Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

votemickey · Oct 11, 2004, 10:51 am

Folks-
Thanks for the invite to join the forum, see that others have similar views (The debates prove that both Bush and Kerry...) and wanted to let you in on the "Mickey Movement” that started earlier this year.

It's very simple, we don't believe Bush or Kerry have the best interest of the average American at heart and think that both regularly demonstrate how out of touch they are.

With this in mind, we invited liberals and conservatives to debate core issues that should interest ALL AMERICANS...education, immigration and war for example. We intentionally tabled issues that did not have extreme ramifications and could not be easily resolved (such as gay marriage), and we came up with workable stands that practically anybody would recognize as common sense.

To keep it interesting, we built these 'pseudo-planks' into a platform for an imaginary candidate (Mickeymowse) and would like to continue the conversation. With one of the 2 losers about to win the election, we're wondering if it's time to start discussions around 08?

Take a look at the "Mickey Doctrine", it takes about 20 minutes to see if you agree with us, and respond here and shoot us email so that you can be in on the discussion.

Looking forward to your input!

Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/
The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

Scribbler1 · Oct 11, 2004, 07:43 pm

First, welcome to Vonconvo. I hope you have a good experience here (and I think I speak for almost everyone here).

This amounts to the old "vote of no confidence" expression of disapproval with the current government. Ordinarily I could support that idea but not this year. I absolutely DO NOT LIKE the challenger but I feel Bush is too dangerous to give another term and I feel a good conscience vote must be for (urk) Kerry.

Besides, wouldn't all those votes be better used if all went to a third party candidate? My choice is the Libertarian Party, but there are a couple others.

votemickey · Oct 12, 2004, 12:07 pm

Thanks for the reply Scribbler1!

One of the common misconceptions about the VoteMickey campaign is that we will actually vote for Mickey:) Mickey does help us get attention, and when we build planks for him, the "Mice" do get heard. But as you know he’s not actually running so we will end up voting for one of the 2 losers this go round.

“Mickey’s” essay describes what most seem to believe, but no established politician seems to articulate. It’s the simple idea that some issues are more important than others (because they have more impact on the whole) and that when we throw out the political line, conservative and liberal Americans can agree on common sense answers to these core issues.

We don't see parties helping much (including libertarian) because they are not motivated by the needs of their constituencies or they are driven by fringe issues that don’t represent the average American.

Here’s the prologue to Mickey’s Doctrine to give you an idea as to what we’re talking about-

A serious call for a satirical candidate

INTRODUCTION
We live in a world of extremes- the middle is gone. Today you have to be pro-capital punishment or pro-abortion, pro-evolution or pro-creation, pro-labor or pro-business. And guess what? The truth is often found in the boring, un-newsworthy middle.

I don’t believe Rush- But I also don’t believe NPR. They mix 60% truth with their agenda. But somewhere along the path, politicians learned that the more extreme their stand, the better they would fit into one of these news formats. This nation has since embraced extremism, we’ve lost the ability to identify truth, and if we take a stand on any issue we are immediately grouped with other extreme positions.

Let’s say that you are against capital punishment, believe that evolution is possible, but believe that labor costs are driving jobs out of the country. A liberal will accuse you of being a conservative and visa versa and both will tune you out. The same is true if you swapped the values within these same pairs.
…
This is the core of the problem. Truth may be extreme at times, but neither party has a lock on all truth, and by combining positions that they believe will garner the greatest support they manage to alienate everyone except extremists.

Again, very interested in debating this approach for change in 08!
Cheers

VoteMickey
Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/
The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

votemickey · Oct 12, 2004, 12:12 pm

Also, from the forum change, it appears that I violated posting rules but not sure which ones- Can someone help us figure out the best way to have this discussion without messing up the system?

Big thanks!

VoteMickey
Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/
The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

Scribbler1 · Oct 13, 2004, 02:15 am

I'm not sure why it was moved. Maybe not a debate starter?

FWIW though everyone can still access it.

Vee · Oct 13, 2004, 03:33 am

actually many of the threads in butterface I've read don't seem to belong there at all. No doubt some do as they've deteriorated to nothing but name-calling and bickering. I may be new but I think many topics may be victim of an overzealous moderator

Vee · Oct 13, 2004, 03:56 am

having now had a glance at the document you promote I think its rather narrow the way you define the two extremes.

the question was asked which camp do you fall on homosexuality, well I answered recently being converted from a conservative view to a liberal view but then it asked about violence, sex, poverty and what not and I'm still wondering how that relates in context

votemickey · Oct 13, 2004, 11:19 am

Vee-
Thanks for your note! Not sure if we've debated the topic that you've selected (as you can see we bump into just about everything along the way), but let me see if I've got the right one to start with-

The first step we take when analyzing any issue is to determine if it is a 'core' issue or an 'extreme' issue. These are our definitions that we use to determine if we think that this is an issue that average Americans need resolved.

Core issues are as they sound, issues that have a major impact on everybody-For example, education, healthcare, labor vs. management (jobs and the economy). These are the types of issues that must be addressed and surprisingly we have found there are usually middle of the road solutions that liberals and conservatives could agree on except we tend to get diverted by 'extreme' issues and throw the ‘baby out with the bath water”.

Extreme issues are usually very self-focused, very political, and have little impact when it come to living together on this earth, except they are lightning rods that tend to get most of the energy and effort. Examples include sexual preference/homosexuality, far right groups like the NRA or skinheads, or far left groups like PAW or environmental extremists. The bottom line is that there are far more important issues to be resolved.

Is this what you wanted to address? If it is, dig farther into the doctrine and I think you will find that “Mickey” makes a pretty good case that politicians thrive on extreme issues because they divert our attention from the real issues that we could resolve today. After all, if we were al working together and making progress on important issues ranging from war to racism, what would the poor politician do for a living?:)

VoteMickey
Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/
The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

**Sean** · Oct 13, 2004, 01:23 pm

I moved this here because it's more of an ad than anything. I respect your efforts, but it's not really a debate.

votemickey · Oct 13, 2004, 02:29 pm

Thanks for the clarification Sean!

On other forums we've actually debated the specific psedo-planks one thread at a time- But it took a while to establish what we are trying to do since it's a bit different. When we have jumped directly into debate it seemed that everyone went off into their preexisting corners- Not surprising when you look at our charter, getting liberals and conservatives to work together:)

But when we have started with a group that is already thinking out of the box, we seem to get much farther faster-In one debate, I watched a died in the wool conservative defending a fellow Mickyite of the leftist persuasion when someone tried to disrupt the debate, so it seems to be the right direction.

With that goal in mind, it sounds like we should use this forum to see if we can find the folks that have a common interest, see if we can get critical mass, and then post the actual debates out where I started?

Thanks for the input!

VoteMickey
Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/
The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

Vee · Oct 14, 2004, 03:45 am

to be honest I just read the latest entry and I didn't read it too thoroughly because I only wanted the gist of it and being non-US my opinion doesn't really count.

without re-visiting and doing a thorough read, I'll stand by my temporary view

though I do agree homosexuality would be considered an extreme.

votemickey · Oct 14, 2004, 10:20 am

vee-
don't give up on mickey just because you arent in the US! One of the most helpful debaters in the past was in Denmark- He recognised that Mickey is talking about a different way of doing things and it can be applied practically anywhere that open debate is possible.

Here's a question to everyone- How do you get a topic started on this forum? It looks like traffic isn't the problem. Is Mickey just too off topic, or is there a better way to get attenetion?

Thanks all

VoteMickey
Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/
The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

Oct 11, 2004, 07:43 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,832	First, welcome to Vonconvo. I hope you have a good experience here (and I think I speak for almost everyone here). This amounts to the old "vote of no confidence" expression of disapproval with the current government. Ordinarily I could support that idea but not this year. I absolutely DO NOT LIKE the challenger but I feel Bush is too dangerous to give another term and I feel a good conscience vote must be for (urk) Kerry. Besides, wouldn't all those votes be better used if all went to a third party candidate? My choice is the Libertarian Party, but there are a couple others. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Oct 13, 2004, 02:15 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,832	I'm not sure why it was moved. Maybe not a debate starter? FWIW though everyone can still access it. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Oct 13, 2004, 03:33 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Vee Igneous Magma Posts: 370	actually many of the threads in butterface I've read don't seem to belong there at all. No doubt some do as they've deteriorated to nothing but name-calling and bickering. I may be new but I think many topics may be victim of an overzealous moderator Australian Political Discussion Site Aussies: Welcome to the Rudd Regime Yanks: Welcome to Hell Now Purgatory. Others: G'day mate.

Oct 13, 2004, 03:56 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Vee Igneous Magma Posts: 370	having now had a glance at the document you promote I think its rather narrow the way you define the two extremes. the question was asked which camp do you fall on homosexuality, well I answered recently being converted from a conservative view to a liberal view but then it asked about violence, sex, poverty and what not and I'm still wondering how that relates in context Australian Political Discussion Site Aussies: Welcome to the Rudd Regime Yanks: Welcome to Hell Now Purgatory. Others: G'day mate.

Oct 13, 2004, 01:23 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	I moved this here because it's more of an ad than anything. I respect your efforts, but it's not really a debate. So it goes

Oct 11, 2004, 10:51 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
votemickey Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	Folks- Thanks for the invite to join the forum, see that others have similar views (The debates prove that both Bush and Kerry...) and wanted to let you in on the "Mickey Movement” that started earlier this year. It's very simple, we don't believe Bush or Kerry have the best interest of the average American at heart and think that both regularly demonstrate how out of touch they are. With this in mind, we invited liberals and conservatives to debate core issues that should interest ALL AMERICANS...education, immigration and war for example. We intentionally tabled issues that did not have extreme ramifications and could not be easily resolved (such as gay marriage), and we came up with workable stands that practically anybody would recognize as common sense. To keep it interesting, we built these 'pseudo-planks' into a platform for an imaginary candidate (Mickeymowse) and would like to continue the conversation. With one of the 2 losers about to win the election, we're wondering if it's time to start discussions around 08? Take a look at the "Mickey Doctrine", it takes about 20 minutes to see if you agree with us, and respond here and shoot us email so that you can be in on the discussion. Looking forward to your input! Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/ The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

Oct 12, 2004, 12:07 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
votemickey Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	Thanks for the reply Scribbler1! One of the common misconceptions about the VoteMickey campaign is that we will actually vote for Mickey:) Mickey does help us get attention, and when we build planks for him, the "Mice" do get heard. But as you know he’s not actually running so we will end up voting for one of the 2 losers this go round. “Mickey’s” essay describes what most seem to believe, but no established politician seems to articulate. It’s the simple idea that some issues are more important than others (because they have more impact on the whole) and that when we throw out the political line, conservative and liberal Americans can agree on common sense answers to these core issues. We don't see parties helping much (including libertarian) because they are not motivated by the needs of their constituencies or they are driven by fringe issues that don’t represent the average American. Here’s the prologue to Mickey’s Doctrine to give you an idea as to what we’re talking about- A serious call for a satirical candidate INTRODUCTION We live in a world of extremes- the middle is gone. Today you have to be pro-capital punishment or pro-abortion, pro-evolution or pro-creation, pro-labor or pro-business. And guess what? The truth is often found in the boring, un-newsworthy middle. I don’t believe Rush- But I also don’t believe NPR. They mix 60% truth with their agenda. But somewhere along the path, politicians learned that the more extreme their stand, the better they would fit into one of these news formats. This nation has since embraced extremism, we’ve lost the ability to identify truth, and if we take a stand on any issue we are immediately grouped with other extreme positions. Let’s say that you are against capital punishment, believe that evolution is possible, but believe that labor costs are driving jobs out of the country. A liberal will accuse you of being a conservative and visa versa and both will tune you out. The same is true if you swapped the values within these same pairs. … This is the core of the problem. Truth may be extreme at times, but neither party has a lock on all truth, and by combining positions that they believe will garner the greatest support they manage to alienate everyone except extremists. Again, very interested in debating this approach for change in 08! Cheers VoteMickey Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/ The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

Oct 12, 2004, 12:12 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
votemickey Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	Also, from the forum change, it appears that I violated posting rules but not sure which ones- Can someone help us figure out the best way to have this discussion without messing up the system? Big thanks! VoteMickey Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/ The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

Oct 13, 2004, 11:19 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
votemickey Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	Vee- Thanks for your note! Not sure if we've debated the topic that you've selected (as you can see we bump into just about everything along the way), but let me see if I've got the right one to start with- The first step we take when analyzing any issue is to determine if it is a 'core' issue or an 'extreme' issue. These are our definitions that we use to determine if we think that this is an issue that average Americans need resolved. Core issues are as they sound, issues that have a major impact on everybody-For example, education, healthcare, labor vs. management (jobs and the economy). These are the types of issues that must be addressed and surprisingly we have found there are usually middle of the road solutions that liberals and conservatives could agree on except we tend to get diverted by 'extreme' issues and throw the ‘baby out with the bath water”. Extreme issues are usually very self-focused, very political, and have little impact when it come to living together on this earth, except they are lightning rods that tend to get most of the energy and effort. Examples include sexual preference/homosexuality, far right groups like the NRA or skinheads, or far left groups like PAW or environmental extremists. The bottom line is that there are far more important issues to be resolved. Is this what you wanted to address? If it is, dig farther into the doctrine and I think you will find that “Mickey” makes a pretty good case that politicians thrive on extreme issues because they divert our attention from the real issues that we could resolve today. After all, if we were al working together and making progress on important issues ranging from war to racism, what would the poor politician do for a living?:) VoteMickey Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/ The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

Oct 13, 2004, 02:29 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
votemickey Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	Thanks for the clarification Sean! On other forums we've actually debated the specific psedo-planks one thread at a time- But it took a while to establish what we are trying to do since it's a bit different. When we have jumped directly into debate it seemed that everyone went off into their preexisting corners- Not surprising when you look at our charter, getting liberals and conservatives to work together:) But when we have started with a group that is already thinking out of the box, we seem to get much farther faster-In one debate, I watched a died in the wool conservative defending a fellow Mickyite of the leftist persuasion when someone tried to disrupt the debate, so it seems to be the right direction. With that goal in mind, it sounds like we should use this forum to see if we can find the folks that have a common interest, see if we can get critical mass, and then post the actual debates out where I started? Thanks for the input! VoteMickey Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/ The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change

Oct 14, 2004, 03:45 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Vee Igneous Magma Posts: 370	to be honest I just read the latest entry and I didn't read it too thoroughly because I only wanted the gist of it and being non-US my opinion doesn't really count. without re-visiting and doing a thorough read, I'll stand by my temporary view though I do agree homosexuality would be considered an extreme. Australian Political Discussion Site Aussies: Welcome to the Rudd Regime Yanks: Welcome to Hell Now Purgatory. Others: G'day mate.

Oct 14, 2004, 10:20 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
votemickey Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	vee- don't give up on mickey just because you arent in the US! One of the most helpful debaters in the past was in Denmark- He recognised that Mickey is talking about a different way of doing things and it can be applied practically anywhere that open debate is possible. Here's a question to everyone- How do you get a topic started on this forum? It looks like traffic isn't the problem. Is Mickey just too off topic, or is there a better way to get attenetion? Thanks all VoteMickey Mickey Doctrine- http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/ The Anti-Party…Let’s start a conversation about change