How To Stop Illegal Immigration

[ironeagle]

Quote by: Winter wind That sounds like an extension of doctor-patient confidentiality. I could be wrong, but US law makes all such conversations impermissible in court. (Though I don't know what kind of medical advise you're talking about...) Right or wrong, at least the dhs isn't hiding the truth. But you do need a ton of id for that (at least in New York). Usually your birth certificate or passport, or something. Rubber bullets seem more apt for riot control. Tazers would be the weapon of choice for a fleeing suspect, no? Ah, but I don't know much about this area anyway. What use is it to put them in prison? What's the practical application? In the mean time, they get free health care, free food, shelter, and all on who's dime? What's the current rate of illegal immigrants? Multiply that by all those costs. Multiply that by all the time they will spend, and you're talking about an obscene amount of money and for what? No, it would be better to build another Great Wall of China than pay for all the illegal immigrants. This would bring the ire of the entire international community. The United States would suffer a political crisis that would make Tianamen look like a Barbra Walter special. Not to mention the fact that it is moral wrong on a degree which is beyond belief. 248,000 American troops led the war in Iraq. As stated in a previous post, about the same number of troops would be needed to give the wall the meanest protection. Meaning if several of the illegal immigrants had a gun and charged one 50yd area at once, they would probably kill the guards and get through without trouble. Can you imagine a troop movement that would surmount the troop movement in the Iraq war? By the way, the Regular Army has around 531,000 troops. Over half would be dedicated to this...and it still wouldn't be enough. How will you fix this? Some statements above are exaggerated, but it isn't totally unfair. I just need to know where the manpower is coming from. ...And the walls came tumbling down...

Ok you aren't understanding at all. There is no exaggeration of their criminal behavior it's apparent and obvious. I also said the prisoners should have to pay for their jail time just like American prisoners, that may mean working in the laundry or some other program to pay their bill or forcing the Mexican government to pay fines for each citizen we have to put in prison because they can't get control of their own citizens. No a tazer won't work from a distance, not while a person is running. Also D.H.S does not have priveledged information between themselves and people who sign up for assistence programs, even doctors have to turn patients in if they break the law or are a danger, ie an illegal imigrant who has committed a felony, would normally be turned in for criminal activity, yet our state has decided to let them come here, and eat our food for free just because they are illegal criminals, yet they Id our citizens for food. Shame on us.

[ironeagle]

Also for those who do not wish to look up the subjects themselves, that's their problem I have no intention of wasting my time collecting links for people who do not want to read the truth anyway, as the last poster stated these links have already been given several times, the readers choose not to pay any attention to them.

[Matt W]

When acts for facts, you should substantiate them. I suggest you do so in future.

[LtMisha]

Weclome them?

I'd personally lock the borders for unskilled labourers, and shoot any that try to get in otherwise.

Or, if you like humans (as I do) perhaps the unskilled ones that do try to come in could be placed in training camps to train them to be lawyers, electricians, metalurgists, or doctors. Whatever, but most importantly, to be able to speak English. This would be done at Tescos and McDonald's expence, that is to say, if they wish to stay in Britain.

[Dan_77]

Quote by: LtMisha Weclome them? I'd personally lock the borders for unskilled labourers, and shoot any that try to get in otherwise.

Good strategy. Hey, you don't happen to know 12 million people that can pick fruit from sunup until sundown, do you?

Right, I didn't think so. That's going to be a problem.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: ironeagle I also said the prisoners should have to pay for their jail time just like American prisoners,

I have never heard of this. Nixon proposed this idea, but I've never heard of prisoners paying for their jail time. Could you post a link which backs up this statement. (it might just be because I'm from Hong Kong...but still...)

even doctors have to turn patients in if they break the law or are a danger,

"Disclosure of medical records to third parties is prohibited without written consent of the patient. Medical records may be compelled by court order or by an administrative agency. Cal. Civil Code 56."

So unless the doctor is given a court order, the doctor isn't allowed to divulge private information.

And I can't speak for the DHS, but I think they must be under the same set of laws. It's considered a medical association, no?

And you still haven't told me how you are stopping the immigrants from entering. I already told you what it would take to mobilize the army to do something like that, so what do you propose? The rest is what happens when they make it inside, so that's superfluous. How do you stop them from coming in?

[gela]

First of all the workers stealing identities and jobs that aren't theirs

YouTube - They took our jobs

We could stop it but we don't have the guts to do what it takes.

YouTube - south park-they took our jobs !!!

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Winter wind So unless the doctor is given a court order, the doctor isn't allowed to divulge private information.

Wrong. Doctors, by law, are REQUIRED to report certain type of wounds, such as gunshot wounds, and anything that appears to be molestation or deliberate injuries to a child.

[Dan_77]

Quote by: ironeagle It isn't about wether it should or should not be illegal to move from one place to another,

Of course it is. You think it should be illegal to move from one place to another.

::cold war Russian accent:: "Papers please!"

Nothing could be a more preposterous law than one that makes it illegal to shuffle a human being from one side of an arbitrary invisible line to the other.

it is about the fact that it IS illegal to enter our country the wrong way,

So our government is 100% right in every action it makes? Every law is perfect and should be obeyed to the letter?

You've broken laws. I've broken laws. We all have. You simply cannot justify an argument that something should be illegal and punishable merely because it is illegal. It's circular reasoning and it's a logical fallacy.

and it's about the fact we need to have control over the population to some degree,

Why?

and take care first, of our citizens and let in others when we can support their numbers better.

Nonsense. Once again, it amazes me how many people - like yourself, as I have seen in other debates here - call themselves "capitalists", call themselves "free market" fans, call themselves Americans, yet suddenly when it comes to apply the same principles to the LABOR market as to the markets for GOODS and SERVICES, all of a sudden they're all about tight government controls.

"Support their numbers"??? Do you have even a scintilla of evidence to suggest that our country is "full"? Since immigrants contribute more than they take, more immigrants means more support for others. It's called the free market. Immutable laws of economics do not disappear just because you don't like their effects (i.e. more hispanics coming here)

A person from Mexico or Canada or where ever should not have the right to be free from arrest when they break the law, just because they didn't like living in the country they came from. MattW do you want me to go back to DHS and take a picture of the sign?

I like how you throw in "Canada" so you don't sound racist. That's good.

Quote by: Zeebadee The hypocrisy is all yours. In your second sentence you make the point about the costs of illegal immigration. In your last, you play the race card. It's you that makes the attempt to tie opposition to illegal immigration to color.

It is tied. That should be obvious from the fact that the crackdown on all fronts is entirely based on removing "illegal" immigrants of hispanic descent from the country.

No one is suggesting building a fence across the Canadian border or passing "English only" laws to stop all the Quebecois from coming here.

No one is suggesting we start rounding up and deporting scores of eastern Europeans or Asians who come here.

As for "There are no facts to assert that immigrants do anything even close to costing the country more than they contribute", that's pure unadulterated garbage, as I suspect you know and try to ignore. A simple Google will bring up innumerable links to documented costs that illegal immigrants impose on citizen-taxpayers. We've been through this subject many times in many threads. I'm not even going to bother posting any links, having done so so often in past threads with RMNunez.

Right. So you have nothing. Post ignored.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: zeebadee Wrong. Doctors, by law, are REQUIRED to report certain type of wounds, such as gunshot wounds, and anything that appears to be molestation or deliberate injuries to a child.

You might be right, but I looked up the law in California just to be sure, and it said "Disclosure of medical records to third parties is prohibited without written consent of the patient. Medical records may be compelled by court order or by an administrative agency. Cal. Civil Code 56."

Perhaps there's a part I missed, but unless you show me, how can I be proven wrong?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Since immigrants contribute more than they take, more immigrants means more support for others.

Since you demand evidence from others, how about providing some for this ridiculous statement? (meaning illegals, of course)

[Winter wind]

Quote by: zeebadee Since you demand evidence from others, how about providing some for this ridiculous statement? (meaning illegals, of course)

I can't speak for someone else's statement, especially when it's not in line with my own. Ask tivodan.

So we are in agreement that doctors need a court ruling to turn anything over?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Right. So you have nothing. Post ignored.

Ok, I'll play your silly game for a bit.

Rising health care costs put focus on illegal immigrants - USATODAY.com

Mayor Gordon rips Congress on immigration policy

Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually

Illegal Immigration Costs Demonstrated Again » The Foundry

Frosty Wooldridge -- Chilling Costs of Illegal Alien Migration

Study: Illegal immigration costs US border counties millions - International Herald Tribune

The Fiscal Cost of Low-Skill Immigrants to the U.S. Taxpayer

Now, how many of these will you actually go and look at??

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Winter wind I can't speak for someone else's statement, especially when it's not in line with my own. Ask tivodan. So we are in agreement that doctors need a court ruling to turn anything over?

I believe I was responding to tivodan, since I was quoting him with my post. As for court rulings:

California's mandatory reporting of domestic violence injuries: does the law go too far or not far enough?

SouthCoastToday.com: California institutes abuse reporting law

MANDATORY REPORTING BY HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwi....processSearch


For California:

"Professionals Required to Report
Citation: Penal Code §§ 11166; 11165.7

Mandated reporters include any of the following:

* Teachers, teacher's assistants, administrative officers, certificated pupil personnel employees of any public or private school
* Administrators and employees of public or private day camps, youth centers, youth recreation programs, or youth organizations
* Employees of child care institutions, including, but not limited to, foster parents, group home personnel, and personnel of residential care facilities
* Social workers, probation officers, or parole officers
* Any person who is an administrator or a counselor in a child abuse prevention program in any public or private school
* District attorney investigators, peace officers, firefighters, except for volunteer firefighters
* Physicians, surgeons, psychiatrists, psychologists, dentists, licensed nurses, dental hygienists, optometrists, marriage counselors, family and child counselors, clinical social workers
* Emergency medical technicians I or II or paramedics
* State or county public health employees
* Coroners or medical examiners
* Commercial film and photographic print processors
* Child visitation monitors
* Animal control officers or humane society officers
* Clergy members, which includes priests, ministers, rabbis, religious practitioners, or similar functionary of a church, temple, or recognized denomination or organization
* Any custodian of records of a clergy member
* Employees of any police department, county sheriff's department, county probation department, or county welfare department
* Employees or volunteers of Court Appointed Special Advocate programs "

[Winter wind]

Quote by: zeebadee I believe I was responding to tivodan, since I was quoting him with my post. As for court rulings:

fair enough. However, the law doesn't seem to extend to illegal immigration, right?

[jose]

The Mexican Consulate's office in Dallas is seeing increasing numbers of Mexican nationals requesting paperwork to go home for good, especially parents who want to know what documentation they'll need to enroll their children in Mexican schools. "Those numbers have increased percentage-wise tremendously,"

FOXNews.com - Illegal Immigrants Returning to Mexico in Record Numbers - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
While hardly Rats, they do appear to be abandoning the sinking ship
What happens if Americans start looking for work in Mexico?

[Zeebadee]

Gee whiz, mexico actually having to pay some social costs for it's own citizens. What is this world coming to??

[ironeagle]

Quote by: Winter wind I have never heard of this. Nixon proposed this idea, but I've never heard of prisoners paying for their jail time. Could you post a link which backs up this statement. (it might just be because I'm from Hong Kong...but still...) "Disclosure of medical records to third parties is prohibited without written consent of the patient. Medical records may be compelled by court order or by an administrative agency. Cal. Civil Code 56." So unless the doctor is given a court order, the doctor isn't allowed to divulge private information. And I can't speak for the DHS, but I think they must be under the same set of laws. It's considered a medical association, no? And you still haven't told me how you are stopping the immigrants from entering. I already told you what it would take to mobilize the army to do something like that, so what do you propose? The rest is what happens when they make it inside, so that's superfluous. How do you stop them from coming in?

I would have to dig for the law, so I am not bothering, but I can tell you here in Iowa if you have been convicted you pay for each day you are in jail or prison, it is $50.00 a day. A doctor does not need a court order to turn a patient in for a criminal act nor does he need to do so to tell the authorities they are a danger to themselves or someone else, ie if they have commited a crime the doctor is obligated to report it not give the agency medical records.

[ironeagle]

We all know how to stop illegal immigration, we just aren't being tough enough as a whole to do it.

[Matt W]

Quote by: ironeagle I would have to dig for the law, so I am not bothering, but I can tell you here in Iowa if you have been convicted you pay for each day you are in jail or prison, it is $50.00 a day. A doctor does not need a court order to turn a patient in for a criminal act nor does he need to do so to tell the authorities they are a danger to themselves or someone else, ie if they have commited a crime the doctor is obligated to report it not give the agency medical records.

Proof. Source it.