Contact with Spirits, Deamons, Ghosts, Etc.

[davedes]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary You're the one who has to prove that something unknown to science exists.

This is such a ridiculous attitude.

How do you expect a layman to prove anything if you do not provide them with the scientific method? No matter how much proof they offer you, it will always be cast down as anecdotal, uncontrolled, literally incredible and ultimately unscientific, and therefore you will continue to ask for more proof.

It's a vicious cycle, and it will continue until mainstream science finally decides to study this phenomenon.

PS: For the record, credible scientific evidence does exist to support many so-called "paranormal" claims, such as telepathy, psychokinesis and ESP.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I am no scientist either, and until it is proven by science I cannot accept what you say as truth, especially when I see perfectly logical explanations.

[Radarlove]

Maryjane,

"Typically lucid dreams or OBE's occur under situations of extreme duress."

This comment shows that your grasp of OOBEs (out of body experiences) is somewhat lacking. As for lucid dreams being caused by extreme duress... I have no idea what you mean.

There are two distinct types of OOBE. The NDE (near death experience) and the non-NDE OOBE.

I accept that the NDE usually occurs under physical duress. That it is a way of helping the consciousness deal with an extremely traumatic and painful condition or... is a natural occurrence when the physical body "dies".

So, the heart stops beating - an NDE occurs. The person describes leaving their physical body and hovering above it; they feel calm and experience no pain. The heart starts beating again and this same person describes their consciousness re-entering the physical body. Common situations being medical operations; car accidents; heart attacks; and general severe accidents or ill-health. The person has no control over their NDE.

OOBES, on the other hand are different. They can occur spontaneously, usually under no duress, or... can be consciously induced.

Let us focus on this second scenario. As I write, there are literally thousands of people around the world who are able to induce an OOBE at will, given the correct conditions. This has nothing to do with, "occur under situations of extreme duress."

As an example, there is the American 'Monroe Institute' where you can study how to induce and experience an OOBE.

The Monroe Institute

The methods used are relaxation techniques. To change your state of consciousness, deep relaxation is, perhaps, the most common form. The Eastern yogis, meditation and yoga practices... these ways have been used for centuries to induce non-drug-related other states of consciousness.

Then there is the spontaneous OOBE. You are lying in bed going to sleep and the next instant you are looking down at yourself. You are so enthralled by the beauty of nature as you sit upon a hill at sunset, that you find yourself out of your body.

Then there is the physical safety valve. My mother, when she gave birth to me and my two brothers - each time the pain of giving birth reached its climax, she found herself out of her body and looking down at the birth procedure. She wasn't dying. This was simply a way of dealing with the extreme pain because out of your physical body, you feel calm and are at peace.

Going back to the induced OOBE, you have complete control over this. If interested in learning more about the topic then a quick Amazon book search for a) Robert Monroe b) Bruce Moen will tender 8 books on the subject. There are also a variety of other published books.

[davedes]

I am no scientist either, and until it is proven by science I cannot accept what you say as truth, especially when I see perfectly logical explanations.

My claim is that these experiences do happen, and that they are vastly different from the dreams and hallucinations that science is currently familiar with. That alone should warrant enough reason to study it openly -- yet it's virtually ignored, sometimes even suppressed, by mainstream science.

Claiming they are mere hallucinations does not explain what causes them, why some persons have them more often than others, why they seem to appear more frequently in childhood, why there are so many similarities and recurring patterns between cultures, what the experiences represent (if anything) and how they can be used benefitially (eg. possible therapeutic value). Little is known about the answers to these questions, among others.

When one explores deeper into the out-of-body/phasing state, traveling futher than the limits of their physical body's surroundings, things begin to get very weird. Contact with so-called "spirits" is common, although it almost always follows the pattern of telepathic communication. Interestingly, individuals claim they can discern between the apparent beings and spirits, and often the 'same' beings are reported helping them throughout different experiences. Another common feature is, as Radarlove described, the apparent "merging" with another life/consciousness. The most perplexing reports are those of veridical information gained, such as seeing something as it happens outside of your physical sensory perception.

I suppose you could argue that these reports are all lies, delusions and useless hallucinations, but considering the sheer number of such reports, that in itself seems slightly illogical. A more likely explanation may be that the "spirits" and beings are part of our subconscious. However, that does little to explain the reports of veridical information.

I'm not claiming that "paranormal" activity (such as veridical perception) is true, I'm simply suggesting we study it further to gain more knowledge as to what is happening.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I suppose you could argue that these reports are all lies, delusions and useless hallucinations, but considering the sheer number of such reports, that in itself seems slightly illogical.

Not at all, I consider far more people than those who claim to have these experiences liars or delusional (not necessarily an insult to those who beleive they have had these experiences, just saying it's not illogical at all.) It is certainly unfortunate that science can be self blinding to these things, but it is almost impossible to study and, if it is truly supernatural, beyond science anyway.

[davedes]

Not at all, I consider far more people than those who claim to have these experiences liars or delusional

Millions of people across cultures and throughout history have reported the out-of-body phenomenon. Saying that the vast majority of these people are lying and deluded seems rather illogical to me. Perhaps you have reasoning for your claim?

It is certainly unfortunate that science can be self blinding to these things, but it is almost impossible to study

How are these experiences almost impossible to study? They can be induced through the use of certain drugs (eg. ketamine), relaxation techniques and/or binaural beats. Experienced OBErs report having near-daily projections.

I would say something like subjective tinnitus is far more difficult to study, yet it still tends to be well-received and even studied by mainstream science.

if it is truly supernatural, beyond science anyway.

Original reports of sleep paralysis, hypnagogia, etc. included supernatural undertones (and in some cases still do). Yet science eventually did study these topics, and have come to much more natural, logical and rational explanations for them. Eventually the public's paranormal explanations dissappeared.

I suspect it would be the same for "psi" abilities and veridical OBEs. If they are to exist, science will eventually be able to explain them naturally and rationally.

[Maryjane]

Q) What is it about pseudo sciencetist and religions folks?
A) They both have a negative attitude to skepticism.

This comment shows that your grasp of OOBEs (out of body experiences) is somewhat lacking.

Yup. I detect attitude.

A

s for lucid dreams being caused by extreme duress... I have no idea what you mean.

You had studied this for 25 years? Apparently you missed talking to people who lost loved ones. They have lucid dreams all the time. I've had a few myself. As much as I'd like to believe they are spirits communicating, they are not. I suspected my husband death was not caused by his illness. I felt a lot of guilt about leaving him alone against my better judgement. I had a very lucid dream he came to me asking why he had to die. I could have sworn he was real. What woke me was tears and uncontrollable sobbing. It wasn't until a month later I found out from the ER nurse that his death was an accidental over dose. I knew I should have stayed with him but I didn't want to face the guilt so I dreamed him up. It would be so soothing to know he wasn't upset with me but I've learned to deal with the emotion of regret instead of guilt. Now I don't have those kinds of dreams anymore. That's my anecdotal experience....

There are two distinct types of OOBE. The NDE (near death experience) and the non-NDE OOBE.

I questioned the afterlife and researched as much as I could find about it. No one would like to believe more than I .I poured over a lot of this stuff when I was first widowed. You aren't telling me anything I haven't already heard. Why do I dismiss it? Because I've critically thought about it. It has nothing to do with my being an atheist.

I accept that the NDE usually occurs under physical duress. That it is a way of helping the consciousness deal with an extremely traumatic and painful condition or... is a natural occurrence when the physical body "dies". So, the heart stops beating - an NDE occurs. The person describes leaving their physical body and hovering above it; they feel calm and experience no pain.

That is the BRAIN's way of dealing with it. Let's look to science for a moment. You do know what the heart's function is right? It pumps oxygen to all the cells in the body. A lack of oxygenated blood to the brain is called cerebral hypoxia.

What is Cerebral Hypoxia? Cerebral hypoxia refers to a condition in which there is a decrease of oxygen supply to the brain even though there is adequate blood flow. Drowning, strangling, choking, suffocation, cardiac arrest, head trauma, carbon monoxide poisoning, and complications of general anesthesia can create conditions that can lead to cerebral hypoxia. Symptoms of mild cerebral hypoxia include inattentiveness, poor judgment, memory loss, and a decrease in motor coordination. Brain cells are extremely sensitive to oxygen deprivation and can begin to die within five minutes after oxygen supply has been cut off. When hypoxia lasts for longer periods of time, it can cause coma, seizures, and even brain death. In brain death, there is no measurable activity in the brain, although cardiovascular function is preserved. Life support is required for respiration. Is there any treatment? Treatment depends on the underlying cause of the hypoxia, but basic life-support systems have to be put in place: mechanical ventilation to secure the airway; fluids, blood products, or medications to support blood pressure and heart rate; and medications to suppress seizures. What is the prognosis? Recovery depends on how long the brain has been deprived of oxygen and how much brain damage has occurred, although carbon monoxide poisoning can cause brain damage days to weeks after the event. Most people who make a full recovery have only been briefly unconscious. The longer someone is unconscious, the higher the chances of death or brain death and the lower the chances of a meaningful recovery. During recovery, psychological and neurological abnormalities such as amnesia, personality regression, hallucinations, memory loss, and muscle spasms and twitches may appear, persist, and then resolve.

The heart starts beating again and this same person describes their consciousness re-entering the physical body. Common situations being medical operations; car accidents; heart attacks; and general severe accidents or ill-health. The person has no control over their NDE.

Near death experiences can be explained. They are the chemicals in your body going haywire and the lack of oxygen. You'd be surprised how a minute drop in body chemistry can set the entire system out of wack. Of course they have no control. It's like when some people have blood drawn and they pass out. As much as they want to stay awake, their mind has other ideas.

OOBES, on the other hand are different. They can occur spontaneously, usually under no duress, or... can be consciously induced.

Just as you said usually, I said typically. Pardon me, but I was speaking about the anecdotal evidence being given in the thread. I'll be happy to give other examples of the second situation... the one you are speaking about now.

Ever drive a vehicle, get to a destination only to wonder, How did I get here? (that damn brain of yours going off on it's own again!)
Again, mind over matter.

Then there is the physical safety valve. My mother, when she gave birth to me and my two brothers - each time the pain of giving birth reached its climax, she found herself out of her body and looking down at the birth procedure. She wasn't dying. This was simply a way of dealing with the extreme pain because out of your physical body, you feel calm and are at peace.

More anecdotals...Contractions wax and wane. Deep breathing exercises accomplish the same thing. Your mind is concentrating on the breathing and not the pain. BTW..that was a duress situation.


Are you going to introduce something new? I thought this thread was about spirits, ghosts, and demons?

Cerebral Hypoxia Information Page: National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS)

[davedes]

Quote by: Maryjane Q) What is it about pseudo sciencetist and religions folks? A) They both have a negative attitude to skepticism.

Is this to me? If so, I agree, we have to step carefully around anecdotal reports. But to toss them all away on the assumption that people are lying just seems a bit daft to me.

That is the BRAIN's way of dealing with it. Let's look to science for a moment. You do know what the heart's function is right? It pumps oxygen to all the cells in the body. A lack of oxygenated blood to the brain is called cerebral hypoxia.

I don't agree with Radarlove's claim that NDEs start when the heart stops, but I also don't agree with the claim that NDEs are purely a cause of cerebral hypoxia. Too many cases of NDEs that don't include any sort of lack of oxygen strike me as the primary reason for this doubt.

From the studies I've seen (van Lommel comes to mind, among others), as well as the ever-dangerous anecdotal reports, NDEs seem to occur in a wide range of situations. Somebody falls and hits their head, somebody is on a drug and has the feeling they are dying, etc.

I've mentioned it before... I see NDEs as a trigger to the out-of-body state. In some cases a 'final' out-of-body state, one that may or may not continue after the irreversible death.

Near death experiences can be explained. They are the chemicals in your body going haywire and the lack of oxygen. You'd be surprised how a minute drop in body chemistry can set the entire system out of wack. Of course they have no control. It's like when some people have blood drawn and they pass out. As much as they want to stay awake, their mind has other ideas.

Here is an interesting paper I stumbled on, by Karl Jansen, that supports the idea of a flood of neurotransmitters and chemical changes.
The Ketamine Model of the Near Death Experience

Interestingly, after further study on the subject, Jansen appended a note to the paper:
'I am no longer as opposed to spritual explanations of these phenomena as this article would appear to suggest. Over the past two years (it is quite some time since I wrote it) I have moved more towards the views put forward by John Lilly and Stan Grof. Namely, that drugs and psychological disciplines such as meditation and yoga may render certain 'states' more accessible. The complication then becomes in defining just what we mean by 'states' and where they are located, if indeed location is an appropriate term at all. But the apparent emphasis on matter over mind contained within this particular article no longer accurately represents my attitudes. My forthcoming book 'Ketamine' will consider mystical issues from quite a different perspective, and will give a much stronger voice to those who see drugs as just another door to a space, and not as actually producing that space'.

I have not read up on Lilly's and Grof's views... I'll check them out tonight, and perhaps try to find out what made Jansen change his perspective.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Piscean Hey Anmon I've had alot of those type of expiriences too so you arent alone. I've had the thing in the room paralyzing me and crushing me. The absolute pressance of evil etc. I know lots of others have these expiriences too so that's psrtly y I started this thread. Thankd for sharing.

No worrys, another one happened a few nights ago, I got the paralysis thing and the usual weird creepy evil dream just before it, then just as I tried to wake up to escape what I knew was coming, then wham the paralysis hit me like a ton of bricks.
I got the sense that something incredibly evil was next to me on the bed watching, I tried my hardest to reach out and grab this thing, to try and get it back, but I couldnt budge a muscle.
When I finally shook the paralysis off, I opened my eyes and in the mirror wardrobe of my reflection was a huge spider moving on my shoulder.
I jumped straight out of bed thinking it was real, and ripped the doona off to locate the spider, but it had vanished.

[Radarlove]

Maryjane,

First, I am confused about who you really are.

By chance, I came across your profile page where a picture of what appears to be a strong, good-looking, muscular man, wearing shorts and T-shirt, as if he has just returned from a strenuous work-out in the gym, is placed under the profile name Maryjane. Is this actually you and you're pretending to be a woman? or is it an image of your husband who has died? Or were you involved in a gay marriage?

"Yup. I detect attitude."

My comment has nothing to do with attitude. I am merely making a subjective point. I could just as easily turn your argument around and state many atheists I meet have a serious attitude about anyone who doesn't agree with them. Offering an opposite opinion is healthy, in my view. Without this, there might not be debates. How boring life would be then.

Apparently you missed talking to people who lost loved ones. They have lucid dreams all the time. I've had a few myself.

I have spoken to many who have lost loved ones. Only a few weeks ago I conversed with a 70 year-old woman who had recently lost her husband. After the funeral and wake, she came back home alone, to find her husband, looking alive and well, sitting on the lounge sofa. They had a 10 minute conversation before he suddenly disappeared. Is this what you mean by a lucid dream?

If so, I would not.

Some might say the woman had a chat with the ghost or spirit of her husband. The atheists might say, the woman was so grief-stricken that the mind had created this imaginary scenario as a sense of comfort and a way of denying his death.

My understanding of a lucid dream is that while asleep, the dream seems so real, you believe it is actually occurring. i.e it is not the mind simply enjoying some mental masturbation of random events.

If, for example, you attended the Monroe Institute and carried out their course, then this vivid experience might be termed an OOBE. That when asleep, your consciousness regularly leaves the physical and moves into other realms of reality - different dimensions of time and space. Here, you meet deceased loved ones etc.. but on waking you have no memory of these experiences. The difference with a lucid dream is, you do.

I was close to my mother and after she died, for some years, I had lucid dreams about being with her in spirit. Sometimes, I would wake up with tears in my eyes too.

Now, it is all down to your beliefs. The atheists might say, this was your mind finding a way of coming to terms with her death. Others might say you were actually with her in spirit whilst asleep and because of the emotional power involved, you remembered the event whilst it was occurring and then afterwards on awaking.

"I poured over a lot of this stuff when I was first widowed. You aren't telling me anything I haven't already heard. Why do I dismiss it? Because I've critically thought about it. It has nothing to do with my being an atheist."

You come over as someone who has genuinely researched this area with some care. And I accept your views may have little to do with atheism although I do note you are a group member of Atheists and Agnostics.

In Britain, we have a well-known former TV news presenter called John Humphreys. He now works on BBC radio. In the twilight of his years, he wanted to research the afterlife and his experiences led to a book, published last September, called In God We Doubt. As the headline screams, He went looking for God and ended up an angry agnostic.

While one part of him wanted to 'believe', another part was unable to after looking at the religious evidence.

In God we doubt -Times Online

My suggestion would be to keep God well and truly out of it. I am not religious and don't accept there is a benevolent God. Like you, I have studied the evidence thoroughly BUT unlike you, come to the opposite conclusion that there is an afterlife - although it has nothing to do with the religious viewpoint. I am happy and comfortable with my own conclusions. There is little more I can say.

[davedes]

Quote by: Radarlove You come over as someone who has genuinely researched this area with some care. And I accept your views may have little to do with atheism although I do note you are a group member of Atheists and Agnostics.

Hey now... I'm an atheist as well. Let's not generalize atheism into something its not.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s). Plenty of atheists are still spiritual.

[Maryjane]

Is this to me? If so, I agree, we have to step carefully around anecdotal reports. But to toss them all away on the assumption that people are lying just seems a bit daft to me.

No davedes,
My reply was directed to Radarlove. didn't say people were lying. I think they honestly want to believe the things they think are real but I think they are misguided.
(of course there are some who could be lying. I'm truely amazed at some people's attention seeking behaviors)

[Simonius]

Quote by: Anmon Also I used to get a lot of feelings of paralysis, this usually happened straight after an incredibly bad dream, and I would wake up but not be able to open my eyes, my whole body was frozen with a great feeling of pressure on it, I could not even breath. It would usually take at most about 20 seconds to shake it off, then I could open my eyes and get up.

I've been getting that every once in while for nearly eleven years, I don't get a bad dream beforehand (at least not one I recall). Sometimes with extreme effort I can move my fingers, I think I may have been able to mutter something not sure. My breathing has always been fine though. I do get the feeling of pressure on part of me, sometimes quite strong. Once it came with the sensation of a green presence entering the room, I had my eyes closed but I had the overwhelming sensation of green, and once I heard a voice telling me to get up. Last time it happened it felt like someone was stroking my back in an affectionate manner! It never used to cause me much concern, I think originally I just assumed it was a strange sort of dream. Apparently it is just some sort of dream or pseudo dream state. You feel like you have woken up, but your natural sleep time paralysis is still in effect and so is your brains capacity to create 'dreams' its an odd quirk thats all nothing to worry about and I believe that. Though I have no objective proof of whether it is a strange malfunction of sleep or a visitation!

The only thing I can't explain is the other phenomana you mention and your experiences when you are apparently awake.

[Anmon]

I believe its an evil spirit, thats attached itself to me, I've had it for along time.

[Simonius]

Quote by: Anmon I believe its an evil spirit, thats attached itself to me, I've had it for along time.

Okay, well I am not really happy with that because our experiences are so similar, similar enough to suspect that they have the same cause though your version of the problem seems worse them mine.

I'd rather believe that it is just a quirk of sleep than an evil spirit, and trying to think back to when it first occured I fail to see why an evil spirit would have attached themselves to me at that time. Unless such things occur at random.

Have you considered going to a sleep specialist and/or exorcist?

[Anmon]

Quote by: Simonius Have you considered going to a sleep specialist and/or exorcist?

I dont have any problem sleeping, most of the time I have a refreshing well rested sleep.
I have identified the problem, it is an evil spirit, I combat it with the power of prayer when it attacks, which usually works instantaneously.
I have thought sometimes of seeing an exorcist.
When I was 15 I went to an evangelist camp for a week, where an exorcism was performed, the woman was being held down by three men and she was roaring at the top of her voice swearing foully, and it didn't sound like a womans voice.

[davedes]

Or... You know... It's just good ol' sleep paralysis.

I recently induced hypnagogia and sleep paralysis. Heard a little girl shout my name, then giggle. Sounded like she was right up in my ear. I couldn't move, not that I had any desire to. It felt like I was being pushed into the bed, almost as if I was going through it.

Nothing overly paranormal about those experiences. I've had many stranger hallucinations than that.

[Anmon]

or... you know... its just an evil spirit.

[Simonius]

Quote by: Anmon I dont have any problem sleeping, most of the time I have a refreshing well rested sleep. I have identified the problem, it is an evil spirit, I combat it with the power of prayer when it attacks, which usually works instantaneously. I have thought sometimes of seeing an exorcist. When I was 15 I went to an evangelist camp for a week, where an exorcism was performed, the woman was being held down by three men and she was roaring at the top of her voice swearing foully, and it didn't sound like a womans voice.

Why is it that you believe this is an evil spirit and not just a natural quirk?

[Simonius]

Quote by: davedes Or... You know... It's just good ol' sleep paralysis. I recently induced hypnagogia and sleep paralysis. Heard a little girl shout my name, then giggle. Sounded like she was right up in my ear. I couldn't move, not that I had any desire to. It felt like I was being pushed into the bed, almost as if I was going through it. Nothing overly paranormal about those experiences. I've had many stranger hallucinations than that.

How do you induce it?