The supernatural

[Matt W]

Rez, if you're not interested, don't post. It's that simple. Let others enjoy the debate.

[Technosoul]

I don't care if anyone can scientifically test for ghosts or not.

That is not at all important.

The important thing is that people do encounter such things and we cannot help but wonder why.

Here is my ghost story. ( a true story )

My sister was dieing of cancer, which had spread through her whole body, she saw three ghosts, one was our father who had passed away, and two other ladies in red dresses. Who were my mother's sisters, also that had passed away.

My mother was still alive but had lost her memory, and she did not know us anymore by our names.

I was at her bedside as she took her last breath and passed away.

So my brother and I were the last of the family except for my mother who was 95 years old, at an old folks care home.

At the funneal a friend of my mothers came up to me and wanted to tell me something "odd".

She was visiting my mother at the very time my sister died and we told her not to mention it to our mother.

When she walked in the nursing home my mother was alert and said " did you know that (my sisters name) died" Her friend was surprised that she knew that because it was a secret. Her friend asked her "are you ready to let go yet so you can be with her". she said "No, I am waiting for (my name)".

She had not used my name for about a year, due to her lost memory.

I was surprised. Did my sister's spirit pay her a last visit? What was she waiting for me to do?

The next day I paid her a visit. She once more did not know my name.
She looked out the window to look at a crow sitting on an electric wire, pecking at something.

"Look at the bird, he better be careful or we will have to call him home".

"you will call him home?" I continued the conversation"

Mother said as she nodded off to sleep again.

"yes, to the Other".

A few months later she passed away.

The ghostly message was clear. My sister always used to say "take care of your self" when we parted company.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: rez Actually no. It can't study ghosts because ghosts don't actually exist. If they existed then they could be studied.

They do exist metaphysically. How can you study them with physical tools ?? My proof of their existence is people's experiences.

Science tries to understand and explain reality, and if ghosts are infact real then they would be apart of reality and therefore need to be explained. PERIOD.

You mean "Real" in physical sense only...that is your foly. How can you say there is absolutely nothing beyond your physical senses ??

Did a ghost tell you this? Do you hear voices in your head? Where do you get this information from? Do you study ghosts?

Yes I myself turn ghost and keep on interacting with ghosts but in dreams. In dreams everything metaphysical !! I am ghost of myself in dream and all others I see in dream are all in ghost forms. None in anybody's dream are "Physically Real" as you put it.

Thoughts are produced by electric impulses in the brain. Those electric impulses are physical matter and energy.

Nope ! It is mainly reverse, Thoughts produce different type of electric impulse and chemical and bio-chemical reactions in brain.

To be more correct, I would say these are reversible reactions. Thoughts affect electric impulses while electice impulses affect thoughts.

While thoughts themselves, do not physically exist in reality, the mechanisms that control and make them possible do.

Here, I would agree!! I am happy to hear from you that thoughts do not exist physically but since they exist in some form, so must exist meta-physically. Similarly, as thoughts exist, ghosts too exist metaphysically

Q.E.D.

[SoylentGreen]

Kuldeep They do exist metaphysically.

Metaphysics is basically the study of the most fundamental concepts and beliefs.

My proof of their existence is people's experiences

Then all you have is proof that people study fundamental concepts and beliefs.

You mean "Real" in physical sense only...that is your foly. How can you say there is absolutely nothing beyond your physical senses ??

Yes, real in the physical sense.
Otherwise all you have is the meta physical concept of a belief that they could be real.

None in anybody's dream are "Physically Real" as you put it

And that's why when someone says "I saw a ghost" I usually think "Yea right, in your dreams maybe."

[thx1138]

About thirteen years I was living in an old house and witnessed many former (passed) occupants. So I have a firm believe now in life after body no longer functions, but what I saw was so light and transparent I don't think you could take photo or video.

Maybe if you used some type of temperature sensitive camera you might pick up on changes in temperature but I didn't have any like that at the time.

[Chaossaber314]

I heard someone on one of the late night talk shows suggest that ghosts are actually time travelers attempting to, I guess, simply visit whatever period they appear in utilizing some kind of cloaking device that doesn't work 100% of the time.

[thx1138]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I heard someone on one of the late night talk shows suggest that ghosts are actually time travelers attempting to, I guess, simply visit whatever period they appear in utilizing some kind of cloaking device that doesn't work 100% of the time.

You might like this short film called "La Jettee" which is along the lines of your suggestion.
la jetee


From what I have had experience with I think people who die suddenly may stay in that place not realizing that they have died. Or if someone really loves a place or are really attached to someone or something that once was in that place, and they don't want to leave it.

For example two of the "ghosts" I saw were in the form of a man and woman in the old (1930's) appartment building I was living in at the time. The strange thing about seeing them was sometimes they seemed young and at other times they seemed to be an older couple.

It was really interesting sometimes I would only see thier forms and other times I would see what would looked like old film footage in which the frame speed is moving faster then what is used today. Like if you were to watch old WWI film footage and all the people look like they are running about very quickly. The short images or films I would see were of the couple in what looked like clothes people wore around the 1920's or 1930's.

I think maybe they spent thier whole lives in this appartment and didn't want to leave it.

All I can say to people who don't believe in anything like this is "Seeing is believe, and you can't really understand something that you haven't personally had contact with, but don't be so closed minded about the subject that you reject."

I would really like to hear stories from other people who have had similar experiences with this subject.

[rez]

Quote by: Kuldeep They do exist metaphysically. How can you study them with physical tools ?? My proof of their existence is people's experiences.

Earlier in the thread we discussed people that do study ghosts with physical tools. The only way ghost hunters can be taken seriously is by using physical tools that can measure these experiences people are having.

You mean "Real" in physical sense only...that is your foly. How can you say there is absolutely nothing beyond your physical senses ??

Just because something exists beyond our physical senses, does not mean it is meta-physical or supernatural.

Yes I myself turn ghost and keep on interacting with ghosts but in dreams. In dreams everything metaphysical !! I am ghost of myself in dream and all others I see in dream are all in ghost forms. None in anybody's dream are "Physically Real" as you put it.

You are not in a reality affecting real people in your dreams though. Your mind is resting and is indeed thinking and imagining. You are a ghost in your own head.

Nope ! It is mainly reverse, Thoughts produce different type of electric impulse and chemical and bio-chemical reactions in brain. To be more correct, I would say these are reversible reactions. Thoughts affect electric impulses while electice impulses affect thoughts.

Then explain A.I.

Here, I would agree!! I am happy to hear from you that thoughts do not exist physically but since they exist in some form, so must exist meta-physically. Similarly, as thoughts exist, ghosts too exist metaphysically

Thoughts are a byproduct of the cause and effect reality we live in. Our thoughts would be useless if we did not have limbs to control. In fact, if we did not have limbs to control we would be like plants or a vegetable.

[rez]

Quote by: Technosoul I don't care if anyone can scientifically test for ghosts or not. That is not at all important. The important thing is that people do encounter such things and we cannot help but wonder why. Here is my ghost story. ( a true story ) My sister was dieing of cancer, which had spread through her whole body, she saw three ghosts, one was our father who had passed away, and two other ladies in red dresses. Who were my mother's sisters, also that had passed away. My mother was still alive but had lost her memory, and she did not know us anymore by our names. I was at her bedside as she took her last breath and passed away. So my brother and I were the last of the family except for my mother who was 95 years old, at an old folks care home. At the funneal a friend of my mothers came up to me and wanted to tell me something "odd". She was visiting my mother at the very time my sister died and we told her not to mention it to our mother. When she walked in the nursing home my mother was alert and said " did you know that (my sisters name) died" Her friend was surprised that she knew that because it was a secret. Her friend asked her "are you ready to let go yet so you can be with her". she said "No, I am waiting for (my name)". She had not used my name for about a year, due to her lost memory. I was surprised. Did my sister's spirit pay her a last visit? What was she waiting for me to do? The next day I paid her a visit. She once more did not know my name. She looked out the window to look at a crow sitting on an electric wire, pecking at something. "Look at the bird, he better be careful or we will have to call him home". "you will call him home?" I continued the conversation" Mother said as she nodded off to sleep again. "yes, to the Other". A few months later she passed away. The ghostly message was clear. My sister always used to say "take care of your self" when we parted company.

its called coincidence and you looking for comforting instances that give you peace of mind.

This is no different then the gambler putting a troll next to them on the table thinking it is going to help them win to give them good luck. Although, there is a chance for them to win...it is not because its the troll. People fail to see the coincidence of the troll and the random lucky win being there.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: rez its called coincidence and you looking for comforting instances that give you peace of mind. This is no different then the gambler putting a troll next to them on the table thinking it is going to help them win to give them good luck. Although, there is a chance for them to win...it is not because its the troll. People fail to see the coincidence of the troll and the random lucky win being there.

I would agree that any such experience can be chauked up as being coincidences.

But then science suggests that life evolved due to such coincidences which they name-tag "random events".

[rez]

Quote by: Technosoul I would agree that any such experience can be chauked up as being coincidences. But then science suggests that life evolved due to such coincidences which they name-tag "random events".

Science doesn't suggest that. First, figure out what they do suggest and then get back to me.

[grandpa]

Quote by: rez Science doesn't suggest that. First, figure out what they do suggest and then get back to me.

I consider science to be investigative
and tentative in nature. However, I know this: The debate over whether everything's "random" or "mechanically predetermined" is a little outdated. Obviously, it can be parts of both, or neither. It is the mind that tries to put order into the universe, or to see chaos.

Grandpa h.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: rez Science doesn't suggest that. First, figure out what they do suggest and then get back to me.

Okay, I checked and found out they suggest intelligent designs and not random events.

wa-hoooo

[Technosoul]

Quote by: grandpa I consider science to be investigative and tentative in nature. However, I know this: The debate over whether everything's "random" or "mechanically predetermined" is a little outdated. Obviously, it can be parts of both, or neither. It is the mind that tries to put order into the universe, or to see chaos. Grandpa h.

Timothy Leary said "reality is an opinon" but I am not sure if he had been smoking anything when he said that.

People always come up with those "pat answers" when a topic is debated about something supernatural, or in this case, something that is "para-natural". Being that a ghost has no super powers that I know of.

Plus, if I can coin a new word, we have what I term "Hollywoodnatural" which is a merging of two words to name "reality based on Hollywood fantasy". With speicial effects they can make anything seem real.

Nature can also produce special effects, such as colors in a rainbow, all done with lights and mirrors, rather magical.

A ghost can be the product of the special effects caused by nature as interpreted by the our un-trained mind to determine how those effects were produced or how they decieved our perceptive abilities.

[grandpa]

Arf! Double post.

[grandpa]

In a way, Leary was right. As an artist, I understand that to be always realistic is to be in chains. The mind is meant to wander, to be distracted from time to time. The need to do this is a foundation of our creative energy, of culture in general. Culture is merely what Leary indicated, a common opinion of reality. If something puts culture off-course by a fraction, that thing may be regarded as unnatural and people may even seek to eliminate it.

Consider these religious factions:

U.S. drawn deeper into Iraq clashes - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com BAGHDAD - U.S. forces were drawn deeper into Iraq’s four day-old crackdown on Shiite militants on Friday, launching air strikes in Basra for the first time and battling militants in Baghdad. President Bush said the resurgent violence would not alter his determination to continue his administration's mission there.

That's why I've never been absolutely dismissive of the so-called "supernatural," or even God. I don't necessarily want to "elminate" everyone else's opinion of reality. But there is a contradiction, though, in that I am very strongly atheistic and always seek to discredit the supernatural. It's just that I don't want metaphysics to rule over me. Hell, if I could I'd see to it that I became immune to natural forces.

Anyway, it's a false dichotomy to say one is either "rational" or "irrational," and this gets to my previous point about our ascribing "chaos" or "order" to the universe.

Grandpa h.

[rez]

Quote by: Technosoul Okay, I checked and found out they suggest intelligent designs and not random events. wa-hoooo

still haven't learned anything? damn.