Cleaning up Volconvo

[Gorgo]

The real question here is what do we want these forums to be. For me, this is what I want. I want a place that is not a complete slugfest. I don't want a bunch of kids just insulting each other. I want a place where there is some semblance of order, and some ability to learn some things.

Kyran seems to be looking for a way to save the world. I know what he means. I came on the internet in about '95 thinking I was going to meet a lot of people and we were going to get together to save the world. I've met some nice people, and the world just didn't want to be saved. But, in the meantime I learned a couple of things and a couple of other people learned some things, and we had some fun, and maybe some of us made a difference, and maybe we didn't.

Kyran, if you think people like Gr8 are the problem, someone who has actually lived life and looked at it from different angles and is capable of thinking about all sides of those angles and coherently expressing those thoughts, you are dead wrong.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Kyran,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kyran,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Now the forum is shit.[/b]

That is your opinion and not a fact. Remember, opinions are assholes; Keep it out of our face.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kyran,
I can beat all of you by myself, but that doesn't put me on LB's level. I can't grow anymore because most of you guys are no competition.[/quote]Again with the ego and the insults. A real messiah would know that pride goes before a fall. (I am sure this is prolly just an innocent challenge, alpha-male chest thumping, but it could be power tripping to show your new colors as moderator)

[RickSp]

So I guess this is what "heated debate" means to some. I can't help but find these "rules" to be condescending and more than a bit pompous themselves. I would hope that the board would be moderated by adults who simply use their better judgement. I'm not convinced that "redemption" or signed oaths or silliness along these lines is absolutely necessary.

Then again, it isn't my board.

(edited to correct my horrific spelling)

[rcne]

So, Sean I guess the question arises -

"How long will you let this charade go on"

If the virtual persona of Kyran is not someone's alter EGO, and is actually serious in this twisted endeavor of domination, then this board is no longer an open debate society.

Now is it?

Other duties call, I may be back in a few days, once your soap opera is over.

[Sean]

Kyran, before I offer my opinion, I just want to make you aware of my desire to edit your topic title to "How I would clean up Volconvo", but how I also held back this desire because it's a part of the message you wanted to convey.

...

I wanted to have Kyran explain exactly what he wanted to do in public, so I could see if this was something that the forum wanted/needed. You see, with school, work, and life in general, I cannot read all of the posts (my view of the forum is far different than the average user). So, I wanted to see if people were concerned, like Kyran, about the level of debate/bias. The general consensus doesn't seem to be "this forum is shit", so I have to rely on statistics.

This forum is for the users. If you're all flamers, and you all think the forum is going good, then so be it I check on topics very randomly, and in general, I usually see the bad ones (because I respond to reported posts). I think that while the quality of some debates could be higher, and the perspectives could be more diverse, the environment is serving it's ultimate purpose-DEBATE

Equilibrium in a forum is something that I nor any online rule book can control. I can try to pander to groups that are lacking in these forums, but other than that I really can't control the flow of bias. All I can do is ask for common sense, and the following of my etiquette. I thought the etiquette made it pretty clear what was expected.

This is a political forum. Tempers will be livid at times, but you should know what is expected:

• don't act like the expert if you're not one (opinion is not fact)
• don't insult members
• don't just push your view and move on...LISTEN

Kyran, I told you that I would give you my opinion, and I think I just did :) I find your rules highly impractical, and unrealistic in a political debate environment.

Kryan, I admire your effort, concern, and will to make things better here. Do it with the rules we have, and the common sense we should all have If people are making it hard to debate just talk to them via email/pm, or take it public-depending on the situation. In general, keep it private. We don't want to distract from discussions.

Feel free to ask me questions guys. I'll participate now that you've debated a bit.

[Kyran]

Okay Sean, now I'll give you my opinion.

It doesn't matter what my idea of rules are since I suggested a new section. Are you going to let us have this or not? I don't see anything unreasonable about this request.

Sean, don't forget you have changed my topic titles before. Remember the minimum wage thread? You never asked me whether that was ok. So were you wrong then or are you wrong now...or do these rules only apply to me?

Btw, don't ask me to nanny because it's not in me. Especially since you have the gall to rub in my face this double-standard crap about topic titles. No. If you're going to enforce rules, enforce them against everyone.

Originally posted by Sean, If you're all flamers, and you all think the forum is going good, then so be it

And if you think the forum is good, then make a section for those of us who want something different. Otherwise, I am left with the impression that you only want flaming to go on here. Is that what you truly want? Do you want to run off anyone interested in civil discussion? Hey, if you want us gone we'll leave. No problems there.

But I'm not taking this crap lying down, not even from you Sean. So don't hand me any, because I will throw it right back at you. I never complained about the rules and I don't deserve this.

[bishop]

I can beat all of you by myself, but that doesn't put me on LB's level. I can't grow anymore because most of you guys are no competition. Honestly, I think you guys have what it takes to improve, but will you? I don't hate you, but when you flame anyone who tries to make this forum a better place it pisses me off to no end.

pardon my language, but who crowned you king shit?

you make it seem as if the people here are a bunch of uneducated heathens, and you're the infallible intellectual. here's a recent debate that you must've overlooked:

http://www.volconvo.com/forums/index.php?s...?showtopic=3260

i know i've never had any encounters with you in the past, but this melodrama is unacceptable to a board member who is interested in debate, and who actively participates in debate.

you clearly have beef with the system:

The world is in WW3, the government is out of control, a man who can't eat a pretzel is the most qualified candidate for president in this country, the average American doesn't know the Constitution from a hole in the ground, the system has failed, and jackasses in our country are trying to form world government.

so, how about you quit the crybaby routine and spark up some debate on issues that you apparently care about?

[Sean]

Originally posted by Kyran, Okay Sean, now I'll give you my opinion. It doesn't matter what my idea of rules are since I suggested a new section. Are you going to let us have this or not? I don't see anything unreasonable about this request.

Who's us? Who actually wants this?

Sean, don't forget you have changed my topic titles before. Remember the minimum wage thread? You never asked me whether that was ok. So were you wrong then or are you wrong now...or do these rules only apply to me?

What did I change it to? I Made it a featured topic. I wasn't doing it because I didn't want you to present your opinion the way you did.

Btw, don't ask me to nanny because it's not in me. Especially since you have the gall to rub in my face this double-standard crap about topic titles. No. If you're going to enforce rules, enforce them against everyone.

I have the gall? Excuse me Kyran, but you edited people's topics, and I've been telling you not to. You've been editing them to make them more objective, and that's just not what this place is. No place with debate is going to be that strict on being objective. If it was extremely offensive then we might have something to edit, but that's rare.

And if you think the forum is good, then make a section for those of us who want something different. Otherwise, I am left with the impression that you only want flaming to go on here. Is that what you truly want? Do you want to run off anyone interested in civil discussion? Hey, if you want us gone we'll leave. No problems there.

Are you kidding? I was joking. This is not a forum that is all flaming, so stop making this such a big deal. I don't see how anyone could be left with an impression that I want flaming to go on here.

Who's we? Where is there not civil discussion? Do you want the forum to be a bunch of robots that are programmed to avoid being partisan? We took this to the public, and a bunch of the users responded, and did not agree with you at all about there being such a problem.

You haven't made your case in my opinion.

But I'm not taking this crap lying down, not even from you Sean. So don't hand me any, because I will throw it right back at you. I never complained about the rules and I don't deserve this.

What the hell are you talking about? I criticized your actions, and voiced my opinion. If you are going to react like this then please don't ask for my opinion.
I cannot believe this is all coming from me inviting you to help do some light moderation work. You said you would be tough, but this is obsessive. The rules we have in place work with proper enforcement. You will stifle political debate if you take it further, and that's why you are getting no agreement from anyone.

Please stop the drama. It's a forum. If you want more topics that allow for both sides to participate, then help me attract various groups of people. That's the hard work.

[Scribbler1]

Kyran,
I've pretty much kept my mouth shut through much of this thread, but I have a question to ask.

Who the hell do you think you are?

I know what you're NOT, and that is the only moderator on this forum, but you act like you are. Funny thing though, in all your strange rants I've never seen the words US or WE when referring to the moderatorS. Also, although you act as though you are, you are not the owner of this forum. There's some guy named Sean who apparently thinks HE is! You are making this whole flap look like a really REALLY bad TV show where the comical bad guy wants to take over the company. You just CAN'T be for real! However, I think it should be obvious even to you that a lot of other people (as well as the other mods) like this forum just fine. It is YOU, friend who are in the minority and in case you forgot, Volconvo is a PRIVATELY OWNED forum. Fortunately, not by you.

But all is not lost, oh martyred one. You can get your own URL for $10 or less a year and a webhost for $5 a month (or even free in case your parishoners can't cough up the dough). With some pretty good FREE forum software (I recommend YaBB) you too can own your own forum and invite all the people who consistently agree with you, and be the one true boss instead of a misunderstood soul on this shitty forum.

Originally posted by Kyran, And if you think the forum is good, then make a section for those of us who want something different.

Make that, those who only agree with you. Yeah, that's different.

But I'm not taking this crap lying down, not even from you Sean. So don't hand me any, because I will throw it right back at you. I never complained about the rules and I don't deserve this.

You never complained about much of anything, if memory serves. That is, until you began to take it upon yourself to enforce your own "rules" of debate. Then you whined like a child and lapsed into your heroic, yet beaten messiah persona.

Read your above quote, Kyran. Would you agree that you sound like a little punk?
Kindly explain why you are still HERE, in this shitty forum where you just cant get an even break? How unfortunate for you to be forced against your will to put up with us lesser beings. This seems like way too much work for you to keep up the good fight. You must be tired.

Regards,
Scribbler1

P.S. Yes I know this was a somewhat flaming post, but you seem to bring that out in me :) I may be thrown out or suspended or something, but hey, I can take my own lumps.

[Scribbler1]

I just got finished reading RCNE's post and now it has disappeared!

Excuse me...
(looking out window)
I'm back. Nope...no black helicopters or mushroom clouds. Hmmm.

[Pooeypants]

I think it's funny how Kyran puts himself up so highly, he's about as Elite as somebody could possibly prop one self to be. Remember his previous avatar title was "Destroyer of Arguments", it's a testimony to the size of his ego.

[rcne]

Originally posted by Scribbler1, I just got finished reading RCNE's post and now it has disappeared!  Excuse me... (looking out window) I'm back.  Nope...no black helicopters or mushroom clouds.  Hmmm.

You're right where did I go????

Darn - it was a good one too. Is this similar to Orwell's 'he who controls the past controls the future'?

It may be time to put this tangent into the famous 'ButterFace'. I'd vote for it being one of the weirdest threads of the year.



edit - Just a quick thought - who's Flaming now. Remember moderations in all things. This place isn't real, we are all figments of your imagination.

[Scribbler1]

Personally, I thought from the beginning this would turn out to be butterface material, owing to the nature of the topic and how upset some of the members were. But for that very same reason, as it does involve the workings of Volconvo I'll leave it to Sean to decide if he wants to butterface or completely remove it (I would vote for removal, as it has served its purpose and I don't think there's any point in it remaining). I think this thread has pretty much run its course anyway. It appears just about anyone who wanted to say anything has done so and I think it will die here. I know I'm done with it.

I just hope something positive comes out of it. My crystal ball is in the shop so I can't say what, though.

[Sean]

Sorry, I deleted that topic rcne because it bumped this one when I was trying to get people to read the "downtime sucks" thread (whichever topic is the most current appears above the forums when I enable announcements).

Wasn't really a relevant post anyway lol.

[m5lange1]

OK here are my 2 pennies...

Kyran I have asserted my intentions to return Volconvo back to a place of civil intellectual discussion and learning.

I joined this site because it was called "heated debate" not "civil intellectual discussion".
That sounds high and mighty and dull as hell.

M5

[rcne]

Originally posted by Sean, Sorry, I deleted that topic rcne because it bumped this one when I was trying to get people to read the "downtime sucks" thread (whichever topic is the most current appears above the forums when I enable announcements). Wasn't really a relevant post anyway lol.

Relevance is in the eye of the beholder. Since I don't really remember it in totality it must have been irrelevant.

I get your point.

[kharmajunkie]

I don't know some of the terms Kyran is using like "flamer" (I'm just a caveman) but I assume that it's related to trolling and spamming and
if that's your main complaint Kyran (too many flamers) then you need to look at other boards and see what havoc is caused before judging this one so harshly. As far as you being the lone beacon of logic on
Volconvo, you're way too full of yourself my friend. You're an intelligent guy and I find your views challenging and thought provoking, for the most part. Your problem Kyran is that other people are supposed to say those things about you; when you tell us how logical and wise you are, you sound like a pompous jerk.

[Nono]

Originally posted by rcne We are all figments of your imagination.

This also occurred to me in connection with the suggestion that 'certain members' were actually Sean wearing a false beard, as it were.
Maybe we're all figments of his imagination.

Scribbler's right. This thread done blowed itself out. That said, we need a forum of some sort to keep constructive discussion going, if only sporadically and ad hoc, about how best to maintain the quality of Volconvo.

[rcne]

ButterFace is a badge of honor, and this thread made it quickly.

Free Form dialog, can be most entertaining. Maybe not relevant nor up a to a 'quality' (very speculative term there) that you wish to see.

But establishing a guideline or setting a bar on what's acceptable or not will only reduce participation here.

Some members will excel, others members will have views poorly presented. But after a time even these members quality will increase.

Its the content of the post, not the context. I'm not a master debater - but I'll learn, or at least present my views more clearly.

[Kyran]

Okay, here's my response. Read it and weep because the Truth stands alone.

Originally posted by bishop,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bishop,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>pardon my language, but who crowned you king shit? you make it seem as if the people here are a bunch of uneducated heathens, and you're the infallible intellectual.[/b]

I can sit here, dare someone to prove me wrong with facts on any number of issues, and they will do not do it. Is it arrogant of me to point that out? No. Am I saying I'm the best of the best? No.

I make it seem as if you guys are uneducated? OMG no...it's obvious to everyone who reads the politics section that this forum is filled with intellectuals!

Originally posted by bishop,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bishop,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>so, how about you quit the crybaby routine and spark up some debate on issues that you apparently care about?[/b]

I'm not the one who needs to be told not to cry to the admin every time shit doesn't go my way. See, this whole shitdeal started when a bunch of losers started whining about me changing their topic titles to Objective standards and someone was determined to have the words "Bush to UN: We are nice marauders" sitting in everyone's face. These people whined so much that the admin quickly decided to stop me.

Apparently it is okay to offend non-leftists, but it isn't okay to offend leftists with topic titles or change the offensive titles of leftists.

I am only doing what has been done to me. So if you guys think I'm an asshole for changing topic titles, then you can thank Sean for teaching me to do it. But forget the idea that I'm being partisan, because I would rather enforce the rules equally against everyone. The problem is the whiners want the rules to only apply to those who disagree with them.

Originally posted by Sean, Who's us? Who actually wants this (separate forum) ?

Several people would like it. We could probably attract all the old members who left and more.

Originally posted by Sean, What did I change it to? I Made it a featured topic. I wasn't doing it because I didn't want you to present your opinion the way you did.

The topic was "Why Minimum Wage sucks" and was changed to "Why Minimum Wage?" I never complained about this, and I still don't think it was a bad idea to change the title. I never made any assertions one way or the other suggesting why you did what you did. I just went along with the flow and made sure all my topic titles from that point on were unbiased so that they wouldn't be edited.

Originally posted by Sean, I have the gall? Excuse me Kyran, but you edited people's topics, and I've been telling you not to. You've been editing them to make them more objective, and that's just not what this place is. No place with debate is going to be that strict on being objective. If it was extremely offensive then we might have something to edit, but that's rare.

Oh no you don't. You told me to stop editing people's titles without even bothering to ask me my side of the story, after you or some moderator had already done it to me in the first place. I complied, so don't even try to make it out as if I didn't. I tried to explain but you had already made your decision.

It's like I went and polished a man's boots that he had scuffed...only to be told that cleaning is inherently wrong. You think it's easy to Unbias a topic? No. It is work.

Notice I actually changed topics that I thought had some potential. Oh wait, you're not done yelling at me for doing the same exact thing you've done. I'm sorry, please continue. Next time you do something to me and then don't want me to do it to others, will you at least let me know explicitly? That way I know which rules only to enforce against certain people.

Originally posted by Sean, Are you kidding? I was joking. This is not a forum that is all flaming, so stop making this such a big deal. I don't see how anyone could be left with an impression that I want flaming to go on here.

That's your opinion, not mine and not the only opinion in existence. The forum is not filled with flamers by "chance." There is cause and effect. When you don't enforce rules, and when you change the rules to appease everyone who complains, you will eventually have nothing but whiners. How often do you hear me complaining? Like...almost never. But when I complain, I don't ask you to change the rules, I don't ask you to stop some moderator that I have angst for, and I don't ask you to side with me or else I'm gonna leave.

But I'm the asshole, right guys? Whatever!

Originally posted by Sean, Who's we? Where is there not civil discussion? Do you want the forum to be a bunch of robots that are programmed to avoid being partisan? We took this to the public, and a bunch of the users responded, and did not agree with you at all about there being such a problem.

Oh yeah? Do ya think they could prove there isn't a problem if I define it as being emotionally-charged negative disruption of topics? If you do, do you think that I could prove them wrong?

Hmm...remote-controlled Nono...ooo baby. I push a button and he says "Bush lied!" I just have one question. Why would I need a button to do that?

Seriously, no one believes I want to control the forum. I've stopped moderating, I've asked you to give us a separate forum and even promised to leave everyone else alone; just so there would be some peace. Rather than that, there is still flaming going on in this very thread and you still think I'm the badguy here.

We took this public, the flamers immediately began flaming, and you say that "most people" here disagree with me about the problem. Well, obviously there is a reason that they disagree with me about why the forum has gone to hell in a handbasket! Let me walk you through this one step at a time.

1. Forum launches, a mix of posters flow in.
2. Nice debaters get flamed.
3. Flaming goes unpunished.
4. Nice debaters leave.
5. Kyran gets moderator job, begins cleaning up flame wars.
6. Kyran unbiases thread titles, exactly as was done to him.
7. Flamers are offended by this and retaliate.

Now, let's do a head-count of who posted in this thread to see exactly how many opinions were checked and if they think there is a problem with flaming here. Those who I think have attitude problems, whether a little or a lot, will be italicized or bolded.

1. Me - yes
2. Sean - no
3. Gorgo - no
4. Bishop - no, but he admits things are heated
5. rcne - no, but he admits things are heated
6. tusaki - ?
7. PatrickHenry - no
8. Friedrich - yes and no
9. Pooeypants - ?
10. Gr8fuldaniel - ?
11. harumscarum - no
12. Nono - no
13. Scribbler1 - "no comment"
14. Section 8 - yes
15. Seeker of Sins - no
16. Mr Vicchio - yes
17. Vee - ?
18. RickSp - no
19. m5lange1 - ?
20. Kharmajunkie - ?

I'm not gonna bother to give a full explanation for everyone.

Btw, Pooey, I'm not arrogant. I'm confident. Everyone whose names I bolded is arrogant. I can also kick all your asses at playing guitar. Just because I say I am better than you at something doesn't mean I have a superiority complex. It just means you suck right now; so look for ways to improve. If you people weren't so arrogant, you'd admit I'm better and do what I do to be as good as me if not greater.

In conclusion, these people's opinions don't matter because I can prove the forum has a flaming problem with this friggin thread. Gorgo is posting definitions of words, to be a smartass, and saying you and I are the same person. Most of the others have taken pop shots at me, calling me arrogant and whatever.

Now, back to the MUCK.

<!--QuoteBegin-Sean,@
What the hell are you talking about? I criticized your actions, and voiced my opinion. If you are going to react like this then please don't ask for my opinion.[/quote]

I was talking about being treated differently than others. I don't think you're doing it intentionally, but I do think you're doing it. I sat here and defended you changing my MW thread title and yet you still insist there is something inherently wrong with me doing that to others.

<!--QuoteBegin-Sean,
I cannot believe this is all coming from me inviting you to help do some light moderation work. You said you would be tough, but this is obsessive. The rules we have in place work with proper enforcement. You will stifle political debate if you take it further, and that's why you are getting no agreement from anyone.[/quote]

Obsessive? Nice insult. I did what I thought you wanted me to do. I warned you two times that I would be very tough and all I did was change topic titles and remove insults. OH THE HUMANITY! Yeah, it's the end of the world isn't it? Whatever. Calm down, people.

I agree that the rules work with proper enforcement; so stop getting pissed off at me for enforcing your rules. I didn't invent any of this, dude. And I will forever hold it against you until you apologize: you did it to me and I did it to everyone. No double-standards or favortism.

Tell ya what Sean. I've got a Plan C. Let us have the butterface section. I will moderate it and leave every other section alone, so I don't bother anyone.

Better yet...since you have chosen to act as if the opinions of people I am representing is not important enough to listen to, I'll just take over Butterface without your consent. I hope that you don't care, that you won't care, that you'll find it funny, and that you will leave us alone in peace like we want...and eventually realize how serious I am about having rules enforced.

I think you'll wake up one way or the other and see that I just want to clean things up fairly, that I do want to co-exist with people of different beliefs, but that I do not want to co-exist under different rules.

My conscience says Green Light. Die, flamers!