Mexico on the scene:

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez The fact that properly documented migrants wouldn¡t be allowed to cross anyway suggests the problem isn't so much with their lack of papers, rather than with where they come from. Perceptions on such discriminatory practices will affect how Hispanics in the US regard the ruling establishment there. Those people are going to be the largest group in the US within a couple of elections.

Garbage. Properly documented migrants are allowed to cross. The fact is that U.S. law limits the number of immigrant visa numbers that are available every year. In addition, U.S. law also limits the number of immigrant visas available by country. The illegals cross because they can't (or won't) get the proper documents.There's no discrimination involved unless you believe that the U.S. doesn't have the right to apply any controls over it's own borders. I'm sure you knew this already, so I assume you're just flame-baiting by trying to turn this into a discrimination issue. It seems these days that any issue where a minority doesn't get what it wants brings the immediate whine of "Discrimination!!".

[rmnunez]

Yes, US law limits the number of visas awarded, there are quotas or allotments assigned based on discretionary determinations the US govenment is entitled to make concerning the people allowed in. However, the visa allocations are irrelevant as the Mexicans who migrate to the US don't fit the typical profiles these visas are designed to fit; they usually are not migrating, at least not permanently. What is needed is a new sort of "visa", one that applies to the people of a neighboring country who are only termporarily travelling to the US, though not as tourists.

[Zeebadee]

First of all, I don't agree that the illegals "usually are not migrating, at least not permanently". Could you back up this assertion?

Second, you agree that the U.S. government is entitled to make discretionary determinations concerning the people we allow into this country, then you tell us that we need to make a new visa to allow these "temporary" people in. Why do we need to let in everyone that wants to come here?

IMHO, allowing foreign workers to come here and, because they will work for less pay, take jobs that Americans could be doing is no different than outsourcing high tech jobs to China or India because those people will also work for less pay. In fact, it's worse, because when migrant workers aren't paid a living wage, the taxpayers have to subsidize their employers by paying for the social programs used by those workers, i.e. health care, schooling, food stamps, etc.

In reality, of course, it's probably true that Americans won't do most of the jobs that these migrants are hired for. We don't seem to be able to force unemployed people to take a job. And I don't see either political party doing anything effective to correct or prevent any of the problems caused by unrestricted immigration, all we get is more amnesty programs. So, who cares?? Let 'em all in.

"This water lives in Mombasa anyway".

[rmnunez]

Zee, I think Mexicans migrating are not "permanent" because it is reported nearly 200 thousand cross the border into Mexico from the US on their way to visit family for Christmas every year. The average Mexican "immigrant" reports having been to the US an average of 3 times, but many cross the border several times a year and work (off and on) in the US for several years before accumulating enough capital to set themselves up at home.

There is no requirement for the US to allow anyone in, but the argument the visa regulations should be upheld suggests these make sense and suit the US aim to control inflows. What I was noting was that the visa procedure was designed to classify people visiting the US as either tourists or immigrants. The average undocumented Mexican who goes over doesn't go as a tourist and rarely leaves with the intent to stay in the US forever, they don't usually go with the hope of becoming gringoes either -what they want is temporary employment. There are a variety of visa types for students, touring artists, professional consultants, sports figures and others, but we've got none for seasonal farm workers and menials -this is what is needed.

[rmnunez]

Mexican president Fox and Secretary of State Derbez will meet with Condoleeza Rice on March 10th. Ms. Rice was invited by Derbez and they will cover basic elements in the bilateral agenda.

http://estadis.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/270120.html

[rmnunez]

I fed up with this pinche gringo attitude about the Mexicans. These people deserve a great deal more respect than they are given. Gringoes should try and not offend Mexicans calling them “wetbacks”, “beaners”, or even “illegals”. Mexico has a great deal of respect for the US, Mexico gives due deference, abides by gringan regulations in trade and finance, doesn’t interfere in their domestic affairs, doesn’t inflate its currency making war on third parties. Mexico pays its debts with interests ahead of schedulle, in oil and even at a discount.

[Zeebadee]

Sounds like some of the gringoes have offended the beaners. If Mexico is such a paradise on earth, then why are the beaners coming north by the thousands? And if the beaners were truly offended, then why aren't they staying home?

[rmnunez]

Gringo, try and imagine what it would be like to be a Mexican illegally crossing the border in the dark, thinking of your family and all you know left behind in a formidable gamble as you dodge the bullets and dogs of a bunch of your patriotic rancher countrymen, to start from nothing in a foreign land. A place where you know you will be exploited taking advantage of the illegality of your condition but where you’ll nonetheless earn 6 times what you’d get for the same job (if there only were one) back home. Would you like to be pointed out pejoratively as a “wetback” or “beaner”? Aren’t these offensive gringan epithets misdirected at a courageous, persistant, imaginative and enterprising people who could contribute valuably to that society?

[Zeebadee]

Then it might be a better idea for all those "exploited" to stay home and fight to rid Mexico of the entrenched corruption that encourages them to leave. Any country that has oil reserves is rich these days, why can't Mexico take care of it's own people instead of dumping them on the U.S. taxpayers? If these people are so "courageous, persistant, imaginative and enterprising", then why does Mexico want to get rid of them?

And if you don't like pejorative terms, then why do you use them?

[rmnunez]

Mexico doesn't want to get rid of its Paisanos, they are admired, beholden for their courage and romanticised in song for the daring risks they take. At their hometowns, the average Mexican gardener is an important figure. He and a few others on his street or in his small rural community, probably built the City Council, they are all the top income generators in the town, they periodically return with all sorts of appliances and equipment for their families who've naturally applied these to the improvement of the community as well. They build and fund infrastructure (the Mexican government has a new program to double whatever they contribute in public improvements), invest and provide employment, foster local consumption. In Mexico, these Mexicans in economic exile are important and powerful (dumb gringoes think they are as menial there as at home). There are Mexican government programs to try and help these people whose remittances amount to more than the oil generates. Those remittances are an engine for development and the hinterlands are being improved through the contributions of these economic refugees.

Unfortunately, there is only so much a government can actuaqlly do to alter the course the economy follows. Mexico, despite its oil wealth, is a relatively poor country. There are about 110 million Mexicans (in Mexico). The government has had varying levels of corruption but most of the oil revenues have applied to infrastructural improvements. Mexico has adequate free medical services, clinics, hospitals and whatnot, additionally Mexico has a well-regulated and respected public education system with free texts, cutting edge technology and an efficient, effective administration, the student drop-out rates are low, schools need more money and more are being built, they are all getting computerized too. They've got adequate long distance roads, airports and harbours.

There really just isn't enough money. The oil probably comes to about $65 bill and the Paisanos send more than that, all other economic activity is about $50 bill. The economy is growing as it naturally tandems the gringan growth. Unfortunately the Mexicans never had to pay for their infrastructure, the oil did that. As oil is finite and a horizon can be seen, with a burgeoning population and increased demand, with adjustments for inflation -the government cannot finance the continued improvement of social and infrastructural facilities -absent adequate fiscalization. Mexicans need to be made to pay taxes, to legalize relationships and improve collections -move away from self-help and towards institutionalized practices.

The PAN and Fox are not of the nationalizing sort, they seek to encourage foreign investment (especially from the US) to reduce unemployment and hopefully syphon off some of the immigrants complained about. Foreign investment would likely enable easier capitalization of the substantial investments the Mexican government needs to undertake to improve the energy sector (refineries and power plants). Foreigners won't invest because they don't find acceptable levels of what we call "judicial security" and which includes a lot but particularly lack of transperancy and corruption. These are entrenched features of the government -but neither of the PAN, nor Fox's. As these pressure the legislature (where PRI and PRD prevail in pluralities) they resist change to continue to conceal their perfidious wrongdoings.

The solution to immigration will be bilateral as it involves both. The dynamics of the forces involved are monumental (20% of the population, $70 billion...) so this will involve pondered considerations. The US is not about to run off the end of a pike 20% of its population and that group is much more sympathetic to a more "liberal" approach to this immigration (they are immigrants themselves). Rice can't come down to Mexico and stamp her foot about how poorly they protect the border. Immigration reforms are needed, the matricula consular needs to be of universal application (its got digitized biometric data since 2003), they have to come up with some way to control the hothead ranchers and greater efforts ought to be undertaken to provide a moderately safe passage for the more destitute Paisanos making their way on foot (illuminated covered water stations with chemical toilets would be cheap and quite helpful).

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Mexico doesn't want to get rid of its Paisanos, they are admired, beholden for their courage and romanticised in song for the daring risks they take. At their hometowns, the average Mexican gardener is an important figure. He and a few others on his street or in his small rural community, probably built the City Council, they are all the top income generators in the town, they periodically return with all sorts of appliances and equipment for their families who've naturally applied these to the improvement of the community as well. They build and fund infrastructure (the Mexican government has a new program to double whatever they contribute in public improvements), invest and provide employment, foster local consumption. In Mexico, these Mexicans in economic exile are important and powerful (dumb gringoes think they are as menial there as at home). There are Mexican government programs to try and help these people whose remittances amount to more than the oil generates. Those remittances are an engine for development and the hinterlands are being improved through the contributions of these economic refugees.

These people are valuable to Mexico only as long as they continue to send money (and "appliances and equipment") back home. But even if they stayed in the U.S. and stopped sending money back, they would be a load off the social services of Mexico and onto those of the U.S. The Mexican government does everything it can to make it easy for these people to cross into the U.S., while hypocritically closing it's southern borders to immigrants that want to cross into Mexico from that direction (unless, of course, they are just passing through on their way north).

Of course these beaners are admired and romanticised, they are taking advantage of the stupid Americans. And in spite of what the citizens of this country feel about subsidizing the agricultural sector, our politicians continue to pander to them. Sorry, but it's not our responsibility to be "an engine for development" for the Mexican government.

We aren't stupid, we know the beaners are taking advantage of our corrupt politicians as your corrupt politicians are taking advantage of the illegals. But just as the average Mexican can't do anything about the generations of entrenched corruption in your country, we can't seem to do much about ours.

[rmnunez]

A high rate of immigration (between 4 and 10 thousand per day) and a high birth rate (>2.4%) have combined to make Hispanic Americans the fastest-growing minority group in the US. From 1990 to 2000, Hispanics grew by nearly 60% percent (over 4 times faster than the national total population). Hispanics will be 15% of the US population within 5 years and the largest single group in that country, Mexicans are 56% of them. In most of the Southwest Hispanics are over 40% of the population and the largest single group in all lands south of a line roughly from Seattle to Miami, large concentrations of Hispanics are found in all major US cities.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez A high rate of immigration (between 4 and 10 thousand per day) and a high birth rate (>2.4%) have combined to make Hispanic Americans the fastest-growing minority group in the US. From 1990 to 2000, Hispanics grew by nearly 60% percent (over 4 times faster than the national total population). Hispanics will be 15% of the US population within 5 years and the largest single group in that country, Mexicans are 56% of them. In most of the Southwest Hispanics are over 40% of the population and the largest single group in all lands south of a line roughly from Seattle to Miami, large concentrations of Hispanics are found in all major US cities.

We know all that. Instead of stealing, they will one day be able to just vote themselves whatever it is they want. Future generations of Anglo-Americans are going to wonder just why our politicians simply gave this country away.

[rmnunez]

A report from the Mexican government says the number of Mexicans entering the US illegally increased by 66% from 1990 to 2002 and found the number of illegals coming from Mexico each year now exceeds 1 million. The report says about one-third of those who enter illegally, 390,000 annually, achieve their goal of staying in the US. Mexicans living in the US went from 4.3 million in 1994 to 9.5 million in 2002, according to US estimates. It is estimated Mexicans may have sent back remitances from the US for up to $68 billion last year.

These people are not and should not be called “wetbacks” or “beaners”, they are most often shunned, marginalized and disenfranchised Mexicans making a valuable contribution to both the communities where they find themselves and the one they left behind. The INS has documented the failure of long-term Hispanic residents in acquiring US citizenship. Citizenship is voluntary and may be acquired with residence, but even though most Mexicans in the US comply with the same regulations they usually opt not to acquire citizenship when eligible. They find themselves ignored, shunned, discriminated against, insulted and offended by pinche gringoes often enough it comes natural to reciprocate upon eligibility to join the citizenry.

[Zeebadee]

I see you're not so opposed to the use of pejorative terms as you would like us to believe.

[rmnunez]

These Mexicans of extended US residence, so often confused with illegal aliens are not regarded as foreigners by Mexico, the “Paisanos” are admired for their sacrifices, praised for their efforts and warmly welcomed when they return. Indeed, the Mexicans in the US are even seen as a tool of foreign policy by the Mexican government. Shunned in the US, the Paisanos are sent as good will ambassadors of sorts, the government here encourages them to register at the consulate, keep in touch with family at home and safely keep sending those remittances.

[Zeebadee]

Good plan. Simply ignore anything you don't have an answer for and restate the points you want us to believe. Like your mentor, Bush, it seems that you believe lies repeated often enough will magically be seen as truth. I guess maybe you might be right.

"...safely keep sending those remittances". This is what it's really all about. As long as you can get the Americans to pay Mexico's bills, you won't have to root out the endemic corruption that Mexico is famous for.

[rmnunez]

Zee, you, and your countrymen are missing the boat. A huge community of heretofore disregarded people has developed across the US. These hispanics find themselves alienated in a society that actively slights them in countless ways when its at its most accomodating. In such an environment the hispanics would naturally be unnoticed and underestimated. The gringoes need to realize these people are nearing 20% of the population and will eventually hold sway. Its too late to run them out on a pike, time to start making "accomodations". Official bilingualism is a first and essential step, but a slew of other things will be required. Their economic profile suggests hispanics would be natural Democrats and many are, but they also are much more respectful of authority and tolerant of its abuses, more family-oriented, less egalitarian and it seems to me a bit more humanitarian. They overwhelmingly disfavour interventionism and otherwise are indistinguishable from the average gringo (Democrat or not) as far as values are concerned.

As we speak, Mexicans across the US are receiving entreaties from the Mexican government to come in to get their consular ids, to enquire and compare for the favorable rates available to send their monthly stipends home and a bunch of new financial instruments and credits available there. Gringoes figure its just a bunch of menials and what could their economy be worth, but in fact its about $70 billion a year and that's not chump change anywhere. By trying to keep them "undocumented" and preclude their getting driver's licenses so these Mexicans can only identify themselves at the consulate, gringoes preclude their ever entering the formal economy in the US. Instead they've had to keep their incomes in cash and pay exhorbitant rates to cash a check or send money. Suddenly the government in Mexico has grasped the importance of these people and is rushing in to offer them every possible substitute to what the gringoes have long denied them. They will get their insurance, international drivers licensed can be issued, credit is available and they can even be taxed, Mexico will do this for them since apparently the gringoes cannot.

Mexico has awarded these Paisanos the right to vote in national elections from the US. Additionally, Mexican law does not recognize the loss of citizenship by acquisition of another and this means a number of Mexicans who under US law are citizens of the US, can also vote in Mexican elections -from the comfort of their own homes if by mail or in the warm company of their compatriots if they prefer the consulate. The gringified Mexicans are not a problem, but the vast majority of undocumenteds affected are long term residents in the US with plenty of ties to the comunities where they live there (family, kids, car, homes, businesses...). These people would naturally seek to participate politically forst at the most direct stage, where it affects them most -where they live. However the gringoes bar this, raise obstacles, obfuscate. These people instead will become politically active remotely in Mexico. Mexico will end up intermediating their political needs in the US. This just delays the inevitable when the proportion of hispanic US citizens calls for a Mexican president and cabinet.

[Zeebadee]

You continue to repeat all the good things these people do for Mexico, and all the good things the Mexican government is doing for them. You also continue to ignore the costs to the American taxpayers caused by them. Every country has not only the right, but the responsibility to protect it's borders. Just because our politicians choose to ignore the laws that limit access to this country doesn't mean that every border crossing is a legal one. The “Paisanos” that cross without the proper documentation are, by definition, illegals. I really don't give a shit how much the Mexican government appreciates, honors, and aids these people that breaking our laws. I'm much more concerned with those taxpayers in California that can't afford medical insurance, yet are obligated by our corrupt and gutless politicians to provide free medical care for the illegals.

[rmnunez]

You are under the misapprehension Paisanos are some sort of social burden on the local treasure. In fact most undocumenteds travel without family or any dependants. They typically assume a minimal profile (they would prefer to pass unnoticed). If one of them is injured, he'd have to be unconscious or in very bad shape before taking the chance of being carded at some hospital, the last thing they want to see is a cop in uniform -deportation naturally follows. By the time they have kids who need innoculations or public education (such as it is) they've been in the US for years, steadily saving (they only send back about a third of what they make). They do gain from existing infrastructure (mass transit, roads and things that can be anonymously used) but its hardly something that overwhelms the system. As far as the criminal burden, there must be some (they are practically 15% of the population) but much lower than its incidence among warrantied to be authentic and genuine 100% gringan "African-Americans".