One of Obama's own admits to "killing Grandma"

[soothsayer]

Let's not enter into lunatic right-wing sensationalism and fear-mongering by venturing to speculate about the asphyxiation death of Obama's actual grandma the night of his curious solo visit to her bedside in Hawaii (she being among the few capable of attesting to his actual birthplace/citizenship)...

but instead, let us focus our debate upon real issues---that of socialized medicine's inevitable result in lower care, higher costs, greater mismanagement and fraud, inefficiencies, waste and abuse and injustice by resulting in a "two-tiered system" that the "rich" will be able to access the best doctors while the "common" citizen subject to the "system' will have to suffer with...
not by listening to the words of some senationalizing "entertainment" faux news commentator, but instead, by debating comments made by Clinton administration Labor Secretary, socialist blogger and Berkeley professor Robert Reich:

In an [COLOR=#0000ff]audio recording[/COLOR] from a September 2007 speech to an audience at the UC Berkeley, Reich reveals what he believes an intellectually honest "liberal" presidential candidate would have to say about health care: The "truth" about health care as Reich sees it is quite shocking and as you can hear on the recording, he is definitely not kidding. Here is a transcript of the brutal truth about health care as Robert Reich sees it: I'll actually give you a speech made up entirely, almost on the spur of the moment, of what a candidate for president would say if that candidate did not care about becoming president. In other words, this is what the truth is and a candidate will never say, but what a candidate should say if we were in the kind of democracy where citizens were honored in terms of their practice of citizenship and if they were educated in terms of what the issues were and if they could separate myth from reality in terms of what candidates would tell them: "Thank you so much for coming this afternoon. I'm so glad to see you and I would like to be president. Let me tell you a few things on health care. Look, we have the only health care system in the world that is designed to avoid sick people. And that's true and what I'm going to do is that I am going try to reorganize it to be more amenable to treating sick people but that means you, particularly you young people, particularly you young healthy people...you're going to have to pay more. "Thank you. And by the way, we're going to have to, if you're very old, we're not going to give you all that technology and all those drugs for the last couple of years of your life to keep you maybe going for another couple of months. It's too expensive...so we're going to let you die." ...more from Robert Reich and his uncomfortably brutal honesty about health care: "Also I'm going to use the bargaining leverage of the federal government in terms of Medicare, Medicaid---we already have a lot of bargaining leverage---to force drug companies and insurance companies and medical suppliers to reduce their costs. What that means, less innovation and that means less new products and less new drugs on the market which means you are probably not going to live much longer than your parents. Thank you."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITY70TOBuG4

[Nono]

Quote by: sooth Let's not enter into lunatic right-wing sensationalism and fear-mongering by venturing to speculate about the asphyxiation death of Obama's actual grandma the night of his curious solo visit to her bedside in Hawaii (she being among the few capable of attesting to his actual birthplace/citizenship)...

OK, let's not, though there is definitely a strong whiff of lunatic right-wing sensationalism and fear-mongering around this thread.

But c'mon, sooth, Obama didn't just strangle his grandma. Surely he at least raped her first.

[soothsayer]

Let's stick to the topic:

Reich's admission of the duplicity of the democrats' socialized medicine campaign and the inevitable horrors it promises.

Oh, and speaking of "killing Grandmas" here's one for the NHS fans:

Ball, 42, from Robertsbridge, East Sussex, said: “My mother was going to be left to starve and dehydrate to death. It really is a subterfuge for legalised euthanasia of the elderly on the NHS. ”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle6869646.ece

[RickSp]

LOL. Obama strangled his grandma? This incoheremt rambling is completely out of control.

[Georgia]

Quote by: soothsayer Let's stick to the topic: Daughter saves mother, 80, left by doctors to starve - Times Online

Well I doubt BHO is strangling grandma but these things caught my attention from the link above: (Snipped)

AN 80-year-old grandmother who doctors identified as terminally ill and left to starve to death has recovered after her outraged daughter intervened. (Medics) withdrew her antibiotics and denied her artificial feeding. The former school matron had been placed on a controversial care plan intended to ease the last days of dying patients. She had to fight hospital staff for weeks before her mother was taken off the plan and given artificial feeding. “My mother was going to be left to starve and dehydrate to death. It really is a subterfuge for legalised euthanasia of the elderly on the NHS. ” A junior doctor told her she was going to be placed on the plan to “make her more comfortable” in her last days. A spokesman for East Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust, said: “Patients’ needs are assessed before they are placed on the [plan]. Daily reviews are undertaken by clinicians whenever possible.”

First off, I find it outrageous that a person terminally ill or not is purposely left to slowly starve to death - and claims to "Ease the last days of dying patients" ? I hear starvation and dehydration is a terrible and painful way to die.

Second, to fight hospital staff not to mistreat a loved one that way?

Third, daily reviews are undertaken whenever possible? (As someone is slowly starved to death?)

Fourth, they don't see anything wrong with that picture?

Fifth, is their heathcare system so broken that starving someone to death is worth more than having them comfortably medicated until a natural death a few days later? I didn't read the statement why this is neccessary but I assume it's an economic decision.

That was just a horrible read and I was certain it was a biased political stunt. Unfortunately it looks legit to me. I think the biggest horror is it's apparent widespread use and the seemingly flippant and nonchalant attitude.

Questions:
I wasn't around or aware of the arguments when this system was implemented. I wonder:

1) Was it sold to the public as an option to private insurance, or ban it altogether?
2) If it was set up as competition, are there still any private options?
3) If there are still private insurance, did the cost of of it skyrocket after the public option? (Did NHS cause a dramatic increase in private premium cost)
4) Was it sold to the public as a way to cut healthcare cost?
5) Was it deemed neccessary to provide care to everyone?
6) Was it presented as "Different" or "Better" than other countries national healthcare plans?
7) Was opposition to this system simply scoffed and discarded or opposing viewpoints considered?

I really don't have the answer to those questions but they obviously parallel much of today's NHC debate.

[Night]

Quote by: Nono OK, let's not, though there is definitely a strong whiff of lunatic right-wing sensationalism and fear-mongering around this thread. But c'mon, sooth, Obama didn't just strangle his grandma. Surely he at least raped her first.

As a black man I doubt he could help himself around a white woman.

Surely, it couldn't have been that he just wanted to spend personal time with his dying grandmother...!

[soothsayer]

Where's the moderation in this thread?

Not one poster has addressed the original post:

That Labor Secretary Robert Reich, Democrat Party spokesperson, and Berkeley professor said in a speech to Democrats regarding Socialized Medicine that:

"If we were going to be honest about U.S. govt-run healthcare we'd have to admit to :

Impoverishing levels of taxation on current and future generations

Rationing of healthcare

Reduction in incentive for innovation in healthcare

Such severe rationing of care to the elderly that it amounts to euthanasia
exact quote: "We're going to let you die"

Evidence of it in practice in the UK.


"In other words, this is what the truth is and what a candidate will never say, but what a candidate should say if we were in the kind of democracy where citizens were honored in terms of their practice of citizenship and if they were educated in terms of what the issues were and if they could separate myth from reality in terms of what candidates would tell them."

Evidently, partisan statists cannot.

[Praxius]

Quote by: soothsayer Let's not enter into lunatic right-wing sensationalism and fear-mongering by venturing to speculate about the asphyxiation death of Obama's actual grandma the night of his curious solo visit to her bedside in Hawaii (she being among the few capable of attesting to his actual birthplace/citizenship)...

No wait, since your first paragraph in this topic was to toss this little nugget out there and avoid it being challenged by saying we shouldn't talk about it.... I think you voided that by starting to talk about it.

Are you seriously going to tell me Obama personally strangled his own grandmother to further his political career, to dodge challenges to his citizenship and to pave forward the Health Care Reform?

but instead, let us focus our debate upon real issues---that of socialized medicine's inevitable result in lower care, higher costs, greater mismanagement and fraud, inefficiencies, waste and abuse and injustice by resulting in a "two-tiered system" that the "rich" will be able to access the best doctors while the "common" citizen subject to the "system' will have to suffer with... not by listening to the words of some senationalizing "entertainment" faux news commentator, but instead, by debating comments made by Clinton administration Labor Secretary, socialist blogger and Berkeley professor Robert Reich:

And people complain about my long-winded sentences?

I'll actually give you a speech made up entirely, almost on the spur of the moment, of what a candidate for president would say if that candidate did not care about becoming president......

Who the hell is this guy to dictate what a presidential candidate "Would" say? Was he one? Did he become President before?

No?

Ok then.....

And that's true and what I'm going to do is that I am going try to reorganize it to be more amenable to treating sick people but that means you, particularly you young people, particularly you young healthy people...you're going to have to pay more.

Baseless and biased crap once again.

They're paying more? Compared to what? How much their parents are currently paying directly out of their pockets of what's left after already paying private insurance companies for a coverage they never get??

..... if you're very old, we're not going to give you all that technology and all those drugs for the last couple of years of your life to keep you maybe going for another couple of months. It's too expensive...so we're going to let you die.".....

Now while I attempt to not take this personally based on my own nation's health care system I have lived with all my life, and the great treatments my grand parents have continually received over the years...... how about you show me one factual evidence of this fearmongering bullsh*t to actually be true?

What that means, less innovation and that means less new products and less new drugs on the market which means you are probably not going to live much longer than your parents. Thank you."

Well thanks again Sooth for wasting my friggin time with this biased bullsh*t you consider to be true/fact.

^ This is what you think a presidential candidate should have said?

Based on what?

I see no fact, no logical sources, no direct examples and based on my country's health care system alone (not including all of the other UHC systems in the world that have worked perfectly fine for so long) ~ Proves this guy is full of sh*t.

And I'd treat some of this with a tad bit of respect if there was anything worthwhile to debate, there was any factual studies, anything to refute..... frig.... something besides typical republican fearmongering crap I seem to keep stumbling into when I enter your threads.

Now explain to me how any of this relates to Obama killing his grandmother.

Holy cripes almighty.

[Praxius]

Quote by: soothsayer Where's the moderation in this thread?

I don't know, cuz they should be removing this continual crap you keep posting, which always has to do with anti-Obama crap (for whatever reason) with only YouTube videos and conspiracy web site links for sources and nothing factual to back any of your claims/arguments up with.

Not one poster has addressed the original post: That Labor Secretary Robert Reich, Democrat Party spokesperson, and Berkeley professor said in a speech to Democrats regarding Socialized Medicine that: "If we were going to be honest about U.S. govt-run healthcare we'd have to admit to : Impoverishing levels of taxation on current and future generations Rationing of healthcare Reduction in incentive for innovation in healthcare

Prove any of this occurs generally in any UHC system first, otherwise you're asking people to chase your phantom ghost claims for nothing.

Such severe rationing of care to the elderly that it amounts to euthanasia exact quote: "We're going to let you die" Evidence of it in practice in the UK.

Isolated incident and is not any type of example of typical UHC systems.... the doctors responsible should be held accountable for their actions.

But she lived..... so tell me what happens to the same patient in a US hospital who is suddenly found out that they can't pay for the medical attention they're sorta getting?

Oh yeah, they're wheeled out into the street or in a cab to be dropped off in some alley to die.

So much better.

In that ONE situation you brought up, that is and always should be unacceptable and those responsible should be held responsible and face heafty jail time.

Shall I start to dig up all the nightmare examples in the US health system to start tallying up which one is worse? I'll be here quite a while.

"In other words, this is what the truth is and what a candidate will never say, but what a candidate should say if we were in the kind of democracy where citizens were honored in terms of their practice of citizenship and if they were educated in terms of what the issues were and if they could separate myth from reality in terms of what candidates would tell them." Evidently, partisan statists cannot.

Right..... moving on.

This is worse then trying to debate with a christian fundamentalist.

Here's the real reality of the situation:

In any system out there, no matter what country, you're going to have arse pickers who don't have their professional priorities screwed on right and will pull stupid crap like this.

Out of millions of medical cases each year in a UHC system in Canada alone, you might have one or two cases of doctors or hospitals doing very stupid things they're not supposed to be doing (such as the above case)

Those cases are quickly dealt with and those responsible are held accountable for their actions, further regulations and oversight are enforced to prevent it from happening again..... which is why these sort of things rarely occur overall.

Now look at the US system in comparison...... I certainly don't see you bringing up any examples yourself, as if your own system is oh-so perfect.

Yet it seems like such a big problem in the US that a movie was made about just how horrible your system really is.

And if that's not good enough, how about this:

Nightmares of American Medical Care
Nightmares of American Medical Care - Indymedia-Québec (CMAQ)

Rather then constantly going on the fearmongering attack of everybody else's systems and demanding they all defend their systems.... how about for once you actually defend your own current system and explain to all of us exactly how your current system is so damn better?

[soothsayer]

It was the satire intended by this post that inspired the way the thread was introduced.

Poe Slaw pokes fun at what is publicly used by the govt-run media to lampoon those who oppose socialized medicine

More "Czars" We Can Believe In !

Robert Reich is a top Democrat. In a rare, accidental moment of candor, he explains (to democrats) what they would have to say if they were willing to be honest.

You really are grasping at straws to try to discount what he said. You are really parsing words by saying

Who the hell is this guy to dictate what a presidential candidate "Would" say?

IF He were being honest!


Oh, great link to a blog, btw.

The only problem with the US healthcare system is govt involvement in it!

[Maryjane]

Where's the moderation in this thread? Not one poster has addressed the original post:

I'd love to take this thread seriously...perhaps you might want to change the thread title?

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: soothsayer Let's not enter into lunatic right-wing sensationalism and fear-mongering by venturing to speculate about the asphyxiation death of Obama's actual grandma the night of his curious solo visit to her bedside in Hawaii (she being among the few capable of attesting to his actual birthplace/citizenship)...

LOLOLOLOL!!!

Oh yes, by all means, let's not. LOL! Oops, darn, too late.

.

[Thanatos]

Hmmph.

If you can save three people with the resources needed to keep a terminally ill patient alive for their last day then what's the problem?

A lot of people have a rather suburban concept of values. We're soft. Stupid too. People think it's God telling them to be nice; look folks if you've ever read the Bible God's perfectly capable of being an asshole when he needs to be.

What you're worried about is it being your grandma. What if she's one of the three people who can't get treatment at all because three nurses are sweating over one person?

Suppose you're a doctor or an EMT. Would you really rather have three grieving families looking at you like you did something wrong instead of one?

[soothsayer]

unsubstantiated? yes.
anecdotal? sure.
ample? as well.

How many of you have spent time in countries with government healthcare? - Yahoo! Answers

How about a more credible set of views by one of america's leading scholars (who also happens to be black---like it should make a difference)

Thomas Sowell : Words Versus Realities - Townhall.com

Thomas Sowell : Personal Finance : Utopia Versus Freedom - Townhall.com

Thomas Sowell : No "Health Care"? - Townhall.com

[WindWip]

Quote by: soothsayer Let's stick to the topic:

Yes, lets.

Ur topic is "One of Obama's own admits to killing Grandma", however you instantly dismiss it as 'lunatic right-wing sensationalism and fear-mongering', and then you go off onto talking about health care.


Well lets assume that you actually meant to talk about health care, you brought up Robert Reich's speech. What about it did you want to discuss?

[soothsayer]

Well lets assume that you actually meant to talk about health care, you brought up Robert Reich's speech. What about it did you want to discuss?

I'll say again:
That Labor Secretary Robert Reich, National Democrat Party spokesperson, and Berkeley professor said to a group of fellow Democrats regarding Socialized Medicine in a rare, embarrassing and covered-up speech that:

"If we were going to be honest about U.S. govt-run healthcare we'd have to admit to :

Impoverishing levels of taxation on current and future generations

Rationing of healthcare

Reduction in incentive for innovation in healthcare

Such severe rationing of care to the elderly that it amounts to euthanasia
exact quote: "We're going to let you die"

Evidence of it in practice in the UK.


"In other words, this is what the truth is and what a candidate will never say, but what a candidate should say if we were in the kind of democracy where citizens were honored in terms of their practice of citizenship and if they were educated in terms of what the issues were and if they could separate myth from reality in terms of what candidates would tell them."


Does historical evidence---perpetual as well as recent--- and more importantly, common experience and COMMON SENSE so elude the respondents to this post that they are unable to debate rationally this obviously hastily ushered-in, deceptive and all-but-secret bit of legislation?

I mean, just to help you out, I'll offer that one could make the argument that such an unconstitutional take-over scheme is desirable because of some misplaced sense of dictatorial 'fairness" ---the law and 200 years of history and precedent be damned---then at least that would be a valid argument.

[Jack]

"We're going to let you die" hardly equates with "We're going to kill you."

[Jack]

Let's not enter into lunatic right-wing sensationalism and fear-mongering by venturing to speculate about the asphyxiation death of Obama's actual grandma the night of his curious solo visit to her bedside in Hawaii (she being among the few capable of attesting to his actual birthplace/citizenship)...

You know, this Glenn Beck tactic of suggesting yet denying spurious allegations has come back to haunt him...

May 10, 1990, 11 year old Robin Cornell and her 32 year old babysitter, Lisa Storey were found beaten,raped, and smothered to death in Cape Coral, Florida. Police are now interviewing local detectives to re-open the case, but if they don’t find any new leads by the end of the year it will be closed. They are also looking into airing an episode on Americas Most Wanted. This town desperately needs your help in solving this case. Beck was also linked to the rape and murder of seven-year old Margaret Shrader in Harris County, Texas in 1990. Source: Story Not Available I’m not saying he definitely did it, but it is curious how he’s not out there denying it. I mean where is his statement on this issue? Where is his criminal record? He should release these things to the public if these so-called allegations are false, but it’s pretty disturbing nonetheless. Especially with the fact that where there’s smoke there is fire. I wonder how many other rapes and murders done by Glenn Beck are out there that we don’t know about yet.

Glenn Beck Raped And Murdered A Girl In 1990 | gatsome

Glenn Beck Killed Our Pet. We Think. (Blueweeds: Glenn Beck Killed Our Pet. We Think.)

Unlike Beck these people were honest about their accusations. The rape and murder story is a parody meant to illustrate how foolish it is to employ baseless accusations even in denial.

Quite the lame tactic in my opinion.

[soothsayer]

Jack...
still skirting the fact that Reich put his foot in the democrats' mouth.. big time!

[soothsayer]

how about for once you actually defend your own current system and explain to all of us exactly how your current system is so damn better?

1. Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers. Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the United Kingdom and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

2. Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians. Breast cancer mortality in Canada is 9 percent higher than in the United States, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher, and colon cancer among men is about 10 percent higher.

3. Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit from statin drugs, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease, are taking them. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons, and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

4. Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians. Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate, and colon cancer:

Nine out of ten middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to fewer than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).

Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a Pap smear, compared to fewer than 90 percent of Canadians.

More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a prostatespecific antigen (PSA) test, compared to fewer than one in six Canadians (16 percent).

Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with fewer than one in twenty Canadians (5 percent).

5. Lower-income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report “excellent” health (11.7 percent) compared to Canadian seniors (5.8 percent). Conversely, white, young Canadian adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower-income Americans to describe their health as “fair or poor.”

6. Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the United Kingdom. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long—sometimes more than a year—to see a specialist, have elective surgery such as hip replacements, or get radiation treatment for cancer. All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada. In Britain, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.

7. People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian (excepting Praxius), Australian, New Zealand, and British adults say their health system needs either “fundamental change” or “complete rebuilding.”

8. Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the “health care system,” more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared with only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

9. Americans have better access to important new technologies such as medical imaging than do patients in Canada or Britain. An overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identify computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade—even as economists and policy makers unfamiliar with actual medical practice decry these techniques as wasteful. The United States has thirty-four CT scanners per million Americans, compared to twelve in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has almost twenty-seven MRI machines per million people compared to about six per million in Canada and Britain.

10. Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other developed country. Since the mid- 1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to U.S. residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In only five of the past thirty-four years did a scientist living in the United States not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States:

TLC :: TV Listings :: The Woman With Giant Legs
Mandy Sellars embarks on a journey to America, where she will meet the world's leading experts in amputation and prosthetics, leaving her home in the United Kingdom seeking an alternative to a double amputation.



Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and care for the uninsured,
the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

Hoover Institution - Hoover Digest - Here’s a Second Opinion