Thinking independantly.

[Technosoul]

Is thinking for your self both unscientific and morally wrong?

[Jack]

It depends on what you mean by "thinking for yourself".

Thinking for yourself does not imply that you arrive at all your conclusions by yourself, that you don't consider anything you haven't personally investigated. It means you are willing to look at the evidence out there, the work that others have done to support their conclusions, and then decide for yourself which opinions you'll adopt. Free thinking isn't a replacement for an education. You can think for yourself and still come to amazingly illogical, unscientific, irrational and nonsensical conclusions. The best preventative for that is an exposure to as much information, pro and con, basic and advanced, as possible. The more information you've amassed to base your conclusions on the the more likely your conclusions are to be sound and supportable.
Free thinking is essentially thinking without preconceived notions or biases. It's very hard for the average human to do that perfectly. We do the best we can.

Outside religion I can see no moral aspect to free thinking.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Isherwood It depends on what you mean by "thinking for yourself". Thinking for yourself does not imply that you arrive at all your conclusions by yourself, that you don't consider anything you haven't personally investigated.

To me "thinking for yourself" means you don't take every claim as true. For example, it might mean you do not instantly accept the rationale behind war. The frustrating thing is that not all "yesmen" have lost their marbles or are complete idiots. A lot of it is social conditioning; repetitive behavior, a certain kind of upbringing. Young minds are easy prey.

Grandpa h.

[zcbt3]

Free thinking is next to impossible with all the outside influences. Advertisements, political debates, how you were raised, and loads of other things all determine how and what you think.
I'm sorry folks, but there's no such thing.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Isherwood It depends on what you mean by "thinking for yourself". Thinking for yourself does not imply that you arrive at all your conclusions by yourself, that you don't consider anything you haven't personally investigated. It means you are willing to look at the evidence out there, the work that others have done to support their conclusions, and then decide for yourself which opinions you'll adopt. Free thinking isn't a replacement for an education. You can think for yourself and still come to amazingly illogical, unscientific, irrational and nonsensical conclusions. The best preventative for that is an exposure to as much information, pro and con, basic and advanced, as possible. The more information you've amassed to base your conclusions on the the more likely your conclusions are to be sound and supportable. Free thinking is essentially thinking without preconceived notions or biases. It's very hard for the average human to do that perfectly. We do the best we can. Outside religion I can see no moral aspect to free thinking.

The more knowledge you have the better you can explain an idea or opinion you arrived at via thinking for yourself. But thinking for your self is not about adopting, stealing, or conforming to someone else's ideas, that is just copycatting. Nothing new can come from that.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: zcbt3 Free thinking is next to impossible with all the outside influences. Advertisements, political debates, how you were raised, and loads of other things all determine how and what you think. I'm sorry folks, but there's no such thing.

Are you using the term "free thinking" to mean "thinking for your self"?

Now what you said, and the reasons you believe it is so, is rather original. The final point "no such thing as free thinking or thinking for your self" is a answer I would not expect here at Volconvo.

Now be honest. Did you hear that someplace else and just repeat it here? How did that somewhat original sounding idea come into exsistance? Or were you thinking for yourself and came up with that opinon out of free thinking?

[Jack]

Quote by: zcbt3 Free thinking is next to impossible with all the outside influences. Advertisements, political debates, how you were raised, and loads of other things all determine how and what you think. I'm sorry folks, but there's no such thing.

A major component of free thinking is to become aware of those influences. Once you become aware of them, they lose much of their power over you. For example, if I believe Bob is an expert on a particular topic and accept everything he says about it without question, I'm not thinking. Once I realize Bob may not be absolutely correct in everything he says, I become free to question his assertions. The more I question, the more information I have to base my own thinking on. Awareness and skepticism are enemies of blind acceptance.

Quote by: Technosoul The more knowledge you have the better you can explain an idea or opinion you arrived at via thinking for yourself. But thinking for your self is not about adopting, stealing, or conforming to someone else's ideas, that is just copycatting. Nothing new can come from that.

Free thinking is not about always coming up with unique, un-thought-of-before ideas. Some very profound thinkers have lived before us. To agree with them isn't a sign of intellectual laziness as long as you have really thought about what they said and decided you can agree with it. If you just accept it without consideration or contemplation, then I'd categorize it as intellectual laziness.

[zcbt3]

Isherwood, do you not base these ideas on social norms, morals, etc? Do you not get this so-called "awareness" from other places? I'm sure you didn't come up with all that on your own. Yes, you have the freedom to believe/agree with the ideas teeming around you. But what is thinking independantly, anyhow?

[zcbt3]

Quote by: Technosoul Now be honest. Did you hear that someplace else and just repeat it here? How did that somewhat original sounding idea come into exsistance? Or were you thinking for yourself and came up with that opinon out of free thinking?

I'm not sure whether to take this as a compliment or an arguement. If it is a compliment, thank you. If it is an arguement, allow me to explain.

As I previously stated, ideas come from what's around us and unfortunately we have no other choice. There is a certain level of "free thinking", were we have the choice to form our own opinions based on what's already been imprinted.

[thx1138]

This man is an indepentant thinker, he may not be correct, but he's still indepentant.

Matrix of Power

[Technosoul]

Quote by: zcbt3 I'm not sure whether to take this as a compliment or an arguement. If it is a compliment, thank you. If it is an arguement, allow me to explain. As I previously stated, ideas come from what's around us and unfortunately we have no other choice. There is a certain level of "free thinking", were we have the choice to form our own opinions based on what's already been imprinted.

I would agree that one idea could trigger another - different idea - or a different interpretation.

I would agree that everything influences everything else.

Knowing that it is possible to get a degree of liberation from imprinted knowledge as a bias by "being still" and clearing the mind. But ideas and thoughts come about somehow, or from somewhere, and we have no real control over that, but can be selective about what to believe and later repeat as our opinon or in our words.

We often hear the term "thinking outside the box". The ability to view something from a different angle, an angle that no one else thought of using. Such can happen due to a brain defect - aka insanity. Or on purpose in a controlled way.

Concerning how you should take my remarks the answer is "both ways".

Now, we also have lots of people who like to see things in a simple "black and white" way, that causes less confusion. Less choices to pick from. It is two-dimensional thinking as compared to three-dimensional thinking. A advanced thinker might think of the 3rd choice. ( or more ).

Example:

Flag waver view about America. Love it or leave it.

Hippy view about America - love it, leave it, or change it.

If reality is an opinon then the thinker is presented with an open envelope for the discovery of new or alternative "concepts".

[another day]

Quote by: Isherwood A major component of free thinking is to become aware of those influences. Once you become aware of them, they lose much of their power over you. For example, if I believe Bob is an expert on a particular topic and accept everything he says about it without question, I'm not thinking. Once I realize Bob may not be absolutely correct in everything he says, I become free to question his assertions. The more I question, the more information I have to base my own thinking on. Awareness and skepticism are enemies of blind acceptance.

Bingo. A free thinker is not someone unaffected by outside influence, but rather a person who is aware of that influence and seeks to understand how it can affect his every decision and his thought process.

[grandpa]

Quote by: another day A free thinker is not someone unaffected by outside influence, but rather a person who is aware of that influence and seeks to understand how it can affect his every decision and his thought process.

I agree with this definition. It's hard to believe someone would find a way to
exploit it in a negative way. And it's harder to manipulate people who are more aware of their own thought processes. That's where the "independent" part comes in. Of course, independent thought needs a seed in order to grow.

Grandpa h.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Isherwood A major component of free thinking is to become aware of those influences. Once you become aware of them, they lose much of their power over you. For example, if I believe Bob is an expert on a particular topic and accept everything he says about it without question, I'm not thinking. Once I realize Bob may not be absolutely correct in everything he says, I become free to question his assertions. The more I question, the more information I have to base my own thinking on. Awareness and skepticism are enemies of blind acceptance. Free thinking is not about always coming up with unique, un-thought-of-before ideas. Some very profound thinkers have lived before us. To agree with them isn't a sign of intellectual laziness as long as you have really thought about what they said and decided you can agree with it. If you just accept it without consideration or contemplation, then I'd categorize it as intellectual laziness.

I would agree also with your response to me. Independant thinking is not about always disagreeing with everyone else ideas.

It is wise and also respectful to give each idea consideration and our best effort to comprehend what the other person is saying or writing. And not get caught up in some attitude of being a rebel or non-conformist.

Independant thinking would go hand and hand with independant listening. It is a two way street.

I would also agree with your suggestions above you response to me.

But those suggestions are for students, the beginning stages where you are learning about what all is out there as information or knowledge. And then learning how to make up your own mind about that knowledge or idea by processing it through your own ability to discern details (such as contradictions) so that you can determine if it is logical, acceptable, or useless - etc.

Consuming knowledge can be like eating food. Let it go in one ear and out the other, the good parts will stick inbetween if the mind/brain can use it. That is called digesting knowledge. When we force our self to remember something, then we are adding useless fat to our mind, which is not good for a healthy mind, effecting clear thinking.

It should be noted that our government, our religion, and the department of education ( and control freaks in general ) fear the free thinker and will appose them if they can.
See post about the military commander who was forced to resign.

Independant thinking is a step just beyond the learning processes. But not sure just how to define it correctly. Other then as "thinking for your self".

[Kizzume]

Quote by: grandpa I agree with this definition. It's hard to believe someone would find a way to exploit it in a negative way. And it's harder to manipulate people who are more aware of their own thought processes. That's where the "independent" part comes in. Of course, independent thought needs a seed in order to grow. Grandpa h.

Both you and Another Day have said it well. One thing I see a lot of on this forum are truly free thinkers. This is a good thing :)

[grandpa]

Quote by: Kizzume Both you and Another Day have said it well. One thing I see a lot of on this forum are truly free thinkers.

I liked it as well.

Grandpa h.

[Jack]

Independant thinking would go hand and hand with independant listening.

Absolutely. I've never met a person who values thinking who doesn't regard listening just as highly. The abilities to listen and comprehend are two of the highest functions of our brains.

Please note: I use "listen" is both a literal and figurative sense. There are many deaf people who have learned to "listen" to others as effectively as any hearing person.

[thx1138]

So times people who believe they are thinking independantly are really being feed there opinon from an un seen hand.

Maybe my opinons also are not so independent also.

YouTube - The Untouchable Banksters of The Capitalist Conspiracy 4/5

[Technosoul]

Think for your self and vote for Ron Paul. Not because I told you too, but because you want to out of your own free will. Do it because you are a free thinker and not one of the sheepe.

Indeed, not all free thinkers are thinking for their self.