Is this what really happened?

[Sean]

Hmm…I've been hearing complaints about this topic from both sides.

Here's the thing. I asked specifically that this sort of topics go into the butterface, or are labeled appropriately (conspiracy). The reason for this is to avoid what we have here. The issue can't be debated by most, so users who can't believe what you just posted are going to have a field day. I am just telling you how it is here. Perhaps you would be happier if I renamed butterface to something a little nicer? I’m serious; maybe that’s why people avoid using the forum until I force you to by moving your topic. It’s meant to be a place where you can talk about anything with any group (large or small). I can’t tell users to avoid your topic. I can tell them to stop insulting you, but these sort of topics will often get these responses from people as I’ve said.

Some people would find this topic to be absurd. I'm not going to judge the absurdness of your topics, but I will tell you that such topics won't do well in the main forum of a site that attracts many with tons of different ideologies. I’ll be even more honest on this issue. If I were a regular poster I would be tempted to say something like “are you serious” because this is one of those topics that I can’t understand. Our government, and our video footage has shown a plane hitting such buildings. To doubt the sincerity of both of these sources (media and gov) I’d have to put nearly everything into question, and debate would turn into my word vs. yours (their word vs someone else’s, etc). To most, this is as I’ve said…absurd. BUT THAT’S MY OPINION

Oh, and people have been telling me to keep an eye on certain posts. I can't do this. I respond to reports. I'm a full time student who goes to school from about 8:30 in the morning until 8:00 at night. Bring stuff to me, so I can respond like this.

Cool?

[Nono]

Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the meaning of the term "butterface". True, though, it doesn't sound too flattering.

Perhaps what's required is another reorganization of the forums.
Personally I'm skeptical of conspiracy theories in general, but conspiracies have been known to exist in human affairs, and in this particular case the heading "government" would seem perfectly relevant.

Since 911 and the events that have directly arisen from it are a major component of "the news" worldwide these days, you could create something entitled "911 and aftermath" or "The long shadow of the WTC" or some such thing.

I thought the "butterface" was basically a steam valve for incoherent rants. That doesn't make it a particularly attractive setting for a real debate (and there has been some real debate in this thread) -- sort of like going off with your girlfriend to some rat-infested alley for a screw.

Originally posted by Sean The issue can't be debated by most, so users who can't believe what you just posted are going to have a field day.

I seems to me that a fair number of topics are like that. The global warming thread was a good example. And how much do I have to believe of what I see claimed under the heading "religion"? Etc.

If users can't believe what somebody posts, they should challenge it. Basta.

[MDL5150]

Originally posted by Rainbow,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rainbow,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Osborn F Enready, What do you think?  (Please don't answer if you haven't watched the video.)

Speculations.[/b][/quote]

You want links:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/dynamic/o...ntagon%5F7.html

Videos like that and the discussion about how this was not a Boeing 757 are a slap in the face to the people that were there and servived. My dad's best friend barely got out of the Pentagon in time... You going to tell him that the Jet fuel and the fire and the plane parts he jumped over where all "in his head"....

And to the video part where they keep saying all the "Eyewitnesses said it Sounded like a missle or looked like a small commuter jet"... remember this, the first few reports from the WTC attacks had people saying that the plane that struck the first tower was a commutter plane...

One report I remember on the radio said that the plane that hit the first tower was a prop driven private plane...

[MDL5150]

some additional links:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm

http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/dynamic/o...e.asp%3Fid=2445

the entire field is strewn with debris from the plane hitting and a good portion of it disentagrating after hitting the re-enforced concrete.

"Members of Congress have been shuttled to the site to inspect the damage. Rep. Judy Biggert (R-Ill.) made the trip on Thursday. She saw remnants of the airplane.

''There was a seat from a plane, there was part of the tail and then there was a part of green metal, I could not tell what it was, a part of the outside of the plane,'' she said. ''It smelled like it was still burning.''

But by far the best artical is this one:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/dynamic/o....com/2002/03/14

[Rainbow]

MDL5150

My answer as a "speculation", refers to some materials spread all over (especially through the Net) which suggest that it was not a plane but a missile (or a military object) that hit "Pentagon" building, instead.

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by Sean, I’m serious; maybe that’s why people avoid using the forum until I force you to by moving your topic.

No, we're to lazy to scroll. Butterface is all the way at the bottom of the page.

[MDL5150]

Rainbow,

I understand that this is all speculation however, this hit rather close to home. My dads friend went to Vietnam with him. They were best friends in childhood, they were best friends in Nam, they are best friends now.

He had to quit working at the Pentagon after the attacks because of PTS from NAM. Just couldn't hack the memories of what he went through 30+ years ago then he had to relive them all that day. I have talked with him in depth about the Pentagon attack. I have asked him questions about what happened.

There is no speculation. It was a plane that hit the building. But because of someones desire to turn everything I MEAN EVERYTHING into some kinda Government Conspiracy we all have to deal with this Arm Chair Quarterbacking of the events of that day...

I mean you can take it down to the point and say, "Well, it could have been a missle that hit the Pentagon, or a high speed paper airplane with Titainum Skin movine close to the speed of sound being flown by Kermit the Frog, because he hasn't been seen since the attacks, and big bird controlling everything else...

It was a 757 that hit the Pentagon. For everyone else who says that it was something else, well I am sure that they will finally find the second shooter on the grassy knoll, they will find the soundstage where the moon landings were filmed and they will find Elvis working at the 7-11 down the street...

For every "Speculation" as to try to disprove otherwise you can easily find the facts that support the truth. I have already posted the links before that will show that so to anyone who says "Post the links man, because we did" can go and bite me because I already have....

Billy ran over the bodies, through the flames, past the debris from the plane and through the jet fuel to save himself... It is a disrespect to those that died there to try to "Speculate" otherwise...

[PatrickHenry]

"Grassy knoll" is not the best example for those who wish to debunk conspiracy theories. Nearly everyone has seen the Zapruder film of Kennedy's head slamming backwards from a bullet impact in the front.

[Rainbow]

MDL5150

I sense a sort of misunderstanding.

I take all the materials (mostly) published all over the Net, with concern to events that took place on September 11, 2001, with a reference to Pentagon building, partially destroyed by other sources, mechanisms, devices, ect. than a plane, as : speculations.

In other words : a hijacked (by terrorists) plane, hit Pentagon building.

[MDL5150]

Ok,

however, my comments themselves are for those within the thread that speculate otherwise. Those that believe it was a missle or a smaller Jet or that there is some lager conspiracy at work and that what we saw, experianced and lived through is something other then what it was...

www.mikedlong.com

[MDL5150]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, "Grassy knoll" is not the best example for those who wish to debunk conspiracy theories. Nearly everyone has seen the Zapruder film of Kennedy's head slamming backwards from a bullet impact in the front.

For every action there is an equal and oppisite reaction. If he was shot from the front his head would have slammed forward first, not backward....

Law of physics... not speculation

[PatrickHenry]

OK, if I sock you in the nose, what happens to your head? Not that I would do such a terrible thing, but the impact of forces causes movement.

Maybe a less provacative example would be on a pool table. When the cue ball hits the eight ball what happens?

[Osborn F Enready]

MDL 5150, get a grip.

If you can't understand the ability to investigate the goings on and operation of goverment and media viability, you are out of touch with reality.

We don't all know people "who were there", thus we need to investigate ALL sources, even sometimes if it means THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX, if you know what I mean.

Sean, if you can't understand the free thinking necessity of questioning "the popular story" maybe you two are a little too biased in free thought?!? Butterface is a place where things are put, I didn't put it here, but yet it is. If it makes the mods feel better, the owner, or whatever, gratify yourselves to your hearts content. I post here because I like some of the people, and those that can debate. When it loses its attraction I will leave, unless I get the boot sooner.

Did I post debate questions? Did I demean anyone for not agreeing with me, or did I insult anyone without being overly provoked? Is this VIDEO I provided a link too "not proper material" for your forum?
Please explain if you can find the time.

When does freethought become conspiracy? Can I get a graph for that? Pie chart? Flow chart maybe?

[MDL5150]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, OK, if I sock you in the nose, what happens to your head? Not that I would do such a terrible thing, but the impact of forces causes movement. Maybe a less provacative example would be on a pool table. When the cue ball hits the eight ball what happens?

First,

Your fist is a blunt object that will continue to push my head backwards as you follow through. Now, if you take a bullet that is traveling at 1300 feet per second, that is turning in a corkscrew fashion becasue of the rifling of the barrel and does not have the blunt mass/area of your fist the bullet will:

1. Enter the head (your fist will push the head)
2. The action of the bullet entering the skull will cause the head pull forward from the force being applied to it from the bullet and the turning of the bullet will cause the head to slightly turn in the oppisite direction of the turnning.


This was not only tested by the Warren Commision but also by NOVA about 5 or 6 years ago that looked at both points of view on the shooting of JFK and then tested again by the Discovery channel about 2 years ago...

take a rifle and a watermellon or pumpkin or ballistics Gell... See what you come up with....

[MDL5150]

Originally posted by Osborn F Enready, This site takes a minute to load, and I believe requires a flash player, but well worth the look.  See for yourself. Actual testimony of those that saw "what" hit the pentagon, video footage from the pentagon security cameras, and a ton more information on just what the press and the Fed don't want you to see. http://www.elchulo.net/files/pentagon.swf What do you think?  (Please don't answer if you haven't watched the video.)

You asked people "What do you think"... did you not??? I watched the video... I told you what I thought...

I never demeaned you however, I did tell you what I think. I did not call you an Idiot, Stupid, Arrogant, Unforgiving, A##Hole now did I.

This is not my Forum, and because of that I understand that anyone can post what they will. I understand that this place gives the venue for people ot post 'whatever they will'. but it also give people like me the ability to post what they feel...

You say that this information is something that the FEDS don't want us to see... Read the 9/11 commision report. theres more information there then in that video snipit. the information is available on numerous links, papers, web sites... the Feds arn't hiding anything...

If however you feel that my posting something in difference to your post violates some unwritten code of Free Speech (Like the Orginator of the post is right and keep all other opinions to yourself) then please let me know, I'll refrain from offending you by posting in your discussion threads....

Mike

[MDL5150]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, OK, if I sock you in the nose, what happens to your head? Not that I would do such a terrible thing, but the impact of forces causes movement. Maybe a less provacative example would be on a pool table. When the cue ball hits the eight ball what happens?

a cue ball is being hit with something of the same mass and density. someones head and bullet are different all together.

take a Bow and Arrow. Shoot a watermellon. the mellon will learch forward on impact.

[MDL5150]

Patrick Henry:

Go here to view these tests:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dealey.htm

Take a look at the test with a water mellon and Dr Latimer. What you find is when someone shoots a skull or a mellon that the object goes toward the shooter as in the Law of Physics that states "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"...

had there been a shooter on the grassy knoll that shot JFK in the head his head would have flown toward the knoll not toward the depository...

[gr8fuldaniel]

A bullet flattens out on impact and continues to flatten with resistence. In the Zapruder film you can see Jackie O. trying to put JFK's scalp back on...in the back. With a bullett flattening out you would have the impact to throw the head back. If the bullet were full metal jacket it may pass through almost the same size as it went in. I throw in with the 2nd gunman theory.

[MDL5150]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel, A bullet flattens out on impact and continues to flatten with resistence. In the Zapruder film you can see Jackie O. trying to put JFK's scalp back on...in the back. With a bullett flattening out you would have the impact to throw the head back. If the bullet were full metal jacket it may pass through almost the same size as it went in. I throw in with the 2nd gunman theory.

it was a full metal jaket bullet...

this is the bullet viewed from the side
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ce399.jpg

this is the bullet viewed from the back
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ce399.gif

now, if you want to read what a
bullet does to a person when it hit you i invite you to read:

Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting From Wound Trauma. (El Segundo, CA, 1994, Ballistic Publications) or you can read this interview:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/macpher.htm

[MDL5150]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel, A bullet flattens out on impact and continues to flatten with resistence. In the Zapruder film you can see Jackie O. trying to put JFK's scalp back on...in the back. With a bullett flattening out you would have the impact to throw the head back. If the bullet were full metal jacket it may pass through almost the same size as it went in. I throw in with the 2nd gunman theory.

and I offer to you this as well:

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100shot5b.html

read what Harrison E. Livingstone has to say and read what the consultant to the movie JFK had to say as well...