Bill Your Doctor!

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Piscean I'm curious what psychological state you think I share with conspiracy theorists? Granted I will totally admit that vaccines have saved lives. But if I can take responsibility for my own health to the point that I don't need a vaccine because my immune system is so good I am living at a higher level of health than the general public and I'm very fortunate to have the knowledge I do. Would you agree with this or are you gonna throw yer favorite insults ate me (wacky, nutty bla bla I'm immature) ?

No, the term I have for you is a different one: Dangerous.

Look up a concept called "herd immunity" and get back to me.

[loser]

The difference between homeopathic "medicine" and conventional medicine is that the techniques of conventional medicine have been tested and verified as scientifically sound

LMAO, LOL, LOL, LOL

Thanks...I haven't laughed this much in a while. I can't get over how hilarious some of you are even when you're trying to be serious. Has Cyril Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons"'s fictitious future society become a reality so soon (the idea was revisited in the recent movie "Idiocracy")? Good grief...Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life here on this planet.

Talk about brainwashed humanity. If ONE thing has been verified, it's that conventional medicine is the biggest scam to have ever been foisted upon the public. For an eye-opening report, watch PBS's Frontline special "The Medicated Child".

The truth of the matter is that if anyone goes to 'traditional doctors' they need to have their head examined. Doctors are treated like gods when they should be grouped with used car salesmen, lawyers, televangelists, and auto repairmen...and politicians.

Want to get healthy and stay healthy? Stay AWAY from doctors and hospitals!

As a patient, I have the right to medical procedures that are followed with my best interest in mind, not the person in the waiting rooms schedule.

It's not YOUR best interest that the doctor has in mind.

You go ahead and take the synthetic drugs and I'll keep using the herbs that they are synthesized from and we'll see who lives longer. I haven't taken antibiotics for years. Even though I've had the sicknesses that supposedly require them to get over. The result is my own immune system is so much stronger now I hardly ever get sick. The antibiotics wipe out your own immune system so you just keep getting weaker and more dependant on them. Just one of many exampled of the problems with conventional medicine, but if you wanna go all the way down that path and end up on so many prescription drugs your liver finally fails go right ahead, 95% percent of the population is on that plan so at least you are with the majority right lol!

Wait, Scotty, there are a few (very few, indeed!) humans down here for which there is hope.

You don't seem to understand that big money is the power behind the "sound evidence" for conventional medicine, do you think the govt. is honest with you too?

It's the lemming effect. I call it the dumbing down of humanity.

Statistically speaking, I will live longer. That is why lifespans have increased as medical science has gotten better, and have only recently plateaued because our lives are so sedentary we have ill effects from lack of exertion.

You couldn't be more wrong. Your 'facts' are bogus.

I think all forms have their place... and when it comes to Trauma, nothing touches medical.

When you say trauma meaning physical trauma (broken bones, bleeding, burns, etc.) and not psychological trauma, then I concede that traditional hospitals do have some limited use. Beyond that (such as diagnosis and treatment of diseases), buyer beware!

Vaccination is one of the greatest scientific breakthroughs of human existence. Billions of lives have been saved because of it.

Not true. Actually, vaccination will prove to be the almost complete annihilator of human life.

Why is it that anyone who dares to question the great medical gods gets labelled "wacko"... if you read the first link (the wrong one for the vaccination point), you would have read how many deaths in the US are attributed to medical treatment.

Scotty, here's another.

I think some people are threightened by anything that questions what's accepted by the general masses so they lash out with insults and try to push their opinion on those of us who have taken the time to think for ourselves and already know better.

Camaraderie...the comfort of the crowd.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: loser LMAO, LOL, LOL, LOL Thanks...I haven't laughed this much in a while. I can't get over how hilarious some of you are even when you're trying to be serious. Has Cyril Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons"'s fictitious future society become a reality so soon (the idea was revisited in the recent movie "Idiocracy")? Good grief...Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life here on this planet. Talk about brainwashed humanity. If ONE thing has been verified, it's that conventional medicine is the biggest scam to have ever been foisted upon the public. For an eye-opening report, watch PBS's Frontline special "The Medicated Child".

That has been verified? Funny, you don't show where. I suspect that's because your argument is pure anti-establishment nonsense.

But maybe you can "verify" that for me.

I've seen that Frontline special. I also agree that certain diseases and ailments have been over-diagnosed. That does not mean, however, that conventional medicine is a "scam". It means that doctors are human and make mistakes like any other professional.

The truth of the matter is that if anyone goes to 'traditional doctors' they need to have their head examined. Doctors are treated like gods when they should be grouped with used car salesmen, lawyers, televangelists, and auto repairmen...and politicians.

Logical Fallacy: Argument from emotion.

Want to get healthy and stay healthy? Stay AWAY from doctors and hospitals!

I think cancer patients, for example, would disagree with you...

Do you have any proof for your conjecture? Of course not. Moving on...

You couldn't be more wrong. Your 'facts' are bogus.

And yet you offer nothing to disprove them. Should be easy, considering you say I couldn't be "more" wrong. Curious.

When you say trauma meaning physical trauma (broken bones, bleeding, burns, etc.) and not psychological trauma, then I concede that traditional hospitals do have some limited use. Beyond that (such as diagnosis and treatment of diseases), buyer beware!

Because there are not thousands of diseases that have been cured by the work of traditional medical science? Riiiiiiight...

Not true. Actually, vaccination will prove to be the almost complete annihilator of human life.

Yes, we'd be much better with that small pox around!

Oh, wait... any PROOF of that? Of course not. Your arguments are nothing but wacko talking points.

[ParaTed2k]

I'm just wondering if this thread is hijacked beyond hope.

[Piscean]

No, the term I have for you is a different one: Dangerous. Look up a concept called "herd immunity" and get back to me

.

Your damn right I'm dangerous, I'm a self reliant man who can think for himself. A lion is always more dangerous than a sheep, what's your point.

I looked up herd immunity. I just got over strep, bronchitis, and a sinus infection that the doctor said I'd have to take antibiotics for. It was interesting (although nothing new) to watch all the people around me freak out that i wasn't taking my antibiotics. I never even went and got the prescription. My fiance took a chance and did the same and we healed her up too. Her family though she was gonna die because of me. Now she has a better immune system then before because it conquered something strong enough to kill many. I've had many bad sicknesses that the hurd didn't save me from. Maybe I haven't had others because the hurd immunity protected me. That's fine. My point is I'm the one who can survive things you can't because your dependant on the big money medical industry that you defend so poorly. Go ahead and evade my point and call me more names if you like. I'd much rather be in my shoes no matter what you say. You follow establishment and I'll become stronger and stay non-dependant. It's an individual choice that most will never have the knowledge or strength to make.

[Piscean]

Want to get healthy and stay healthy? Stay AWAY from doctors and hospitals! I think cancer patients, for example, would disagree with you... Do you have any proof for your conjecture? Of course not. Moving on...

There are alternative healers who have cured every kind of cancer. The problem is, if they openly state that they have done so, they get put in prison. Big money speaks again. You wont believe it but even HIV has been cured naturally. But the medical industry OWNES peoples health so they don't allow anything outside their methods to be taught period.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Piscean . Your damn right I'm dangerous, I'm a self reliant man who can think for himself. A lion is always more dangerous than a sheep, what's your point.

I'm glad you asked what my point is, because you completely missed it.

Your argument is nothing but typical conspiracy theorist nonsense... "blah blah blah i'm so smart, blah blah anyone who doesn't agree with me is sheeple, blah blah blah I have some secret knowledge of how the world works and you're too dumb to figure it out." It's ridiculous and the fact is you haven't backed up a single word of your argument with anything substantive.

I looked up herd immunity.

Apparently you didn't because your following paragraph has nothing to do with herd immunity.

I just got over strep, bronchitis, and a sinus infection that the doctor said I'd have to take antibiotics for. It was interesting (although nothing new) to watch all the people around me freak out that i wasn't taking my antibiotics. I never even went and got the prescription. My fiance took a chance and did the same and we healed her up too. Her family though she was gonna die because of me.

You got lucky. One anecdote (i.e. your own personal experience) is not evidence of anything other than that.

You're like the person who has one bad experience with an otherwise reliable car and vows never to buy that brand again, even if that brand is statistically the most reliable. It's illogical there and it's illogical here.

Now she has a better immune system then before because it conquered something strong enough to kill many.

Purely your guess.

I've had many bad sicknesses that the hurd didn't save me from. Maybe I haven't had others because the hurd immunity protected me.

Anecdote. Not evidence.

That's fine. My point is I'm the one who can survive things you can't because your dependant on the big money medical industry that you defend so poorly.

How do you know? Do you have any scientific research to show this? Of course you don't.

Go ahead and evade my point and call me more names if you like. I'd much rather be in my shoes no matter what you say. You follow establishment and I'll become stronger and stay non-dependant. It's an individual choice that most will never have the knowledge or strength to make.

Your ridiculous insistence that you are somehow "stronger" than me, despite having absolutely ZERO proof of such, is a personal insult and will stop here.

Quote by: Piscean There are alternative healers who have cured every kind of cancer.

Utter bullsh*t. You are either credulous to false information or a liar.
Evidence? I didn't think so.

The problem is, if they openly state that they have done so, they get put in prison. Big money speaks again.

Heretic fallacy.

You wont believe it but even HIV has been cured naturally.

More bullsh*t. Again, either you are lying or you have been duped.

But the medical industry OWNES peoples health so they don't allow anything outside their methods to be taught period.

This is such a ridiculous accusation. If there is a cure out there for some previously incurable disease, and they can package that cure and sell it, what the hell do they care what it is made out of? Frankly, their profit motivation is to find natural cures for things, since herbs are a hell of a lot cheaper than what they currently come up with.

Your accusation that medical establishments are "covering up" effective treatments is utter nonsense, as the medical establishment could make as much if not more dispensing such treatments.


The two of you have not provided one whit of support for your arguments. I expect there to be something in your next posts to support your arguments besides worthless anecdotes. Otherwise, you're merely trolling and there is no point in continuing.

[Domino]

Your accusation that medical establishments are "covering up" effective treatments is utter nonsense, as the medical establishment could make as much if not more dispensing such treatments.

I read an article about one, though I don't recall the name of the chemical. There's some substance that shows remarkable anti-cancer substances, but it's such a simple, common molecule that no one can patent it, and therefore no one is willing to put up the millions of dollars required to getting it through the FDA.

I can imagine the same argument would apply to any common herb that proved effective. If it sells for the price of lettuce, it'll never pay for the research necessary to get federal approval.

Of course, that lack of research seems to be the core of your complaints. Even when research shows strong statistical correlation, the FDA won't approve until you can prove the chain of causality from medication to cure. There may be some simple herb that'll cure HIV every time, but if you can't explain why, it'll never be approved, and we'll never find out.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Domino I read an article about one, though I don't recall the name of the chemical. There's some substance that shows remarkable anti-cancer substances, but it's such a simple, common molecule that no one can patent it, and therefore no one is willing to put up the millions of dollars required to getting it through the FDA.

This is not evidence. This is hearsay - you "read an article" about some unknown substance that cures cancer. Of course, this is how herbal "treatments" make their rounds - someone recalls reading an article or "hearing" from a friend that a certain homeopathic remedy does a certain thing, and the rumors spread regardless of the voracity of the claim.

I can imagine the same argument would apply to any common herb that proved effective. If it sells for the price of lettuce, it'll never pay for the research necessary to get federal approval.

If they are that "common", they would have already been found to be effective and the effects would be widely known and accepted.

The problem with your argument is that it depends on EVERY doctor and medical scientist in the world being in on a massive conspiracy that costs thousands if not millions of lives each year while at the same time costing them huge amounts of income (because if a patient dies due to a cure being withheld, their need for medical services immediately drops, shall we say, significantly). Impossible.

Of course, that lack of research seems to be the core of your complaints. Even when research shows strong statistical correlation, the FDA won't approve until you can prove the chain of causality from medication to cure. There may be some simple herb that'll cure HIV every time, but if you can't explain why, it'll never be approved, and we'll never find out.

This argument is, of course, a non-starter.

As you are obviously unaware, "herbal" treatments need not be approved by the FDA. Therefore, the fact that an "herbal" treatment might not sell for enough money to make FDA approval financially lucrative is irrelevant. If there was an herbal treatment that truly showed causation (not just correlation) of curing a disease, a company could simply publish the study right next to an ad that says "oh by the way, we sell this exact formulation right here" and hand out the study/ad to doctors.

If the herbal formula was novel enough, a patent could be garnered.

[Domino]

This is not evidence. This is hearsay - you "read an article" about some unknown substance that cures cancer.

You are correct, that was hearsay. However, it was not hearsay from my uncle's brother's cousin, or anything like that, it was hearsay from me, because I read the article. If you'd like to just flat-out call me a liar, you can win this debate right here. Or, you could suppose that I'm not a fucking moron, that I am, in fact, arguing in good faith, from an unbiased position, and that I mention the article only because it contradicted your claims, that it provided some insight that was useful for this discussion, not because I'm trying to appeal to authority, as if it could somehow matter, to me, how this argument turns out.

If you can't do that, I'll be happy to back right out of this thread and let you enjoy your little rant. This discussion is, in no way, worth contending with someone who has already decided the truth, and is just looking for a way to discredit anything that can't be fit into that cookie-cutter of truth.

So, I'll start with what you called a "non-starter", since it is, in fact, the best place to start.

As you are obviously unaware, "herbal" treatments need not be approved by the FDA. Therefore, the fact that an "herbal" treatment might not sell for enough money to make FDA approval financially lucrative is irrelevant. If there was an herbal treatment that truly showed causation (not just correlation) of curing a disease, a company could simply publish the study right next to an ad that says "oh by the way, we sell this exact formulation right here" and hand out the study/ad to doctors.

An herbal remedy need not be approved to be sold, but it does need to be approved before the sellers can make any claim of effectiveness. The study required for approval costs a whole lot of money. It is a major investment, one of the main reasons pharmaceutical companies need so much money, and no one will make an investment like that when there is no hope of a return. If the study finds that the latest and greatest thing is growing in your yard, that investment will never pay off. The drug industry only studies things with which it can earn a profit. Without those studies, the claim of causation on which you seem to depend can never be made. Nothing you can chew straight from your yard will ever be thoroughly studied, no matter how good its rate of correlation.

The problem with your argument is that it depends on EVERY doctor and medical scientist in the world being in on a massive conspiracy that costs thousands if not millions of lives each year while at the same time costing them huge amounts of income (because if a patient dies due to a cure being withheld, their need for medical services immediately drops, shall we say, significantly). Impossible.

The conspiracy is institutionalized, and is in no way secret. It's called "the scientific method", and it's drilled into them from medical school: if you can't show causation, you can't use it. Causation is, by no means, an easy thing to show. Even major pharmaceutical companies with a new miracle drug get tripped by the requirement. They could make something that'll cause limbs to regrow, but if they can't show how it happens, they can never use it, no matter how stunningly obvious the results are.

So...

If they are that "common", they would have already been found to be effective and the effects would be widely known and accepted.

As you might expect, the average medical student is ignorant of the various old wives' remedies that have been used for a thousand years. Of course, old wives can't give you anything but anecdotes, at which the average med student will scoff. No one who could give this information is a credible source, and they never will be, until those costly studies are done. Sadly, old wives and witchdoctors can't afford them, and will thus remain forever illegitimate.

Civilization has had a thriving medical community for thousands of years which, while often wrong, still managed to get a lot of good done. Now that we have the scientific method, and the instruments with which to exercise it, our inherited medical practices must be vetted through the process. That is, by no means, a bad thing, but letting it be done by corporations that demand profit is not the fastest, most efficient approach, and to assume that those corporations have anything but their own interests at heart is to ignore the basis of incorporation: providing money to the shareholders.

If the herbal formula was novel enough, a patent could be garnered.

A patent does not promise profit.

[Piscean]

The two of you have not provided one whit of support for your arguments. I expect there to be something in your next posts to support your arguments besides worthless anecdotes. Otherwise, you're merely trolling and there is no point in continuing.

I have provided some studies and links to back myself up and you have provided nothing but insults and opinions. I'm curious how old are you?

[Piscean]

Utter bullsh*t. You are either credulous to false information or a liar. Evidence? I didn't think so.

Wow another angry insulting opinion!

[Piscean]

More bullsh*t. Again, either you are lying or you have been duped.

Ahh more of the same, and your "evidence" is where?

[Piscean]

Your ridiculous insistence that you are somehow "stronger" than me, despite having absolutely ZERO proof of such, is a personal insult and will stop here.

OOH it will, will it? If you read the scientific liturature on the way the immune system works you'll sonn find that every sickness your body beats causes it to build more immune factors, survival of the fittest, it's not even complicated to understand but I'm not going to waste my time trying to educate someone as angry and unwilling to learn as yourself, I've tried before, it's pointless.

[Piscean]

Your argument is nothing but typical conspiracy theorist nonsense... "blah blah blah i'm so smart, blah blah anyone who doesn't agree with me is sheeple, blah blah blah I have some secret knowledge of how the world works and you're too dumb to figure it out." It's ridiculous and the fact is you haven't backed up a single word of your argument with anything substantive.

You are the one who hasn't backed up the immature insults with anything other than more anger and frustrated attempts to insult me, namecalling doesn't count for credible proof. But your starting to make me laugh so keep ammusing me with your frustration, I can use a good laugh every day.

[Piscean]

Your damn right I'm dangerous, I'm a self reliant man who can think for himself. A lion is always more dangerous than a sheep, what's your point. I'm glad you asked what my point is, because you completely missed it.

My question about your point was in refferance to you calling me dangerous. Nice try though.

I read about herd immunity and it's very easy to understand. It implies that I've been protected from disease by everyone around me taking their vaccinations and antibiotics etc. so that the disease is practically eliminated and therefore I'm protected. I'm sure there is truth to this, that I don't deny. But personally when I do get sick, I will cure myself without antibiotics, which are proven to weaken the immune system. I'm just not dependant on something that most are and you seem to hate me for it which I find ammusing.

[Piscean]

Your accusation that medical establishments are "covering up" effective treatments is utter nonsense, as the medical establishment could make as much if not more dispensing such treatments.

I really shouldn't have to explain this to you but I'm trying to be patient and give you a chance here. Think about it. What would happen to the profits of the medical industry if suddenly the public had the knowledge to heal themselves with herbs that they can grow it their back yard instead of buying the drugs the doctor sells. It's really simple man just think about it!

[Piscean]

You got lucky. One anecdote (i.e. your own personal experience) is not evidence of anything other than that.

So far everyone in my life who has given the natural remedies I share with them a chance, has "gotten lucky" and healed without resorting to antibiotics.So my luck is at %100. I must be the luckiest guy alive. Or maybe my countless hours of research have paid off in the knowledge they've given me to heal myself and others. Also live at a higher level of health than the general public. The sad thing is, as with all natural healers I would love to help more people experience this health I'm talking about but instead of a willingness to experience something better, 95% of the time I get hate stemming from ignorance and I'm not sure what else.

[ParaTed2k]

Quote by: tivodan1116 The two things are a non-sequitur. Opposing vaccinations because of some nutty conspiracy (one of the most popular is that they cause autism) is vastly different than understanding that medical professionals make mistakes... I understand doctors aren't perfect. That is a far cry, however, from calling for people to stop taking vaccines.

Which is why I don't call for people to stop taking vaccines. I do, however, oppose any mandates to being vaccinated.

6,000 kids hospitalized and/or killed by vaccines is a lot. Not in perportion to the number of kids vaccinated, but it enough to show there is a downside to them.

The bottom line is, if you want to be vaccinated, and want to vaccinate your kids, then it is available, so go ahead and do it. If you don't want it though, you shouldn't have to justify your decision to anyone.

[caphis]

Quote by: Domino When you've set an appointment, you expect to be appointed. If I miss the appointment, the doctor bills me for his time.

Um... time to find a new doctor? My doctor doesn't bill me for missing an appointment or being late. Nor would I bill him for the same.

Nor does my doctor "run behind" regularly. His office is staffed with competent folks who schedule his appointments realistically.

I'd say it's time to get a new doctor, not start billing a crappy one.