Speculations about spirits

[Technosoul]

This is sort of an upgrade from my dumb Haunted Sea posting and you all should give it some degree of respect.

The question I wish to explore is about our mind's spirit of consciousness, does it exsist and is it bio-degradable?

Now most of our body will transform or transmutate back into the earth and soil, the water will return to being water and so forth. The physical body is totally biodegradable in that respect if we do not add preservatives.

But what about the mind's consciousness of being as an identity, as a thinker or whatever? What can consciousness return too, do we know from whence it came?

We cannot assume that it returns to nothingness, without proof that such as reality called nothingness is possible. Yet we can forget what we learned, we can forget knowledge or other things in our memory cells. And if the cells bio-degrade then so would it's contents.

But there is more to the mind then just what we remember via learning, we have a kind of consciousness, an awareness of being, a knowing of selfhood and individual-ness.

Where does that all go when we die and our body goes through it's processes of bio-degrading? Does it continue to exsist somehow without our body as a support system. for it it dies it must then return to something - but what. Unless consciousness never really did exsist, and is just an illusion caused by certain external effects that cause that illusion.

Now, I could indeed post this in the religion and philosophy forum and get all kinds of logical or ill-logical answers. But that is not good enough, I want a scientific answer if possible.

For consciousness ether does not exist or if it does then it must bio-degrade back into it's original essence or continue to exist as is without a body. It cannot just go poof once it becomes an "existance" when our body dies and cannot house it anymore.

Anyone wish to take a stab at this question?

[Muckraker]

Maybe something like this:

Consciousness is to the human body/mind as self locomotion is to the automobile.

When all of the mechanical components of the automobile are functioning properly it is able to achieve self locomotion. If the automobile is crushed, and its scrap is melted down, self locomotion for that automobile ceases to exist. Since self locomotion is a product of functional components, once the components no longer function the product is no longer "created."

The same could be said for the living spirit or consciousness. When biological components malfunction, the product (or byproduct) of consiousness can be temporarily cut off, malformed, or permanently cut off.

So, when we die, consciousness ceases to be created by our components. There is no "substance" of consciousness that degrades or somehow exists on its own just like there is no "substance" of locomotion that exists for a vehicle that has been turned to scrap.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Muckraker Maybe something like this: Consciousness is to the human body/mind as self locomotion is to the automobile. When all of the mechanical components of the automobile are functioning properly it is able to achieve self locomotion. If the automobile is crushed, and its scrap is melted down, self locomotion for that automobile ceases to exist. Since self locomotion is a product of functional components, once the components no longer function the product is no longer "created." The same could be said for the living spirit or consciousness. When biological components malfunction, the product (or byproduct) of consiousness can be temporarily cut off, malformed, or permanently cut off. So, when we die, consciousness ceases to be created by our components. There is no "substance" of consciousness that degrades or somehow exists on its own just like there is no "substance" of locomotion that exists for a vehicle that has been turned to scrap.

Of course the gas and oil would still exist in some form or another once you car is dead. Or has a dead battery. It generates energy for locomotion and that energy is used up during it's operation. the electric energy would become dormet if not activated by the car. Of course another car could use the energy stored in the battery.

Here is another example:

Our computer can be programed with data from a source, and it can get electric power from a source. As long as the computer is working all those data files remain "alive" inside the computer. Now if you distroyed the computer the data in that computer would likewise be lost. But the source would not, the data would still exist at the place where it was programed from, and the electric plant would still exsist even if the computer was unplugged.

Now, we must somehow compare our brain with that computer. The knowledge we learn would still be in existance even if we are dead, that is because our brain (or computer) just made a copy of it, and so only the copy became lost, when the container was distroyed.

Our DNA is a copy of at least two other sources, our parents. Nearly everything existing is now a copy of a fomer source. With possible slight changes due to other factors.

The total landscape is just a big copy nature has printed out, or something like that. And so one could deduct that we are all reproductions that are also able to self-reproduce. A self programing computer that has learned to program it's own brain via learning stuff though our senses, or by what we call our ability for "logical reasoning".

Hmm?

However, in science we learn about evolution. Evolution is caused in part by a desire to survive. The desire to stay alive and to continue our existance.

And so "what if" our consciousness found a way to evolve and to survive the death of it's physical bady, as a being of pure energy? To continue to exist as an aware consciousness. What other objective would evolution have in the long run? And why have evolution if we are going to totally die anyway. Not much point in dieng "better fit" to live. At least that does not sound logical to me. What is the point of evolving into a better able to survive animal if it would only add a short time to our exsistance in the so called reality which is just a duplicaiton and not the real thing. The fact that we do not know our brain discovered a way to survive eternally does not mean that it did not do so, but just never told us about that evolution for survial. And yet, can we not "sense it" is so, deep down inside our consciousness?

Can we not become in the likeness of the source, and break free from being just a copy?

[Muckraker]

It doesn't matter if components of the car still exist and are functional in other vehicles. That single car's ability to self propel ceases to exist. There is no way to get it back or transfer it to another car and there is no "essence of locomotion" that hovers nearby or looks for someplace else to go.

I think the only hope of transferring "consciousness" outside of the human body lies with technology. If the biological electrical signals that run us could be meshed with mechanical electrical signals then it could be possible to theoretically upload our consciousness to a mechanical/electrical device. If that device has the same sensory input that the human body does then it should be a relatively close match.

The only question in that scenario is if the upload makes a "copy" of our consciousness then what ultimately happens? If our consciousness is like a movie camera then how do we get the camera perspective to stop following our physical body and start following the version that resides in the mechanical construct?

It would be like having two 1st person views running simultaneously, from the same conscious perspective, but from different physical locations.

It certainly would be interesting. I know I would happily volunteer myself up as a test subject if it meant being able to exist in a self-created, electronic universe. Kind of like Lawnmower Man on steroids.

[loser]

Since I believe in the Creator God (Christian Bible) as scientific fact, I will give the scientific explanation as recorded in the Bible.

"(BBE) Ecc 12:7 And the dust goes back to the earth as it was, and the spirit goes back to God who gave it.
(GNB) Ecc 12:7 Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us."

That's not the end of the story, however.

"(BBE) Dan 12:2 And a number of those who are sleeping in the dust of the earth will come out of their sleep, some to eternal life and some to eternal shame."

There are many supporting verses but these two show the gist of what the Bible says will happen. First, as you say, when people die they return to the earth (as in, "ashes to ashes, dust to dust"). Surprisingly, the Bible teaches soul sleep. That is, death is like a long sleep. In the grave, there is no memory or consciousness. No one goes to heaven or eternal torment...they just sleep the sleep of death. Later, at God's appointed time, there will be a bodily resurrection of ALL people, though not all at the same time.

Obviously, the spirit that returns to God (as in Ecc 12:7 above) will contain the memories, etc. that marks (identifies) each individual person and God will use this stored data to recreate each individual in a new body. The complexity of such a majestic feat makes it seem almost impossible (and unbelievable) but, as our knowledge grows and miniaturization abilities increase, this daunting task becomes more credible. Of course, since we are talking about a super intelligent and a super powerful being, how hard could it be?

[treme]

Quote by: Technosoul This is sort of an upgrade from my dumb Haunted Sea posting and you all should give it some degree of respect. The question I wish to explore is about our mind's spirit of consciousness, does it exsist and is it bio-degradable? Now most of our body will transform or transmutate back into the earth and soil, the water will return to being water and so forth. The physical body is totally biodegradable in that respect if we do not add preservatives. But what about the mind's consciousness of being as an identity, as a thinker or whatever? What can consciousness return too, do we know from whence it came? We cannot assume that it returns to nothingness, without proof that such as reality called nothingness is possible. Yet we can forget what we learned, we can forget knowledge or other things in our memory cells. And if the cells bio-degrade then so would it's contents. But there is more to the mind then just what we remember via learning, we have a kind of consciousness, an awareness of being, a knowing of selfhood and individual-ness. Where does that all go when we die and our body goes through it's processes of bio-degrading? Does it continue to exsist somehow without our body as a support system. for it it dies it must then return to something - but what. Unless consciousness never really did exsist, and is just an illusion caused by certain external effects that cause that illusion. Now, I could indeed post this in the religion and philosophy forum and get all kinds of logical or ill-logical answers. But that is not good enough, I want a scientific answer if possible. For consciousness ether does not exist or if it does then it must bio-degrade back into it's original essence or continue to exist as is without a body. It cannot just go poof once it becomes an "existance" when our body dies and cannot house it anymore. Anyone wish to take a stab at this question?

I love this question :)

To answer it ya gotta figure out what or where our spirits came from.

Each soul that appears is what I usually call an amazing coincidence. A spirit is the culmination of seemingly meaningless events. The spirit gives those events meaning. You are a representative of all the beings, objects and events that led to your birth.

You give them meaning and validate them by living your life. You are in essence, random come to life.

So where does your spirit go when you die? From the day your parents first found out you were coming (and likely from the moment you were conceived), your spirit has been having some effect on the universe.

Your parents went out and bought clothes, bought furniture, bought diapers, maybe went to classes for childbirth or went to their church to share the good news. Even before you were born your spirit, which emerged out of apparent chaos, has been the direct cause of more chaos, more randomness, more apparently meaningless (in the grand scheme of things) events. Many many of which will have a huge impact on how the future goes.

And that's just before you were born. If a butterfly flapping its wings in Texas can effect weather in Brazil then the groceries you buy, the job you do, the fun you have, the things you know, the life you live, is having an effect on our world.

Your spirit, your soul, has been growing out from you at the speed of randomness from the day you were conceived. It will still be there when you die, only the source will be gone. Your spirit is the impression you as a being has had on this planet.

Our life is our one and only chance to make an impression on this universe... make it a good one.

[treme]

Quote by: loser Since I believe in the Creator God (Christian Bible) as scientific fact, I will give the scientific explanation as recorded in the Bible. "(BBE) Ecc 12:7 And the dust goes back to the earth as it was, and the spirit goes back to God who gave it. (GNB) Ecc 12:7 Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us." That's not the end of the story, however. "(BBE) Dan 12:2 And a number of those who are sleeping in the dust of the earth will come out of their sleep, some to eternal life and some to eternal shame." There are many supporting verses but these two show the gist of what the Bible says will happen. First, as you say, when people die they return to the earth (as in, "ashes to ashes, dust to dust"). Surprisingly, the Bible teaches soul sleep. That is, death is like a long sleep. In the grave, there is no memory or consciousness. No one goes to heaven or eternal torment...they just sleep the sleep of death. Later, at God's appointed time, there will be a bodily resurrection of ALL people, though not all at the same time. Obviously, the spirit that returns to God (as in Ecc 12:7 above) will contain the memories, etc. that marks (identifies) each individual person and God will use this stored data to recreate each individual in a new body. The complexity of such a majestic feat makes it seem almost impossible (and unbelievable) but, as our knowledge grows and miniaturization abilities increase, this daunting task becomes more credible. Of course, since we are talking about a super intelligent and a super powerful being, how hard could it be?

ashes to ashes, dust to dust, random to random...

ya pretty much same thing :)

[Technosoul]

Quote by: treme I love this question :) To answer it ya gotta figure out what or where our spirits came from. Each soul that appears is what I usually call an amazing coincidence. A spirit is the culmination of seemingly meaningless events. The spirit gives those events meaning. You are a representative of all the beings, objects and events that led to your birth. You give them meaning and validate them by living your life. You are in essence, random come to life. So where does your spirit go when you die? From the day your parents first found out you were coming (and likely from the moment you were conceived), your spirit has been having some effect on the universe. Your parents went out and bought clothes, bought furniture, bought diapers, maybe went to classes for childbirth or went to their church to share the good news. Even before you were born your spirit, which emerged out of apparent chaos, has been the direct cause of more chaos, more randomness, more apparently meaningless (in the grand scheme of things) events. Many many of which will have a huge impact on how the future goes. And that's just before you were born. If a butterfly flapping its wings in Texas can effect weather in Brazil then the groceries you buy, the job you do, the fun you have, the things you know, the life you live, is having an effect on our world. Your spirit, your soul, has been growing out from you at the speed of randomness from the day you were conceived. It will still be there when you die, only the source will be gone. Your spirit is the impression you as a being has had on this planet. Our life is our one and only chance to make an impression on this universe... make it a good one.

I like what you wrote and believe it to be true both scientifically and logicallyv correct, even more sound then just a philosophy. It is so logical that "sources" of proof are not even needed.

In fact many people have adopted it as being the purpose of existance, which is to find a way to leave a "lasting impression" of our limited existance here. To make our "mark" and become something of historical value to future generations. Or, as a religion might put it, to get our name in the "book of life", to bear fruit.

That might be done by becoming famous, to write some famous words, or simply by reproducing and having lots of grandchildren with the family scrapbook.

Of course, such impession and "chain reactions" might be both good or not good, depending on a number of factors, from the get-go and on til the last breath.

However I feel that your neat remarks are somewhat of a different topic then the one intended to explore. As consciousness and that spirit you speak of are different "interpretations" of the "soul" or our "presence as individuals". But I might be wrong, none the less, I cannot connect what you wrote with what I wrote and intended to explore with this topic. Other then the first line "where did our spirit of consciousness come from". As we grow from that one-cell indentity into a mature person we get bigger and collect more energy for our selfhood as an adult. The massing together of that energy around our conscious idea of selfhood to create this living existance we call "me", as the mind becomes like a lightbulb that is turned on by plugging into some energy source to alluiminate the mind with awareness of being and with a personalficaiton of knowing. Does that continue or does the knower shut down at death as if it was just a illusion caused by some magical combinaiton of cause and effects playing tricks with reality?

Hope this is not too deep for proper comprehension.

[Judicator]

Quote by: Technosoul This is sort of an upgrade from my dumb Haunted Sea posting and you all should give it some degree of respect. The question I wish to explore is about our mind's spirit of consciousness, does it exsist and is it bio-degradable? Now most of our body will transform or transmutate back into the earth and soil, the water will return to being water and so forth. The physical body is totally biodegradable in that respect if we do not add preservatives. But what about the mind's consciousness of being as an identity, as a thinker or whatever? What can consciousness return too, do we know from whence it came? We cannot assume that it returns to nothingness, without proof that such as reality called nothingness is possible. Yet we can forget what we learned, we can forget knowledge or other things in our memory cells. And if the cells bio-degrade then so would it's contents. But there is more to the mind then just what we remember via learning, we have a kind of consciousness, an awareness of being, a knowing of selfhood and individual-ness. Where does that all go when we die and our body goes through it's processes of bio-degrading? Does it continue to exsist somehow without our body as a support system. for it it dies it must then return to something - but what. Unless consciousness never really did exsist, and is just an illusion caused by certain external effects that cause that illusion. Now, I could indeed post this in the religion and philosophy forum and get all kinds of logical or ill-logical answers. But that is not good enough, I want a scientific answer if possible. For consciousness ether does not exist or if it does then it must bio-degrade back into it's original essence or continue to exist as is without a body. It cannot just go poof once it becomes an "existance" when our body dies and cannot house it anymore. Anyone wish to take a stab at this question?

I don't know why there is reason to suppose that your consciousness exists any more after death than it did before your birth. I think evidence that your consciousness is tied to your brain is fairly strong. For example, frontal lobe injuries often correspond to loss of self awareness. Drastic brain injuries can lead to drastic personality changes (to the extent that you aren't really you anymore)

See: www.braininjury.org.au - Impaired Self Awareness - Fact Sheet

If this is the case, then your consciousness and personality and whatever are all gone when you die. Its probably something like a dreamless sleep.

I guess if you believe in souls that a whole new can of worms...Aquinas has a "proof" of the immortal soul somewhere in Summa Theologica if you're interested. He definitely doesn't think consciousness/the soul decays.

[gallo]

Quote by: Technosoul This is sort of an upgrade from my dumb Haunted Sea posting and you all should give it some degree of respect.

That presumes that it actually deserves some degree of respect.

The question I wish to explore is about our mind's spirit of consciousness, does it exsist and is it bio-degradable?

What, exactly, is "our mind's spirit of consciousness?" What does that mean? Since "biodegradable" refers to something that is physical, I presume that you think that "our mind's spirit of consciousness" is a physical thing: a box of wood, a mountain, an arm or a leg, and "our mind's spirit of consciousness." Can you give an example of an actual observation, or measurement of "our mind's spirit of consciousness?"

Now most of our body will transform or transmutate back into the earth and soil, the water will return to being water and so forth.

Do you think that transmutate is a word? Do you mean that our body will decay? If that is what you meant, why did you use words that mean something else. The carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and other elements in our bodies will continue to be carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen, etc. There is no transmutation (transmutation is a real word).

The physical body is totally biodegradable in that respect if we do not add preservatives.

I'm not sure where you are going with this. How are preservatives relevant?

But what about the mind's consciousness of being as an identity, as a thinker or whatever?

Not a well stated question. Are you asking about my pets, both current and past, who are and have been perfectly self aware.

What can consciousness return too,

Does consciousness have physical existence? Could it possibly be the result of a complex system of chemical and electrical signals generated by living cells?

do we know from whence it came?

See above.

We cannot assume that it returns to nothingness, without proof that such as reality called nothingness is possible.

But we don't assume that. We just don't have any evidence that it is a real, physical entity rather than the effect of our brain. We can't assume that it won't return to nothingness (whether we call it nothingness or not) without any evidence that consciousness is a physical entity. When the physical processes that produce consciousness cease, then consciousness goes away. Brain damaged people who once used to be conscious no longer are. My dog is more aware than some. Where did their consciousness go? If consciousness were a physical entity, then it would not cease to exist because of brain damage.

Yet we can forget what we learned, we can forget knowledge or other things in our memory cells.

Holy crap! Have you never heard of Alzheimer's disease? I can guarantee that even without Alzheimer's, you will forget a lot. I was once fluent in Spanish (I lived in Mexico) - native speakers didn't know that I wasn't a native. I couldn't order breakfast today. We do forget whether you think so or not.

And if the cells bio-degrade then so would it's contents.

If you mean memory and consciousness, then they are gone long before the brain begins to bio-degrade.

But there is more to the mind then just what we remember via learning, we have a kind of consciousness, an awareness of being, a knowing of selfhood and individual-ness.

Is there a point?

Where does that all go when we die and our body goes through it's processes of bio-degrading?

You sure try to sound scientific - without much success. When we die the chemical and electrical processes that produce consciousness cease. There is no physical entity that has ever been shown to exist.

Does it continue to exsist somehow without our body as a support system.

No. There is no evidence for that.

for it it dies it must then return to something - but what.

So, when you turn off a light switch, where did the light go?

Unless consciousness never really did exsist, and is just an illusion caused by certain external effects that cause that illusion.

Now you are trying to load the question by pretending that consciousness is somehow physical. It does exist as an effect of highly complex functions of the brains of higher animals.

Now, I could indeed post this in the religion and philosophy forum and get all kinds of logical or ill-logical answers.

And you should have done so.

But that is not good enough, I want a scientific answer if possible.

But it isn't if you think that consciousness is something more that the function of complex brain.

For consciousness ether does not exist or if it does then it must bio-degrade back into it's original essence or continue to exist as is without a body.

False dichotomy as a result of shallow thinking.

It cannot just go poof once it becomes an "existance" when our body dies and cannot house it anymore.

Why not?

Anyone wish to take a stab at this question?

It's a silly question.

[LookToTheFuture]

How about the human brain is just a complex mix of chemicals, elements and electrical impulses that merely give the impression of conciousness. This would mean that the soul, in an eternal sense, does not exist. If your brain gets damaged and this in turn screws with the neural pathways then your personality may appear different to others. This would suggest that the brain is the machine that gives us the ability to assimilate information from our surroundings and from that ,and parental DNA, form who we.

Also on the god thing. How do explain that the rapid increase of people on the planet verses the number of souls? Are there infinite souls or at some point will we run out of 'dormant souls' and people will then just give birth to dribbling vegetables with no soul and therefore no mind or personality or will birth be put on hold until another soul comes on to the market?

Of course i can't offer any proof on this front so sadly it is only my belief and opinion which i base on my previous experiences, teachings and perception of the real world.

[Technosoul]

[quote=Judicator;482964]I don't know why there is reason to suppose that your consciousness exists any more after death than it did before your birth. I think evidence that your consciousness is tied to your brain is fairly strong. For example, frontal lobe injuries often correspond to loss of self awareness. Drastic brain injuries can lead to drastic personality changes (to the extent that you aren't really you anymore)

See: www.braininjury.org.au - Impaired Self Awareness - Fact Sheet

If this is the case, then your consciousness and personality and whatever are all gone when you die. Its probably something like a dreamless sleep. (QUOTE).

Those are good points. And we should not get into religious ideas about a soul here in the science forum.

The idea is that once something comes into exsistance it must remain in existance in some form or another. The facts that you stated about it changing does not alter that concept, if the concept is a true and is realistic. I am asking that of consciousness.

The concept ( and/or fact ) that consciousness depends on the exsistance of the brain, in an undamaged condition, is proof that consciousness cannot exsist forever as a particular unit of being. I guess the energy that is operationable inside a brain would continue to exsist without that case (the skull) in some format? I would speculate that consciousness is an effect of energy - somehow?

Also, can consciousness of the moment at hand seperate from memory and still exsist but only in a different way? Can sub-consciousness continue to exsist without what we call the "waking consciousness" or the one that we think is us thinking?

[Technosoul]

Quote by: LookToTheFuture How about the human brain is just a complex mix of chemicals, elements and electrical impulses that merely give the impression of conciousness. This would mean that the soul, in an eternal sense, does not exist. If your brain gets damaged and this in turn screws with the neural pathways then your personality may appear different to others. This would suggest that the brain is the machine that gives us the ability to assimilate information from our surroundings and from that ,and parental DNA, form who we. Also on the god thing. How do explain that the rapid increase of people on the planet verses the number of souls? Are there infinite souls or at some point will we run out of 'dormant souls' and people will then just give birth to dribbling vegetables with no soul and therefore no mind or personality or will birth be put on hold until another soul comes on to the market? Of course i can't offer any proof on this front so sadly it is only my belief and opinion which i base on my previous experiences, teachings and perception of the real world.

That is something we debated a long time ago as people wondered if a human clone would have a soul or not, or a clone of the soul that is in the person being cloned. If souls come from heaven and return to heaven and then if you have a large population growth of the physical bodies of humans we would end up with more bodies then they had souls to reincarnate for those bodies, unless they have a soul manufacturing plant in heaven. Sorry about the "off topic" migration into religion/philosophy topics.

But is consciousness bio-degradable such that it can be re-used in some manner even if it changes it's "content/context" as it might now be in a human brain?

[Technosoul]

Quote by: gallo That presumes that it actually deserves some degree of respect. What, exactly, is "our mind's spirit of consciousness?" What does that mean? Since "biodegradable" refers to something that is physical, I presume that you think that "our mind's spirit of consciousness" is a physical thing: a box of wood, a mountain, an arm or a leg, and "our mind's spirit of consciousness." Can you give an example of an actual observation, or measurement of "our mind's spirit of consciousness?" Do you think that transmutate is a word? Do you mean that our body will decay? If that is what you meant, why did you use words that mean something else. The carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and other elements in our bodies will continue to be carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen, etc. There is no transmutation (transmutation is a real word). I'm not sure where you are going with this. How are preservatives relevant? Not a well stated question. Are you asking about my pets, both current and past, who are and have been perfectly self aware. Does consciousness have physical existence? Could it possibly be the result of a complex system of chemical and electrical signals generated by living cells? See above. But we don't assume that. We just don't have any evidence that it is a real, physical entity rather than the effect of our brain. We can't assume that it won't return to nothingness (whether we call it nothingness or not) without any evidence that consciousness is a physical entity. When the physical processes that produce consciousness cease, then consciousness goes away. Brain damaged people who once used to be conscious no longer are. My dog is more aware than some. Where did their consciousness go? If consciousness were a physical entity, then it would not cease to exist because of brain damage. Holy crap! Have you never heard of Alzheimer's disease? I can guarantee that even without Alzheimer's, you will forget a lot. I was once fluent in Spanish (I lived in Mexico) - native speakers didn't know that I wasn't a native. I couldn't order breakfast today. We do forget whether you think so or not. If you mean memory and consciousness, then they are gone long before the brain begins to bio-degrade. Is there a point? You sure try to sound scientific - without much success. When we die the chemical and electrical processes that produce consciousness cease. There is no physical entity that has ever been shown to exist. No. There is no evidence for that. So, when you turn off a light switch, where did the light go? Now you are trying to load the question by pretending that consciousness is somehow physical. It does exist as an effect of highly complex functions of the brains of higher animals. And you should have done so. But it isn't if you think that consciousness is something more that the function of complex brain. False dichotomy as a result of shallow thinking. Why not? It's a silly question.

Please note that I am not trying to make a statement of fact or a theory to be debated about, I am asking a question. Silly or not I think it is an interesting question. But being that your consicousness does not really exsist other then as an effect, then how can you answer my silly question?

But otherwise I agree with what you wrote 99 percent. ( sorry, no proof for the stat used ).

It is interesting that evolution evolved a switch like the one used for turning a house light on and off. So that consciousness can be turned on and off. Such as when we sleep, have a dream, and then wake up as our brain somehow turns that switch back on. Of course it is not a actual switch like the one used for light bulbs. And light is basically a reflection of the sun which has not turned off or on for a while now. Which energy is somehow reproduced by our human invention of the light bulb. (I would guess). Not sure if we should use human inventions to explain nature.

I would assume that consciousness started off when a single cell reacted to surrounding stemulation (s) and those reactions later resulted in a sense of self awareness, somewhere in the evolutionary process.
And then a more complex network of reactions evolved that resulted in what I would term "consciousness" which is more or less rooted in self awareness, as a by-effect of evolved senses reacting to everything around them and then combined into it, it being our self (or any other life form with simular evolutionary results).

(best I can do without a degree in biology). I propose this not as a therory but just as part of a question or potential answer to a question.

Peter Russell and other scientists once proposed that our memory becomes part of a "global consciousness" (which also cannot be detected by science technology). He put forth some evidence for that due to studies of animal behaviorism. His work mostly pre-dated what science now knows about DNA. And people made a new-age religion out of his theory. His theory was never accepted as worthwhile by mainstream science.

Is our consciousness really aware that it does not exsist as anything more then just an effect? Perhaps so, that would be enlightened consciousness, I guess? Somehow the energy of consciousness become like a light bulb to produce the enlightenment it needs to see with? Or is that taking it too far outside of logic into sillyness?

Now I would view consciousness as the "crowning glory of evolution" and it is odd that the end product of the sum total of evolution is to create the deception of exsistance. If such is the case as I just presented it, and just thought of it in that light, based on my idea that human consciousness is close to the peak of current evolutionary happenings.

Again, note that I am not making a point, but rather asking a question.

[LookToTheFuture]

Quote by: Technosoul But is consciousness bio-degradable such that it can be re-used in some manner even if it changes it's "content/context" as it might now be in a human brain?

That is what i was trying to say in my first post. In my opinion what we think of as conciousness is simply electrical impulses in the brain which stimulate the release of certain chemicals that in effect cause a certain reaction within the brain. When the brain dies the electrical impulses cease and so do the production of those chemicals.
If we do survive in any sense it will only be through the dispersion of our atoms back to 'mother earth' at which point we become part of the cycle of life. Grass roots draw some of our atoms out of the soil, rabbits eat the grass that contain some of our atoms... and so forth. I know that really only explains the material part of things so here goes with the other half.
At the point of death there is energy within the human body that by the law of "conservation of energy" must then transfer into another form of energy or simply transfer as the same form of energy but to something else. I would say the chemical bit is obviously seen in a dead body. the chemicals produce gasses and the like as a form of transference. All i can assume for the brains electrical energy is that it disipates into the surrounding area at the time of death and must transform into heat energy. By that rational if the energy changes to a different form then i would say that a surviving conciousness is unlikely and probably just as unlikely that it will ever be returned to a form of conciousness we would recognise. I suppose that means to me when your dead your dead.

[Jack]

So, when you turn off a light switch, where did the light go?

That's just a failure to properly perceive reality. You aren't turning off the light, you're turning on the dark. The light's still there, it's just overwhelmed by the dark.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Isherwood That's just a failure to properly perceive reality. You aren't turning off the light, you're turning on the dark. The light's still there, it's just overwhelmed by the dark.

And if I turn on the darkness and my cat can still see enough light to move about, what does that tell us? That the difference between light and darkness is in the eye of the beholder?

Also, relative to this topic (and I assume you followed it a bit before posting) I would ask this. Which one represents consciousness, the darkness or the light? What if consciousess, like darkness is always here but we switch on uncousciousness?

If we flip flop our theroy upside down and back to front then we have a whole new interpertation of reality to concider.

Is the difference between consciousness and uncounsciousness only in the eye of the beholder?

[Technosoul]

Quote by: LookToTheFuture That is what i was trying to say in my first post. In my opinion what we think of as conciousness is simply electrical impulses in the brain which stimulate the release of certain chemicals that in effect cause a certain reaction within the brain. When the brain dies the electrical impulses cease and so do the production of those chemicals. If we do survive in any sense it will only be through the dispersion of our atoms back to 'mother earth' at which point we become part of the cycle of life. Grass roots draw some of our atoms out of the soil, rabbits eat the grass that contain some of our atoms... and so forth. I know that really only explains the material part of things so here goes with the other half. At the point of death there is energy within the human body that by the law of "conservation of energy" must then transfer into another form of energy or simply transfer as the same form of energy but to something else. I would say the chemical bit is obviously seen in a dead body. the chemicals produce gasses and the like as a form of transference. All i can assume for the brains electrical energy is that it disipates into the surrounding area at the time of death and must transform into heat energy. By that rational if the energy changes to a different form then i would say that a surviving conciousness is unlikely and probably just as unlikely that it will ever be returned to a form of conciousness we would recognise. I suppose that means to me when your dead your dead.

From a scientific standpoint, which is what I requested, you seem to have hit the nail on the head (so to speak). That answer makes sense to me.