A special debate on the superiority of the "Western" world?

[RealRockingham]

I would like to challenge someone to a debate regarding the common belief that the "Western" world is somehow superior to the non-Western world as a whole. Of course, first we need to define the extent of the Western world.....

I am interested in taking the side of opposing the belief that the "Western" world is superior.

Is anyone else interesting in taking the other side?

Thanks.

[Simonius]

Quote by: RealRockingham I would like to challenge someone to a debate regarding the common belief that the "Western" world is somehow superior to the non-Western world as a whole. Of course, first we need to define the extent of the Western world..... I am interested in taking the side of opposing the belief that the "Western" world is superior. Is anyone else interesting in taking the other side? Thanks.

Oh what the hell... I am up for it, I'll happily argue that the western world is superior to the other bit! But for now I must go, should be back online in nine or ten hours.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: RealRockingham I would like to challenge someone to a debate regarding the common belief that the "Western" world is somehow superior to the non-Western world as a whole. Of course, first we need to define the extent of the Western world..... I am interested in taking the side of opposing the belief that the "Western" world is superior. Is anyone else interesting in taking the other side? Thanks.

That is very simple :-)

"West" : The Heart
"East" (and Others) : rest of the Body
Since the Heart is main organism, then "West" is the "Best"
:-)))

[Jack]

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[RealRockingham]

OK, I shall create the said thread tommorow. Anyone who wants to debate me apart from Simonius, register before then. I will have no more then 2 opponents(Simonius, and the applicant with the highest post count that volunteers).

In regards to terminology-

It seems to be the most common consensus among academia that the Western world applies to the Protestant/Catholic areas of Europe, plus EU, the Americas,Australia and NZ.\

Also, the debate is about how the Western world stands up to the rest currently- so the fact that, say, Japan is westernized to some extent is NOT a counter-argument. Japan is as modernized as the US, but not seen as Western- thus, we must recognize that Westernized and modernized are not synonomous(or accept Japan as part of the Western world).concerned.

So, if Simonius would agree, shall we recognize jointly that the terms westernized and modernized are not synonomous, and that "westernized" refers only to traits of Western nations that are distinct from modernizational traits? Frex, "Japan is a modernized but not Westernized nation" is a statement we can agree upon?

As to defining the what the Western word encompasses-
I'd say this, less South Africa and Israel, would you agree?
Image:Westerncultures map.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Kamehameha34]

The word you should work hardest at defining is "superior."

[grandpa]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 The word you should work hardest at defining is "superior."

I'm reading a history book now. The author always refers to Africa, the Middle and Far East as "backwards." Some people never notice such things, I think. We just constantly hear that "we" are superior and "they" are inferior.

Grandpa h.

[RealRockingham]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 The word you should work hardest at defining is "superior."

That will be a large part of my arguement actually- that the West is superior only from a Western perspective, and their is no real superiority or inferiority, simply opinions.

[RealRockingham]

Quote by: grandpa I'm reading a history book now. The author always refers to Africa, the Middle and Far East as "backwards." Some people never notice such things, I think. We just constantly hear that "we" are superior and "they" are inferior. Grandpa h.

Only from like 1700/1800 to1880 would that really be so(backwardness)....

China was quite economically superior to all other states until around 1800(when surpassed by GB), though in political and military terms it was behind way before then.

Japan caught up with the West with ease in 20 or so years.

The Middle East and North Africa were flourishing through their entire history until the trade routes were redirected around Africa by Portugal, and their currency was simultaneously devalued by the influx of American gold from Spains colonies.... and even for 300 years after that, the greatest Islamic state, the Ottoman empire, could go toe to toe and normally beat Russia or Austria mano e mano.... this was as an economic backwater, imagine what the Turks would have accomplished if they had maintained dominance of the Indian and Chinese trade routes...

Its sad but true, though, that if you stand up for Islam, or the Asian cultures, you get socially lambasted.... as a student, I hear such intelligent comments as "they hate us cos were rich and their poor"

[grandpa]

Quote by: RealRockingham Only from like 1700/1800 to1880 would that really be so(backwardness).... China was quite economically superior to all other states until around 1800(when surpassed by GB), though in political and military terms it was behind way before then.

But calling a whole region of the world "backwards" seems both futile and pompous. Futile because all regions are "backwards" in one way or another -- and pompous for that same reason.

It's also in the eye of the beholder. One might call a region without prohibition "backwards," or one might think prohibition is.

Grandpa h.

[RealRockingham]

Quote by: grandpa But calling a whole region of the world "backwards" seems both futile and pompous. Futile because all regions are "backwards" in one way or another -- and pompous for that same reason. It's also in the eye of the beholder. One might call a region without prohibition "backwards," or one might think prohibition is. Grandpa h.

Yes, I was generalizing hugely, I admit.... but generalization is often the best way to get a...general....point across.

[Simonius]

Quote by: RealRockingham OK, I shall create the said thread tommorow. Anyone who wants to debate me apart from Simonius, register before then. I will have no more then 2 opponents(Simonius, and the applicant with the highest post count that volunteers). In regards to terminology- It seems to be the most common consensus among academia that the Western world applies to the Protestant/Catholic areas of Europe, plus EU, the Americas,Australia and NZ.\ Also, the debate is about how the Western world stands up to the rest currently- so the fact that, say, Japan is westernized to some extent is NOT a counter-argument. Japan is as modernized as the US, but not seen as Western- thus, we must recognize that Westernized and modernized are not synonomous(or accept Japan as part of the Western world).concerned. So, if Simonius would agree, shall we recognize jointly that the terms westernized and modernized are not synonomous, and that "westernized" refers only to traits of Western nations that are distinct from modernizational traits? Frex, "Japan is a modernized but not Westernized nation" is a statement we can agree upon? As to defining the what the Western word encompasses- I'd say this, less South Africa and Israel, would you agree? Image:Westerncultures map.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am willing to accept that as a basic defintion of 'western', but I think I would prefer a little more clarification, perhaps recognising it as those nations with a Christian european heritage/origin and the embracing of liberalism, democracy and consumerism.

I am prepared to accept that 'western' and 'modernised' are not neccesarily synonomous, though I do feel that all modernised nations are to an extent westernised, and I will likely argue that Japan is a western nation but the argument will not be based on the fact that it is modernised.

I would define the western world as being North and South america, Most of Europe, possibility south Africa, Australia and maybe odd exceptions such as Japan and Singapore.

[Simonius]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 The word you should work hardest at defining is "superior."

That which is deemed greater in a qualitive assessment?

[Simonius]

Quote by: RealRockingham That will be a large part of my arguement actually- that the West is superior only from a Western perspective, and their is no real superiority or inferiority, simply opinions.

And I will do my best to argue that the west is superior not only according to western values but also to the majority of value systems in the world as well as other things.

Basically I think I have the easy job, in fact it seems so easy I should actually be quite worried!

[Simonius]

Quote by: grandpa But calling a whole region of the world "backwards" seems both futile and pompous. Futile because all regions are "backwards" in one way or another -- and pompous for that same reason. It's also in the eye of the beholder. One might call a region without prohibition "backwards," or one might think prohibition is. Grandpa h.

Well I will tell you what I wont call any region of the world backwards, I will just stress that the west is more advanced, and furthermore I intend to do so with 'grand' principles. Well I'll give it a go.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: grandpa I'm reading a history book now. The author always refers to Africa, the Middle and Far East as "backwards." Some people never notice such things, I think. We just constantly hear that "we" are superior and "they" are inferior. Grandpa h.

Depends what time period you're talking about. If it's the 19th century, a point can be made, if it's any other time in human history, the west is just as if not more likely to be backwards.

[RealRockingham]

Quote by: Simonius And I will do my best to argue that the west is superior not only according to western values but also to the majority of value systems in the world as well as other things. Basically I think I have the easy job, in fact it seems so easy I should actually be quite worried!

Being superior and having some superior and some inferior qualities are 2 different things.

Quote by: Simonius That which is deemed greater in a qualitive assessment?

Oh yes, but deemed greater by who? Who has the right to make that judgement, and on what principles should it be made?

Quote by: Simonius 1)I am willing to accept that as a basic defintion of 'western', but I think I would prefer a little more clarification, perhaps recognising it as those nations with a Christian european heritage/origin and the embracing of liberalism, democracy and consumerism. 2)I am prepared to accept that 'western' and 'modernised' are not neccesarily synonomous, though I do feel that all modernised nations are to an extent westernised, and I will likely argue that Japan is a western nation but the argument will not be based on the fact that it is modernised. 3)I would define the western world as being North and South america, Most of Europe, possibility south Africa, Australia and maybe odd exceptions such as Japan and Singapore.

1)Liberalism? Well, for most of the West's history, it hasn't factored.
Democracy? Ditto.
Consumerism? Perhaps.

2)No, those aspects of "Westernization" in states like Japan are merely aspects of modernization that are commonly but wrongly recognized as being Western in character.

In regards to Japan... oh, just great, I spent a good part of yesterday proposing that Japan is Western, finally give up on the notion, and now find someone who thinks it IS

3)Now your just trying to grab all the good bits...

Singapore is Western? WTF, its Sinic in nature, majority Chinese...

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Depends what time period you're talking about. If it's the 19th century, a point can be made.

And even then it falls on is face because of Japan.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Japan was still mostly behind for most of the century, though by the end it was certainly the model for the most backwards nation completely modernizing and beating up an arrogant european power. (though Russia's been almost permanently backwards until Stalin forced it to modernized, so it wasn't that great)

[Simonius]

Quote by: RealRockingham Being superior and having some superior and some inferior qualities are 2 different things.

I know that, not sure what that was in response to.

Quote by: RealRockingham Oh yes, but deemed greater by who? Who has the right to make that judgement, and on what principles should it be made?

Well that really is the crux of my job, all I will say is you, you and yours... I intend to show you and pretty everyone else that the west is simply better.

Quote by: RealRockingham 1)Liberalism? Well, for most of the West's history, it hasn't factored. Democracy? Ditto. Consumerism? Perhaps.

Well liberalism is the foundation of modern western civilisation, same for the other two as well. I intend to show you what these have given you, why you would never part with them, and show you that those who do not have them want them. This proving the superiority of the west.

Quote by: RealRockingham 2)No, those aspects of "Westernization" in states like Japan are merely aspects of modernization that are commonly but wrongly recognized as being Western in character. In regards to Japan... oh, just great, I spent a good part of yesterday proposing that Japan is Western, finally give up on the notion, and now find someone who thinks it IS 3)Now your just trying to grab all the good bits... Singapore is Western? WTF, its Sinic in nature, majority Chinese... And even then it falls on is face because of Japan.

I think if this debate is to ever get started I may have to drop those countries, or at least we could come to the mutual agreement that they may be a hyrbid between the two.

Of course we could always change the argument to being about the superiority of white civilisation, a bit more controversial but I can still use most of the same arguments.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: RealRockingham That will be a large part of my arguement actually- that the West is superior only from a Western perspective, and their is no real superiority or inferiority, simply opinions.

Then there can be no resolution. In the mind of your opponent, Western society will always be superior. Since it is an opinion, you can't prove to them otherwise.

That's the kind of situation that the old addage "agree to disagree" was invented to prevent.