How To Stop Illegal Immigration

[ironeagle]

Ok most Americans, and I am sure some Europeans, who would like to admit to their immigration problem, know that illegal imigrants can devastate the population, the culture, the jobs, the religion, the sanctity and peace and finances of their country. So what is the best way to discourage, curtail, slow down, and stop illegal imigration? keep in mind the things I am proposing are not because I hate people or because I don't believe these are people too, it is because they choose to break the law and yes a vast majority refuse to follow our laws, speak our language, or even respect our religous views and national heritage, yet want to come live here. I just want it controlled and done the legal way. If they want to be here let them first learn our language, let them learn our laws, and heritage and let them be legal citizens, who then will have all the same responsibilities, rights, privledges, and protections as the rest of us. In fact I would say they seem to have more protection than we do, we have to go to jail if we break the law, we have to pay for our food, we have to pay for our medical care, we have to show our ID's, birthcertificates, and/or social security cards to get assistance. Why shouldn't they?

Here's my opinion on it.
1. Absolutley no bleeding heart pitty, and no amnesty for violating the law. I think as a felony it should hold a minimum of a ten year sentence. I believe that would encourage imigrants not to cross the border in the first place.

2. Deport the aliens back to their original countries after their sentence has been served and if possible implement a treaty with Mexico to help each other secure the borders. A small financial incentive oughta do the trick, or the US government could just bill the Mexican government for each and every convict and deportee.

3. When an illegal alien is caught and they have children born in the U.S the government should make the children wards of the state in which they are found, perminently. After all they are American citizens in that case and belong here, their parents will soon discover it is not ok to be a criminal who has broken into a country they don't belong in.

4. If a child is not born here, then they should be sent back to a relative or become wards of the government they came from for their people to support and pay out taxes for, instead of us paying for these criminals children.

5. Rubber bullet any illegal who crosses the border illegally if necisary to stop them, automaticaly arrest them, and try them.

6. Pass (AND ENFORCE)federal laws making it a felony to knowingly hire an illegal immigrant , aid and abet an illegal imigrant, give refuge to an illegal immigrant, allow an illegal immigrant housing, allow an illegal immigrant to obtain a bank account, allow an illegal imigrant puplic assistance in any form, to grant amnesty to or give an id or drivers license to an illegal immigrant, and to allow an illegal immigrant to attend public or private schools of any kind.

7. I also think that although all people should have the right to a lawyer I think the government from which the imigrant came should pay that fee if the person cannot afford one themselves, because the only reason a person who is a legal citizen is granted one, is because they pay taxes, and when an illegal does not pay taxes or steals an identity to get paid and pays taxes in that way, the taxes are paid in the name in which they stole not their own and therefore are not entitled to any tax money for their representation.

8. The only rights they should be afforded are the basic needs until they are deported, which are shelter, food, and clothing. In addition they should recieve medical care only when needed and should be billed for the money spent on them just as criminals in American prisons are billed. These criminals should get no different or preferential treatment.

9. Increased support and finance of border patrol and NIS. Increased special units placed in all states and in as many counties as pracricle to find and catch illegal immigrants, and more raids in factories, seasonal jobs, including farms and other immigrant magnet jobs. Additional it would help if Americans who casually hire gardners, handy men, and the like started asking for Id first. if the cost is really low they are probably working under the table or illegal or both. Hire from a reputtable company or a friend or family member instead.

10. People need to stop feeling sorry for people who violate the law, the less bleeding heart sympathy they get, and the less moral support they get, the less legislative and government support they get , which is what is needed to curtail their presence here.

[SoylentGreen]

"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset hates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lighting, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[Aussie]

You wont stop illegal immigrants entering like you wont stop drugs, weapons, tobacco, you name it, unless you wish to spend half your budget on Border Patrol.

And isn't your economy propped up by illegal immigrant workers anyway?

[Gods_Mercenary]

An exaggeration, but in many areas they are quite important. How about making legal immigration easier, as well as more reasonalbe guest worker program with mexico.

[berrydune]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary An exaggeration, but in many areas they are quite important. How about making legal immigration easier, as well as more reasonalbe guest worker program with mexico.

makes sense. create something positive out of it instead.

[Aussie]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary An exaggeration, but in many areas they are quite important. How about making legal immigration easier, as well as more reasonalbe guest worker program with mexico.

I should have worded that as, how well would your economy be doing without illegal workers

[Gods_Mercenary]

Probably not much different, just cheap contractors and whatnot would have to pay a decent wage. Certainly in my area, you probably wouldn't notice anything unless you are in a certain neighborhood of the city, maybe.

[ironeagle]

First of all the workers stealing identities and jobs that aren't theirs get paid the same as other workers, but if we reduce their numbers and keep the jobs which hire illegals for low pay, filled with legal workers who get correct pay, then we would have less people to feed and more people with good income and jobs that can then feed their families themselves. We will reduce crime which will help reduce spending on crime related expenses. It will lower taxes, and lower the amount of welfare that is spent overall throughout the country for people who have no right being here. I believe it will reduce the threat to our finances.

[Whilletal]

We could stop it but we don't have the guts to do what it takes.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Whilletal We could stop it but we don't have the guts to do what it takes.

You mean pick up a broom and work for subsistent wages?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: ironeagle Here's my opinion on it. 1. Absolutley no bleeding heart pitty, and no amnesty for violating the law. I think as a felony it should hold a minimum of a ten year sentence. I believe that would encourage imigrants not to cross the border in the first place.

You are grossly underestimating their former conditions then.

Free room and board and freedom from political oppression. Security and average standard of living (just crappy company). Plus, hold immigrants in this country is counter to what you are trying to accomplish, no?

2. Deport the aliens back to their original countries after their sentence has been served and if possible implement a treaty with Mexico to help each other secure the borders. A small financial incentive oughta do the trick, or the US government could just bill the Mexican government for each and every convict and deportee.

How do you secure the borders? That's more importent a question.

Where does the money come from?

3. When an illegal alien is caught and they have children born in the U.S the government should make the children wards of the state in which they are found, perminently. After all they are American citizens in that case and belong here, their parents will soon discover it is not ok to be a criminal who has broken into a country they don't belong in.

But if the country they belong to says "baby isn't in ours." After all, the Mexican government doesn't want to pay for all the new wards of state.

Where does the baby go then? Is it dumped on the boarder?

My issue with your arguments isn't the ideology, it's the practicality or lack there of.

5. Rubber bullet any illegal who crosses the border illegally if necisary to stop them, automaticaly arrest them, and try them.

Who sits around and waits to fire said magical bullet and on who's dime?

6. Pass (AND ENFORCE)federal laws making it a felony to knowingly hire an illegal immigrant , aid and abet an illegal imigrant, give refuge to an illegal immigrant, allow an illegal immigrant housing, allow an illegal immigrant to obtain a bank account, allow an illegal imigrant puplic assistance in any form, to grant amnesty to or give an id or drivers license to an illegal immigrant, and to allow an illegal immigrant to attend public or private schools of any kind.

For most of these, it isn't an issue since most of what you asked requires some form of id.

There is also a point which human rights become an issue. A small one.

7. I also think that although all people should have the right to a lawyer I think the government from which the imigrant came should pay that fee if the person cannot afford one themselves, because the only reason a person who is a legal citizen is granted one, is because they pay taxes, and when an illegal does not pay taxes or steals an identity to get paid and pays taxes in that way, the taxes are paid in the name in which they stole not their own and therefore are not entitled to any tax money for their representation.

If the Mexican government just laughs at you for asking them to pay the legal fees...?

Plus, you must first prove in court that the person is not actually a US citizen therefore creating a catch-22.

8. The only rights they should be afforded are the basic needs until they are deported, which are shelter, food, and clothing. In addition they should recieve medical care only when needed and should be billed for the money spent on them just as criminals in American prisons are billed. These criminals should get no different or preferential treatment.

Prisoners aren't billed for their medical treatment (a source for mockery of the health care system).

9. Increased support and finance of border patrol and NIS. Increased special units placed in all states and in as many counties as pracricle to find and catch illegal immigrants, and more raids in factories, seasonal jobs, including farms and other immigrant magnet jobs.

Who pays for it? The boarder is 2000 miles long. 1760 yards to a mile.

Lets say a human covers 50 yards of space (a long shot by any standard). Around 70,000 people would be needed to guard the boarder for a single shift. 210,000 for three shifts. How much would it take to pay these people for a day, let a lone every day of ever week of the year?

This would be an operation that, at it's bare bones, could cost fifty billion dollars a year. Probably a lot more (like several times the amount). This would cripple our economy as it is government spending on a scale yet unheard of.

And if you are going to do this, go all out instead of kinda, sort of doing it. Otherwise it's a waste of money and no actual results.

10. People need to stop feeling sorry for people who violate the law, the less bleeding heart sympathy they get, and the less moral support they get, the less legislative and government support they get , which is what is needed to curtail their presence here.

Careful. Nazis said similar things about the Jews.

One man's bleeding heart is another's moral compass. Be careful not to confuse the two.

Ok most Americans, and I am sure some Europeans, who would like to admit to their immigration problem, know that illegal imigrants can devastate the population, the culture, the jobs, the religion, the sanctity and peace and finances of their country.

Yah, just look what it did to New York. Financial center of America and the world in some ways. Golden age for the arts there. Great food. Diversity is killing America.

Look, I'm not saying you don't have a point. I'm saying you're making a lot of assumptions without much fact. I need numbers and support. Practicality is key.

[ironeagle]

You are grossly incorrect sir. There are cities all over this country which grant amnesty to the illegal aliens not requiring them to show any id to get public benefits. In fact I went into to dhs to get information on assistance for medical for my self since I am pregnant and my insurance doesn't start for two more months, and on the wall was a big notice in giant letters saying they won't turn anyone into to immigration for applying for assistance. Additionally certain states and cities have been granting illegal aliens drivers licenses. The rubber bullet was meant to replace live bullets, because the border patrol officers are being convicted of crimes for doing their jobs, when a drug dealer illegal immigrant runs from arrest. Admittedly keeping them jailed is somewhat counter to wanting them to leave, however it is a proven fact most illegals have been sent back and reentered over 10 times. Repeatedly reoffending, it is high time they labor in a prison and pay for their stay here. If the Mexican government doesn't want to claim a citizen it isn't really their right to make us keep them. I have to say I really don't think the Us with all it's power will have that much trouble forcing the Mexican government to take back their citizens.If we have to house their citizen they should pay a monthly fee for that child to be in our foster care system. If you want practical, I have some alternative ideas than what I wrote above, shoot to kill upon illegally entering, build a wall just like the wall of china and put the army on patrol. Yet somehow these practicle ideas won't be used because Americans are too bleeding heart for it. Don't think I don't know what goes on in Mexico, don't think I don't understand their woes, I do very well, however I don't think that entitles them to break our laws, reduce our country to their low standards of living, nor do I think we are responsible to house them all our make it better for them. Not when it means letting them break the law without any responsibility for the punishment, not when it means tax payers have to pay for illegals to eat, and shop at our stores, and not when it means drug running increases, overpopulation, changing the local restaurant menu to Spanish and watching illegals with no fear of arrest picketing our capitols.

[Matt W]

If you're stating 'facts', ironeagle, it's up to you to prove it. Show your sources.

[Shade]

Should it be illegal for someone to move from Chicago to Minneapolis?

Should it be illegal for someone to move from Chicago to Toronto?

Why?

[Dan_77]

Quote by: Matt W If you're stating 'facts', ironeagle, it's up to you to prove it. Show your sources.

X2

This thread, like most "immigration" threads, is based on nothing but racism and ignorance. There are no facts to assert that immigrants do anything even close to costing the country more than they contribute.

The most ignorant and stupid position is one of hypocrisy - as in, "my ancestors entered the country without having to go through onerous and draconian immigration laws, but immigrants now should have to do that". Why? Because they're brown.

[ironeagle]

Wrong, I happen to like legal Latino immigrants. You know why? Because they worked hard to get here, came in honestly and followed the law, they use their own true identities to go to work , pay taxes, get the same protections under the law as I do, buy products, most like to learn the language and are respectful to the rest of us. It isn't about wether it should or should not be illegal to move from one place to another, it is about the fact that it IS illegal to enter our country the wrong way, and it's about the fact we need to have control over the population to some degree, and take care first, of our citizens and let in others when we can support their numbers better. A person from Mexico or Canada or where ever should not have the right to be free from arrest when they break the law, just because they didn't like living in the country they came from. MattW do you want me to go back to DHS and take a picture of the sign?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: ironeagle In fact I went into to dhs to get information on assistance for medical for my self since I am pregnant and my insurance doesn't start for two more months, and on the wall was a big notice in giant letters saying they won't turn anyone into to immigration for applying for assistance.

That sounds like an extension of doctor-patient confidentiality. I could be wrong, but US law makes all such conversations impermissible in court. (Though I don't know what kind of medical advise you're talking about...)

Right or wrong, at least the dhs isn't hiding the truth.

Additionally certain states and cities have been granting illegal aliens drivers licenses.

But you do need a ton of id for that (at least in New York). Usually your birth certificate or passport, or something.

The rubber bullet was meant to replace live bullets, because the border patrol officers are being convicted of crimes for doing their jobs, when a drug dealer illegal immigrant runs from arrest.

Rubber bullets seem more apt for riot control. Tazers would be the weapon of choice for a fleeing suspect, no?

Ah, but I don't know much about this area anyway.

Admittedly keeping them jailed is somewhat counter to wanting them to leave, however it is a proven fact most illegals have been sent back and reentered over 10 times. Repeatedly reoffending, it is high time they labor in a prison and pay for their stay here.

What use is it to put them in prison? What's the practical application? In the mean time, they get free health care, free food, shelter, and all on who's dime? What's the current rate of illegal immigrants? Multiply that by all those costs. Multiply that by all the time they will spend, and you're talking about an obscene amount of money and for what?

No, it would be better to build another Great Wall of China than pay for all the illegal immigrants.

If you want practical, I have some alternative ideas than what I wrote above, shoot to kill upon illegally entering

This would bring the ire of the entire international community. The United States would suffer a political crisis that would make Tianamen look like a Barbra Walter special.

Not to mention the fact that it is moral wrong on a degree which is beyond belief.

build a wall just like the wall of china and put the army on patrol.

248,000 American troops led the war in Iraq.

As stated in a previous post, about the same number of troops would be needed to give the wall the meanest protection. Meaning if several of the illegal immigrants had a gun and charged one 50yd area at once, they would probably kill the guards and get through without trouble.

Can you imagine a troop movement that would surmount the troop movement in the Iraq war? By the way, the Regular Army has around 531,000 troops. Over half would be dedicated to this...and it still wouldn't be enough.

How will you fix this?

however I don't think that entitles them to break our laws, reduce our country to their low standards of living, nor do I think we are responsible to house them all our make it better for them. Not when it means letting them break the law without any responsibility for the punishment, not when it means tax payers have to pay for illegals to eat, and shop at our stores, and not when it means drug running increases, overpopulation

Some statements above are exaggerated, but it isn't totally unfair. I just need to know where the manpower is coming from.

changing the local restaurant menu to Spanish

...And the walls came tumbling down...

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: ironeagle Here's my opinion on it. 1. Absolutley no bleeding heart pitty, and no amnesty for violating the law. I think as a felony it should hold a minimum of a ten year sentence. I believe that would encourage imigrants not to cross the border in the first place.

You're still keeping them here with this proposal which is too harsh, and inhumane. Read about this woman;

Use of shackles upsets lawyer : State and Regional News : Knoxville News Sentinel

2. Deport the aliens back to their original countries after their sentence has been served and if possible implement a treaty with Mexico to help each other secure the borders. A small financial incentive oughta do the trick, or the US government could just bill the Mexican government for each and every convict and deportee.

This doesn't sound like it could be implemented.

3. When an illegal alien is caught and they have children born in the U.S the government should make the children wards of the state in which they are found, perminently. After all they are American citizens in that case and belong here, their parents will soon discover it is not ok to be a criminal who has broken into a country they don't belong in

Too harsh. This isn't the Dark Ages.

4. If a child is not born here, then they should be sent back to a relative or become wards of the government they came from for their people to support and pay out taxes for, instead of us paying for these criminals children.

This sounds ok to me.

5. Rubber bullet any illegal who crosses the border illegally if necisary to stop them, automaticaly arrest them, and try them.

No trial, just deport them back.

6. Pass (AND ENFORCE)federal laws making it a felony to knowingly hire an illegal immigrant , aid and abet an illegal imigrant, give refuge to an illegal immigrant, allow an illegal immigrant housing, allow an illegal immigrant to obtain a bank account, allow an illegal imigrant puplic assistance in any form, to grant amnesty to or give an id or drivers license to an illegal immigrant, and to allow an illegal immigrant to attend public or private schools of any kind.

What's with all the felonies? You want to make everybody a criminal. This is too harsh IMHO.

7. I also think that although all people should have the right to a lawyer I think the government from which the imigrant came should pay that fee if the person cannot afford one themselves, because the only reason a person who is a legal citizen is granted one, is because they pay taxes, and when an illegal does not pay taxes or steals an identity to get paid and pays taxes in that way, the taxes are paid in the name in which they stole not their own and therefore are not entitled to any tax money for their representation.

This would be ok, but I see no need to try them, just deport them, and keep a record of them and their deportation.

8. The only rights they should be afforded are the basic needs until they are deported, which are shelter, food, and clothing. In addition they should recieve medical care only when needed and should be billed for the money spent on them just as criminals in American prisons are billed. These criminals should get no different or preferential treatment.

Don't feel they should be put in jail with hardened criminals unless thery have committed a crime. This is too harsh, again, IMHO. They should have deportation centers like homeless shelters that provide basic necessities.

9. Increased support and finance of border patrol and NIS. Increased special units placed in all states and in as many counties as pracricle to find and catch illegal immigrants, and more raids in factories, seasonal jobs, including farms and other immigrant magnet jobs. Additional it would help if Americans who casually hire gardners, handy men, and the like started asking for Id first. if the cost is really low they are probably working under the table or ille

Increased security is a necessary element, but the of hiring friends and relatives isn't going to happen. Not likely.

10. People need to stop feeling sorry for people who violate the law, the less bleeding heart sympathy they get, and the less moral support they get, the less legislative and government support they get , which is what is needed to curtail their presence here.

This has some elements of truth to it for me, but I don't know how you can stop something that has already been started. It would have been easier if a tougher attitude had been started long, long ago. We are paying for our own mistakes at this point.

[Matt W]

Quote by: ironeagle Wrong, I happen to like legal Latino immigrants. You know why? Because they worked hard to get here, came in honestly and followed the law, they use their own true identities to go to work , pay taxes, get the same protections under the law as I do, buy products, most like to learn the language and are respectful to the rest of us. It isn't about wether it should or should not be illegal to move from one place to another, it is about the fact that it IS illegal to enter our country the wrong way, and it's about the fact we need to have control over the population to some degree, and take care first, of our citizens and let in others when we can support their numbers better. A person from Mexico or Canada or where ever should not have the right to be free from arrest when they break the law, just because they didn't like living in the country they came from. MattW do you want me to go back to DHS and take a picture of the sign?

No, I suggest you go onto their website and find the facts to back up your claims. It isn't up to other posters to find this, and expecting people to take your word for it is somewhat naive.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tivodan1116 X2 This thread, like most "immigration" threads, is based on nothing but racism and ignorance. There are no facts to assert that immigrants do anything even close to costing the country more than they contribute. The most ignorant and stupid position is one of hypocrisy - as in, "my ancestors entered the country without having to go through onerous and draconian immigration laws, but immigrants now should have to do that". Why? Because they're brown.

The hypocrisy is all yours. In your second sentence you make the point about the costs of illegal immigration. In your last, you play the race card. It's you that makes the attempt to tie opposition to illegal immigration to color.

As for "There are no facts to assert that immigrants do anything even close to costing the country more than they contribute", that's pure unadulterated garbage, as I suspect you know and try to ignore. A simple Google will bring up innumerable links to documented costs that illegal immigrants impose on citizen-taxpayers. We've been through this subject many times in many threads. I'm not even going to bother posting any links, having done so so often in past threads with RMNunez.