to the controversial reforms). That seemed like a rather diplomatic answer from the Mexican, but that's his job, to be respectful for his hosts.

Senator Miguel Sadot Sánchez Carreño (PRI-Oaxaca) found the visit achieved its goals: "I think we learned more about the proposed legislation, what programs are affected and the anticipated impact on the Mexican community. The Senator (who heads the Senate's Human's Rights Commission) also noted one of their aims was to show the Mexicans there their legislators support them and their efforts. "I want to tell the Mexicans living in Arizona that they are not alone in their struggle, and that in Mexico we will do everything we can to offer them more assistance."

During their visit, the Mexican senators met with US Attorney Paul Charlton, to whom they voiced concerns over the procedural situation in the cases of 51 Mexicans held convicted of capital crimes without benefit of consular notice (the US federal government is working on this). The Mexican senators also voiced concern over the recent announcement of a "Minuteman Proyect" by a group of vigilantes to ambush undocumented Mexicans at the border in April. "The US Attorney General indicated that under their laws all people have a right to express their views, to associate themselves in groups and to carry weapons", the senator said. Sanchez added that Charlton had promised his office would closely monitor the group behind the "Minuteman Project" and intervene in the event of any unlawful activity.

The unlawful activity is schedulled to begin April 1st and may involve hot-headed racist gringoes with shiny new weapons, hard-core members of the notorious Mara Salvatrucha gangs and poor Mexicans trying to make their way in the dark, probably a few clutzy Border Patrol guys will get involved in the ruckus too.

http://estadis.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/272327.html

[Zeebadee]

"The unlawful activity is schedulled to begin April 1st...."

The unlawful activity is the continuing crossing of our border by illegal, undocumented people. We have a right, in fact a responsibility, to enforce our immigration laws, just as any nation has. The beaners crossing illegally won't have any problem with any of the "vigilante" groups if they don't break our laws. You continue to believe that Mexicans have a right to come into this country whenever they want, and I continue to disagree with you. If beaners don't want to face vigilante groups, then they should get the proper documentation before entering the U.S.

[rmnunez]

Zee, vigilantism in the US refers to unofficial civilian groups engaged in legal self-help of sorts, usually claiming failure of their government in performing perceived duties. The unlawful activity refered to and schedulled to start April 1st is not the continuing illicit border crossing by undocumenteds (this is ongoing) rather than the forecasted effects resulting from this "Minuteman" deployment, namely their firing upon dark shadows in the night they think are undocumenteds, and the anticipated involvement of Mara Salvatrucha gang members attacking these "Minutemen".

Nobody disputes the lack of a Mexican right to cross the border illicitly, they are supposed to use passports. The problem is that quite a few fit the profile of indigent illiterate peasants who may be unaware of the proper procedure, these could not form the requisite legal intent to cross illegally. Among the undocumenteds who do know about the proper procedures, a majority likely skip it as it does not serve their purpose (visas are not issued for temporary but non-touristic, education, artistic, sporting, business related or professional visits). What we need, as noted previously, is some sort of scheme to accomodate temporary guest workers, Bush is said to be working on this.

[rmnunez]

The US must invest in Mexican development and ease immigration:

To consolidate North American integration, the region's leaders must reverse the growing development gap between Canada and the US on the one hand, and Mexico on the other, according to a “Chairmen's Statement” by the New York-based Council on Foreign Relations. Mexico's Fox has been particularly disappointed by Bush's lack of interest. Fox had been hoping for a major breakthrough on immigration that would have made it easier for Mexicans to enter the US and to remain there to work when the 9/11 attacks took place, but since then immigration reform has been put on the back burner, while the political climate inside the US has generally become more hostile to immigration. Indeed, Bush's failure to deliver substantial immigration reform is often cited as one of the major causes for the steady decline in the public standing of Fox and his PAN party. Many analysts here now believe that the 2006 presidential elections will be won by the PRD, Mexico's most left-wing mainstream party and one that has been most sceptical about the benefits of NAFTA and North American integration. ”AS A MATTER OF THEIR OWN NATIONAL INTERESTS (emphasis in original), all three countries should do more to encourage broad-based economic development in Mexico.” In addition to the importance of Mexico implementing publicly supported policies that will attract investment, the US and Canada should establish a North American Investment Fund to create infrastructure that links the poorer parts of the Mexico to the markets in the north and support education and technical training for Mexican states and municipalities, the report urges. Other steps to promote further integration include adopting a common external tariff on a sector-by-sector basis at the lowest rate consistent with international trade obligations, according to the report, which stresses that ”unwieldy rules of origin” and regulatory differences among the three countries are raising the costs of trade rather than reducing them. On the immigration front, the chairs called for creation of a border pass with biometric indicators that would expedite passage through customs and immigration throughout the region and the adoption of a unified Border Action Plan to boost regional security. Such a plan would mean harmonising visa and asylum regulations, joint inspection of container traffic entering North American ports; syncronised screening and tracking of people, goods, and vessels, the establishment of a trinational threat intelligence centre and joint training for law-enforcement officials, and closer military cooperation. http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=27862

I agree with the CFR's chairmen. All the issues I've identified and we've discussed right here (investment for Mexico's development, immigration, US security concerns and trade restrictions) are addressed.

[rmnunez]

According to "El Universal" a Mexico City daily, Wal-Mart will pay between $10 and $11 million for US authorities to seal an investigation of their hiring of undocumented workers which resulted in the arrests of 250 immigrants working for Wal Mart. According to Gilberto García, an attorney representing a group of the arrested immigrants, Wal-Mart has agreed to pay for the investigation, but will not be fined or sanctioned for breach of labor regulations and hiring undocumenteds without work permits. Mr. Garcia represents about 80 immigrants, half of them are hispanic, the rest mainly Czechs, who last October were apprehended in INS raids on Wal Mart stores across 21 states. Most of the undocumenteds were able to remain in the US after agreeing to cooperate with the authorities in the investigation, but their work permits will expire at the end of April or early in May, when they could be deported.

[rcne]

rmnunez,

The US must invest in Mexican development and ease immigration:

I believe we do, NAFTA and such. But that hasn't stemmed the flow has it.

Why do you think that those of us in the US 'must' do anything? Also the minutemen patrolling the borders have every right as a citizen of the US to stop trespassers and detain them for the border patrol.

Why doesn't Fox deploy forces along the border to keep your nationals from crossing our border?

Ease immigration? - you assume the border is not easy enough to cross with or without immigration papers?

[rmnunez]

Yes, the US does invest plenty in Mexico, I've seen US government analyses that do show a positive effect on controlling immigration from Mexico thanks to maquiladora establishment. Employment is the reason undocumenteds cross and conditions would need to improve substantially before illicit immigration stopped completely, but it wouldn't take close to comparable conditions since the distance, risk, all those fortifications Border Patrol and fanatic ranchers, plus the language, all would remain.

The moronic minutemen are booking "reservations" in Bush's home state to "hunt" Mexicans, their visits sponsored by hardware stores promoting their sale of weapons and ammunition for this purpose. Its not about tresspassing, which in any case would be something the ranchers, but not their guests could protect against (and never with lethal force).

Undocumenteds in Mexico making their way to the US breach no laws until they step on to gringan soil, the Mexican military then can do nothing.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Wal-Mart has agreed to pay for the investigation, but will not be fined or sanctioned for breach of labor regulations and hiring undocumenteds without work permits.

A perfect example of our own government refusing to enforce laws already on the books relating to illegal immigration.

Quote by: rmnunez Most of the undocumenteds were able to remain in the US after agreeing to cooperate with the authorities in the investigation, but their work permits will expire at the end of April or early in May, when they could be deported.

Yeah, sure. They get to stay because they "cooperated" in an "investigation" that accomplished absolutely nothing. Imagine the police tracking down a criminal, fining him the amount of money it cost to find him, then letting him go.

Want to bet how many of these people the "authorities" will be able to find in April or May? Better yet, want to bet that those "authorities" will even go look for them?