rap is NOT music!

[shawmutt]

Wait a sec, back up to your last post. What exactly are you asking to be cited?

[lsbskins1]

Rap is music. It may be a form you do not enjoy, it may be a form that does not impress you, it may be a form that is less complex than other forms, but it is music just the same. It is an art form that takes it's own kind of talent. It is like a football player saying golf isn't a sport. I have been around this attitude all of my life. I spent 6 years of my life in school bands. Played the saxaphone, thank you very much. Some people say the saxaphone isn't a "real" insturment because it is not in classical orchestra. Jazz isn't music because it does not follow strict forms. These attitudes, in my expierence, generally come from someone steeped in a particular form who feels that form does not get the "respect" (code for commercial success) it deserves. In my opinion, music is art and the importance of art is it's ability to effect. If it brings an audience joy or makes someone feel passion or sorrow or makes them think about something, it is doing it's job. It's art. If a form of sonic performance does those things, it is music.

[hairwire]

Quote by Nemiroff: No musical scale, progression, or whatever other terminology music uses, rap usually has none of it.

I presume from this comment that you are not fully aware of musical terminology? In which case you shouldn't use it, because despite that fact that I too severely dislike most rap, most do use musical scales and certainly they have chord progressions, even if the instruments in question are not and full and luscious as some of us would like.

Even then, music at its base deifiniton is Organised Sound.

I have just downloaded some rap instrumentals, and I'm sorry to burst the bubble here, but it has all of the very things you claimed it did not. It's just not the best.

In fact I'm going to and delete them now for I have no desire for them to be wasting valuable memory space.

[grandpa]

I want to set myself up by suggesting a candidate for most skilled rap group:
MySpace.com - Collective Efforts - Atlanta, Georgia - Hip Hop / Rap / Soul - www.myspace.com/collectiveefforts

They're not a "booty rap" group, which is one positive.
There are others, if you can find them.

Grandpa h.

[Nemiroff]

I said there are exceptions to everything. Kanye west uses actual music, and doesn't just sing about booty and guns. But the vast majority aren't. They seem more like really bad poetry. It's just too simple even compared to other simple styles of music. I haven't convinced anyone and I stated all my points. It's definetly somewhere in the hazy distinction between music and poetry.

I don't want people to think that I'm being descriminatory by saying this, once again, poetry is no less of an art the music, and rap has the potential to be really good at both, some rappers like kanye have relatively complex music as far as I can remember from the only album of his I've heard. While biggy and especially 2pac, went for the more poetic approach. All of them were or are extremely talented, and if the rappers today would stop selling out and actually tried to make something deep, some different subjects, and quite a few other changes, rap could be a very exciting and entertaining genre. And so far, although the definitions have become blurred over time, it's been a lot closer to the traditional view of poetry, then music.

Please stop assuming I'm somehow racist for critizing rap, that's a stupid assumption based on the biases of whoever said it.

[another day]

That's fine, now

Can you just admit that your initial thesis of "RAP IS NOT MUSIC" was completely false? And that you just don't like it? Why do some people find it SO difficult to concede even the smallest point and admit when they were wrong and rushed to judgment too callously?

Rap is not spoken word poetry. That is an entirely different thing, and that's NOT music. But when you add a beat, rhythm, chord progressions, instruments - it's MUSIC!! For god's sake..

[grandpa]

Quote by: another day Can you just admit that your initial thesis of "RAP IS NOT MUSIC" was completely false? And that you just don't like it?

Also, he negelects how, even if all of it is "bad poetry" (which I don't agree with), that too can be seen as art.

Grandpa h.

[shawmutt]

They seem more like really bad poetry. It's just too simple even compared to other simple styles of music.

Most recent pop music, with its canned tracks that make up for lack of talent, fits into this description.

Why do some people find it SO difficult to concede even the smallest point and admit when they were wrong and rushed to judgment too callously?

Because this is the internet.

[Derach]

Great topic .... Here's a take from a long time professional musician. There are genres that are better examples of being 'non-musica' than rap ... ie. free jazz (a bunch of stoned out former hippies playing almost random notes and rhythms over other instrumentalists playing their own notes and rhythms). Listen to some Charles Ives. Is that music? ... How about the Partridge family?

Grandpa ... if you want to check out a good rap video ... look up some old Fresh Prince stuff ... 'parents just don't understand' is creative and hillarious.

Rap is more than a redundant beat. It often features very rhythmic bass lines and usually has chord progressions in the form of orchestra hits or brass lines.

Other musically talented rap groups over the years (showing my age here) are:

Arrested Development
Biggy Smalls (as noted above)
TLC (combining singing and rap)
Salt & Peppa
Snoop Dogg/Dr Dre (really anything Dr Dre produced is musical)
Almost anything Puff Daddy produced for a different artist
Eminem

Really countless groups ... I've never heard a rap album that consists only of a drum machine and a poet. They all feature a melody line of some sort and some rhythmic quality beyond being purely mechanical.

I can understand a personal preference against rap, but to deny it is music is to admit you have not been exposed to enough of a variety of the genre to make a sound judgment.

If rap isn't music because it doesn't have enough chord changes or enough melody ... then a barbershop quartet must not be music because they have no instruments ... or a string quartet isn't because they have no rhythm section.

Music, to me, is an organized series of sounds that (like any art form) elicits an emotional reaction from an audience. If you HATE rap, you admit to its artistic value ... IMO.

[Derach]

YouTube - DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince-Parents Just Don't Understand

[Nemiroff]

That's fine, now Can you just admit that your initial thesis of "RAP IS NOT MUSIC" was completely false? And that you just don't like it? Why do some people find it SO difficult to concede even the smallest point and admit when they were wrong and rushed to judgment too callously? Rap is not spoken word poetry. That is an entirely different thing, and that's NOT music. But when you add a beat, rhythm, chord progressions, instruments - it's MUSIC!! For god's sake..

i do not hate rap, i hate the mainstream crap rap, just like dont like most mainstream crap of any style, but very few new rap artists are any good in my opnion. and i was saying its not music because it for the most part DOESN'T have chord progression and almost never any isntruments. there are some rap bands that actually have music. and a small handful that probably uses some instruments, but for the most part they lack those 2 and that is why i said its not music, geez people, i've said that in every single one of my posts so far.

Also, he negelects how, even if all of it is "bad poetry" (which I don't agree with), that too can be seen as art.

i said its all poetry, and MOST of it happens to currently be bad poetry. I mean they barely try to rythme anymore, mostly just twisting the way the say words, or just adding an a in the end of everything. or remixing the same song with miniscule differences or an extra 5 rappers instread of making a new one.

If i do like rap, and i do like a few select artists.... i do not like the direction rap seems to be going, and i hope the underground scene is a hell of alot better then whats getting radio time.

i've been saying that for a while rap is art, i simply think that it is poetry, and i stick to that view point... with a few exceptions as always.

[Nemiroff]

i simply said that i feel it is poetry and you all keep yelling rap hater? you all got serious problems with being open minded, this is a debate forumn, should i only stick to politcially correct debates? is questioning the musicallity of rap really that taboo that it can't even be discussed without making accusations about what people like or dont like.

[Kaylor]

Yes rap is music, but in my opinion is so terrible sounding that it hardly counts.

[Ljay23bling]

Quote by: Nemiroff Rap in it's current form, and in any form is has previously existed, with maybe the exception of some underground rapper or group I have never heard of, isn't music. Its just talking to a beat. There is no singing, no change in the beat or progression of any kind! I want someone to show me what part of rap would qualify it as music. And before everyone starts hating and calling me a racist, I'm not insulting rap, mearely trying to define it more accurately, its poetry, and whose to say which is the superior art.

I seriously disagree.

Definition of Music - The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.

Rap is just a different form than all that other music you're referring to.

You don't need to have great vocal skills and a high pitched voice in order to succeed in rap, but that's not to negate or say that it's any where near easy to do, nor less than other musical variations.

I will admit that the industry has been plagued by a high amount of "rappers" who rap about bitches and hoes, and tricks and fucking girls' clits. But, back to the point, for the rappers who I highly respect, who share and hold quality talents, I'd have to counter your argument.

The art of rap is the lyrics themselves. Despite the aspect of the industry itself declining in that case (lyrics), your point can have an argument and some validity to it. However, as I say, the lyrics are more complex then singing itself. I'd say it is challenging as is learning how to sing efficiently... to write well developed lyrics, mix with the beat, and to sustain maximum efficiency with the beat to produce solid flow.

You can question whether rap is music in the eyes and era of guys like Soulja Boy, but there's no need to question rappers, MCs by the likes of old rappers such as Run DMC (as mentioned). These rappers produce lyrics that have meaning to them, messages about life, messages about their own lives, etc.