The supernatural

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: rez Like OMG, you are so totally right. I can't think of any reason why people would ever come up with having seen something that never has existed before!

The point is why would people make up claims of having seen ghosts why would people write about ghosts if nobody had ever seen one?

To start the trend someone would first have to come up with the "hey, I wonder if people die and leave a presence behind..."

Without enough backing of other claims nobody would believe in ghosts and the concept would have never taken off. Multiple people would have had to all invent the idea and make claims and provide some level of proof in order to start the trend. Awfully hard to do especially before the era of photoshop and special effects.

[rez]

Quote by: HelioPrime The point is why would people make up claims of having seen ghosts

Because people enjoy making up shit? People embellish all the time...

Sometimes people are plain out morons and think they saw a ghost when in reality it was just a shadow. In fact, I have first hand experiences of people getting scared right infront of me thinking they saw a ghost, when in reality it was nothing.

why would people write about ghosts if nobody had ever seen one?

Because they are idiots? Perhaps if it was real, then it would actually be studied by real scientists with instruments that actually worked. Perhaps there would be actual explanations to learn from..

But there is none of that. Instead you have crackpots with fake electronic meters that pull in nothing.

You would have scientific studies of what ghosts are made of.
Why do they frequent the houses they use to live in?
Why do they still wear human clothes?
Why do they still have human features?
What dimension do they exist in?

To start the trend someone would first have to come up with the "hey, I wonder if people die and leave a presence behind..."

Thats not possible?

Maybe its even possible for a Cro-Magnon man get hit over the head, be knocked out for an hour and then become conscious again and have the whole tribe consider it a miracle and think it was the sun god that brought him back to life? And from then on worship the sun god....

Cro-Magnon man did not know what a brain was, let alone what cum was.

Cro-Magnon man did not know how a plant grew. Cro-Magnon man didn't know they were living on planet within a universe that stretched billions of light years across.

Infact, Cro-magnon didn't know much about reality except for how to survive, and all though they tried to explain reality with concepts that my 4 year old would come up alot of people choose to agree with them.. Who would of thunk it?

Without enough backing of other claims nobody would believe in ghosts and the concept would have never taken off.

son, you give people too much credit. Nobody gives a shit about evidence and repeating results. Otherwise gamblers wouldn't think their lucky troll gives them good luck. People always thinks eye witnesses are the most credible form of evidence.....

Multiple people would have had to all invent the idea and make claims and provide some level of proof in order to start the trend. Awfully hard to do especially before the era of photoshop and special effects.

No. you see you got the logic wrong. Photoshop and special effects are a by product of humans becoming MORE intelligent. It means people are becoming more and more skeptical and a little bit more observant nowadays. Before that, people were less skeptical because they had less experience with the logical and precise methods of inquiry we have today. Hundreds of years ago, people would eat the wheat that grew in the fields, trip balls, think witches were coming after them, and then hang whoever looked like a witch. We now know witches don't exist. It was the ergot on the wheat that made them hallucinate.

[rez]

Quote by: gela ghosts.. I think they exist.. but they might not. I don't have any strong feelings either way. Either way.. Im definitly not afraid of them.

Honestly you really probably shouldn't have any strong feelings, because they don't interact with you and don't effect any part of your life. It would be like they don't exist at all....

However, you have people that make up these really stupid excuses like "why would people make ghosts up" and then come up with really really stupid sources like "The Sun" to defend that the supernatural exists....


Thats where I get my strong feelings from. People that are willfully ignorant.

[gela]

Thats where I get my strong feelings from. People that are willfully ignorant.

They could just as easily say you are ignorant to all the evidence out there for ghosts.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: gela They could just as easily say you are ignorant to all the evidence out there for ghosts.

In the same manner a theist would say you are ignorant of all the evidence of god.
When in actual fact there is none.

[gela]

Some ghost stories:

My grandmother.. who is very religious and would deny seeing any ghosts if she could, saw a ghost of a little girl at port arthur (site of a nasty jail and a massacre).

My friend who recons she can see 'auras' on people; saw a calm aura at Port Arthur.

My other friend took a photo of a ghost.. I was there when the photo was taken, and there was no one there. But on the picture there was a fuzzy picture of a face. This was at an ex-gaol on halloween.

On that same ghost tour of the gaol, apparently there was a ghost standing in a door way that about 15 people could see..

Aunty and Uncle both saw a ghost on the road.. they thought they hit someone, they went straight through it; they actualy stopped the car and checked that they didn't hit someone.

Friend use to live in a house where furniture moved by itself.

Friends playing with a spirit board had a spooky expeirience.. something to do with doors slamming and they could all feel 'cold air' somewhere.. I forget the details it happened years ago..

(not realy a ghost story but anyway..) My Aunty thinks she can see auras.. One day I was really upset, but I acted calm and walked upstairs to see her. She didn't even look at my face, she looked above my head like she could see something shocking, then asked me whats wrong realy concerned.

Im not arguing that ghosts or the supernatural are real.. Im perfectly aware that none of this is scientific. Im willing to believe they were all mind tricks - like I said, I dont feel strongly either way. I just like the idea of ghosts; I think its interesting.

In the same manner a theist would say you are ignorant of all the evidence of god. When in actual fact there is none.

In my opinion, that is more proof then then what theists produce; but its all a matter of opinion.

[SoylentGreen]

gela Some ghost stories

And the relevant word there is stories.

I just like the idea of ghosts; I think its interesting.

I know what you mean. Personally I hate ghost stories, so damn predictable. The dead guy did it.
But as in your quote one could change the word ghost for say, god or flying saucers or yeti's.
Interesting stories that all have one thing in common.
For all the alleged sightings still no one has produced anything close to something like proof.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: SoylentGreen And the relevant word there is stories. For all the alleged sightings still no one has produced anything close to something like proof.

Of course there has been proof. But none believers do not accept ghosts so they always have a natural explanation for every item. Just like Agent Diana Scully, when presenting with the obvious she just inserts randomly generated natural causes.

When presented with proof the non believer:

- Says all photos are fake because we already know ghosts don't exist.
- All electronic data is just random noise because we know ghosts don't exist
- All sightings are made up or just the brain playing tricks because we know ghosts don't exist.

[HelioPrime]

[quote=rez;488851]
Because they are idiots? Perhaps if it was real, then it would actually be studied by real scientists with instruments that actually worked. Perhaps there would be actual explanations to learn from..
[quote]

Your still ignoring how ghosts could have evolved as a concept. Did multitudes of people just make shit up over time and others believe in it? And for what gain, why would people make it up across time in every culture?

You would have scientific studies of what ghosts are made of. Why do they frequent the houses they use to live in? Why do they still wear human clothes? Why do they still have human features? What dimension do they exist in?

Obviously since nobody is able to touch or feel a ghost people have their theories. A ghost might not fully exist in our space.

[quote]
Maybe its even possible for a Cro-Magnon man get hit over the head, be knocked out for an hour and then become conscious again and have the whole tribe consider it a miracle and think it was the sun god that brought him back to life? And from then on worship the sun god....

Cro-Magnon man did not know what a brain was, let alone what cum was.

Cro-Magnon man did not know how a plant grew. Cro-Magnon man didn't know they were living on planet within a universe that stretched billions of light years across.

Infact, Cro-magnon didn't know much about reality except for how to survive, and all though they tried to explain reality with concepts that my 4 year old would come up alot of people choose to agree with them.. Who would of thunk it?
[quote]

Why the hell did you bring cave men into this? When I refer to the time where ghosts might have started from clearly you could have thought of better examples, but you brought up ancient cave men with no purpose other than to waste chat space.

No. you see you got the logic wrong. Photoshop and special effects are a by product of humans becoming MORE intelligent. It means people are becoming more and more skeptical and a little bit more observant nowadays. Before that, people were less skeptical because they had less experience with the logical and precise methods of inquiry we have today. Hundreds of years ago, people would eat the wheat that grew in the fields, trip balls, think witches were coming after them, and then hang whoever looked like a witch. We now know witches don't exist. It was the ergot on the wheat that made them hallucinate.

Nice try. Ghosts have been around since before the day of electronics and photoshop. You still haven't given your theory on where ghosts would have evolved from as a story.

[rez]

Quote by: HelioPrime Your still ignoring how ghosts could have evolved as a concept. Did multitudes of people just make shit up over time and others believe in it? And for what gain, why would people make it up across time in every culture?

Again, people don't care about actually studying the evidence and putting their mind to determining what they saw exactly.

People don't need to make stuff up on purpose. They could think they saw a ghost, when really they didn't. Others just mindlessly believe in them.

Obviously since nobody is able to touch or feel a ghost people have their theories. A ghost might not fully exist in our space.

wow, how thought provoking and scientific of you. "They don't fully exist in our space" does not cut it. You will have to do better then that.

Why the hell did you bring cave men into this?

Cro-magnan man were the first to start using the supernatural to explain reality. The supernatural was the best way to explain reality to the primitive human mind and people like you seem to still cling to it.

When I refer to the time where ghosts might have started from clearly you could have thought of better examples, but you brought up ancient cave men with no purpose other than to waste chat space.

No it has to do with primitive human beings coming up with silly explanations.

Nice try. Ghosts have been around since before the day of electronics and photoshop. You still haven't given your theory on where ghosts would have evolved from as a story.

They evolved from as a story as way of explaining reality. These explanations were preferred by very primitive human beings. The stories stuck and now we are here. And although there are a few people here and there that think they exist, more and more stories are being selected out.

[SoylentGreen]

HelioPrime Of course there has been proof.

Care to share that with us.

When presented with proof the non believer:

I prefer to keep an open mind on the subject myself. But as yet have yet to see anything that is credible in the way of proof.

[Kuldeep]

Ghosts! Are there or not there but, people try hard to get them photographed. Some get something due to variety of optical errors or anything else!!

The incident, which has actually taken place, though I do not remember the name of the persons involved.

It is told there had been some great Saint, who was prohibting all from taking a Photo-snap shot of his. But, one person (phtographer by profession) who was very much wishing to have his photograph and so decided to take a photograph of the said Saint somehow. One day, the saint was sitting on a wooden bench. The photographer secretly took the right position and managed to have few snaps shots from different angles from varying distances. When he went to his darkroom to develop the photo reel.

LOL...what happed, he could get full bench along with rest of the scenary in all the photographs but not the desired saint's phtograph.

Seeing this and repenting that he should not have taken snap shots without Saint's permission, he went to the Saint and apologized for his cheating. Saint smiled and asked why at all he wanted his photograph?? The fellow showed his keenness and devotion and begged to allow him to keep just one phtograph of his for record and worship. Feeling pity on the person, he allowed to him have just one snap. Wonderful, this time there was no miracle miss, the Saint was visible in the photograph !!!

If this is a true story then definitely person could exist in meta-physical state as well. Please do not ask me proof and how of it !!! I really do not know.

[Kuldeep]

You would have scientific studies of what ghosts are made of.

Scientific study of Ghosts is not possible since science deals with physical matter and energy while; Ghosts are meta physical.

In metaphysical form (i.e. In thought dimension), they have all the senses, brain,. memory, mind and the sense of self existence (ego); exactly in the same manner as in living Physical gross form.

In simplar words, I would put that Ghosts live in thoughts. In thoughts only they have all the senses, brain,. memory, mind and the sense self existence (ego) etc.

Why do they frequent the houses they use to live in?

Because, they love the houses they use to live in and due to intact memory continue to love it and feel it their own...so they visit their houses frequently.

Why do they still wear human clothes?

In thoughts, they can think to wear anything as per their liking. They think usually to wear as per their liking while physically living...therefore the human clothes only

Why do they still have human features?

In thoughts only, since their memory is unchanged tfrom what they have been looking at themselves as human only while in physical living...so they still have human features

What dimension do they exist in?

In thoughts, dimesions could vary, but, mostly due to in-tact memory and in thought dimensions remain same as while physically living

[rez]

Quote by: Kuldeep Scientific study of Ghosts is not possible since science deals with physical matter and energy while; Ghosts are meta physical.

Actually no. It can't study ghosts because ghosts don't actually exist. If they existed then they could be studied.

Science tries to understand and explain reality, and if ghosts are infact real then they would be apart of reality and therefore need to be explained. PERIOD.

In metaphysical form (i.e. In thought dimension), they have all the senses, brain,. memory, mind and the sense of self existence (ego); exactly in the same manner as in living Physical gross form.

Did a ghost tell you this? Do you hear voices in your head? Where do you get this information from? Do you study ghosts?

In simplar words, I would put that Ghosts live in thoughts. In thoughts only they have all the senses, brain,. memory, mind and the sense self existence (ego) etc.

Thoughts are produced by electric impulses in the brain. Those electric impulses are physical matter and energy. While thoughts themselves, do not physically exist in reality, the mechanisms that control and make them possible do.

[grandpa]

Quote by: rez Actually no. It can't study ghosts because ghosts don't actually exist.

You can't prove a negative...unless you have faith, in which case you merely presuppose it's proven.

Grandpa h.

[rez]

Quote by: grandpa You can't prove a negative...unless you have faith, in which case you merely presuppose it's proven. Grandpa h.

Nope, I can't prove a negative. Why do I need to disprove or prove a negative? A negative in this case, is nothingness. Ghosts do not effect my life nor do they interact with my life, it is like they do not exist even if they actually did. Do you see the trend here? Even if Ghosts were as real as the computer I am typing on, they certainly do not make it seem like it.

Wouldn't it be the job of the ghost believer to make it apparent they actually exist and do interact with people's daily lives?

It is like I am sitting at my office desk, some crazy car accident happens outside, I don't see it...but my co-worker does. Claims it happened, I say I want to actually see if its true and then my co-worker brings me out and doesn't actually show it happened.

The claims of the believer do not line up with the story they tell. The problem is either the believer or the ghosts playing tricks on them.

[grandpa]

Quote by: rez Nope, I can't prove a negative. Why do I need to disprove or prove a negative?

No one "needs to" try, but it is an interesting discussion nonetheless.

Grandpa h.

[rez]

Quote by: HelioPrime Of course there has been proof. But none believers do not accept ghosts so they always have a natural explanation for every item. Just like Agent Diana Scully, when presenting with the obvious she just inserts randomly generated natural causes.

Agent Diana Scully lived in a world created by a man that imagined aliens would be interacting with human lives on a weekly basis every night at 9p.m. Agent Diana Scully was a fake person living in a fake world and was an example of a fake premise that does not connect at all to this world.

Please, learn this is a very bad analogy.

Says all photos are fake because we already know ghosts don't exist.

All photos are subjected to speculation because photos are not a great way of suggesting ghosts are real. They are also extremely subjective. I can see a smear and you see a person. So because of that you need a way of making it clear that it is a person and that I am wrong...

- All electronic data is just random noise because we know ghosts don't exist

Random noise is random noise. Again it is subjective.

All sightings are made up or just the brain playing tricks because we know ghosts don't exist.

besides stories, smudges on a photo, shadows on video, static in audio is there any other evidence out there that suggest ghosts exist?

[grandpa]

I thought it was "Dana Scully."

[rez]

Quote by: grandpa No one "needs to" try, but it is an interesting discussion nonetheless. Grandpa h.

what kind of discussion based on false information is interesting?