Deconstructing "conspiracy"

[Baconup]

Good Post Clarence,

That's just it. Whoever up there said that us conspiracy theorists have low-self esteem I think you may be referring to the UFO and 9/11 wacko's.

Lets talk about better conspiracy's that have taken place. The Federal Reserve is the best one that comes to my mind.

What I do know is that Thomas Jefferson was very much against it.

Without getting to far into it. I know there was a banking "scare" in 1907 that there are no real answers as to how it happened. Then in 1910 some very prominent bankers and congressman came up with an the Federal Reserve Act which is in no way, no matter, what they say constitutional. Call it an Agenda call it whatever you want but to me personally the truth is deeper and scarier then what any history books say. Just remember this, the Federal Reserve receives Billions every year from interest. Why on earth would anyone not conspire to want government granted permission to monopolize banking in the U.S.?

[Athena]

I am not sure what you mean by conspiracy theory, but I think the following is information that should not be ignored:

16 of the Best Books and Articles on: Military-Industrial Complex as selected by Questia librarians 1. The Political Economy of Defense: Issues and Perspectives » Read Now by Andrew L. Ross. 232 pgs. ...As the study of the interface between economics, defense and politics proliferates, this collective volume sets out to identify the nature of political economy of defense... 2. Responding to Defense Dependence: Policy Ideas and the American Defense Industrial Base » Read Now by Erik R. Pages. 191 pgs. ...The 1970s and 1980s witnessed growing concern in the United States regarding the relative decline of the American economy and, for defense planners, the military's growing... 3. Eisenhower's Warning: The Military-Industrial Complex Forty Years Later, in World Policy Journal » Read Now by William D. Hartung. 6 pgs. ...Eisenhowers Warning The Military-Industrial Complex Forty Years Later...influence" exerted by the "military-industrial complex." He cautioned that...present and future of... 4. The Pentagon Basks in Triumph: The Famed Military-Industrial Complex Has Won, While the Diplomats Have Lost All Clout, in New Statesman » Read Now by John Kampfner. 1 pgs. ...in triumph: the famed military-industrial complex has won, while the diplomats...or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the...heavy armoury. The... 5. An Encyclopedia of War and Ethics ("Military-Industrial Complex" p. 300) » Read Now by Donald A. Wells. 539 pgs. ...This is the first encyclopedia that critically surveys the ethics of warmaking from a variety of perspectives. Noted experts raise basic questions about what is "just" in... 6. Fortress America: The American Military and the Consequences of Peace » Read Now by William Greider. 220 pgs. 7. Dismantling the Cold War Economy » Read Now by Ann Markusen, Joel Yudken. 316 pgs. ...United States. 2. Military- industrial complex--United States. 3. Defense...current state of Americas military-industrial complex could not have been...mandate to rein in... 8. Defense Addiction: Can America Kick the Habit? » Read Now by Sanford Gottlieb. 214 pgs. ...States-Defenses-ELonomic aspects. 2. Military- industrial complex--United States. 3. Defense...creating an all-powerful military-industrial complex, Eisenhowers... 9. Business and the State in International Relations (Chap. 2 "The Military-Industrial Complex, Sectoral Conflict, and the Study of U.S. Foreign Policy") » Read Now by Ronald W. Cox. 269 pgs. 10. Arm in Arm: The Political Economy of the Global Arms Trade (Chap. 4 "The Spread of Military Industry") » Read Now by William W. Keller. 205 pgs. 11. Toward a Revolution in Military Affairs? Defense and Security at the Dawn of the Twenty-First Century (Chap. 10 "The Military-Industrial Correlates of the RMA: the Evolution of Agile Manufacturing") » Read Now by Thierry Gongora, Harald Von Riekhoff. 212 pgs. ...The Revolution in Military Affairs (RMA), unleashed by the integration of information technologies into weapons systems, military units, and operations is a phenomenon with... 12. The Price of the Past: Russia's Struggle with the Legacy of a Militarized Economy » Read Now by Clifford G. Gaddy. 250 pgs. ...Today, Russia produces only a small fraction of the arms it did five years ago, but militarization of its economy is hardly an issue of the past. As this book clearly... 13. Gorbachev's Reforms: De-Stalinization through Demilitarization » Read Now by Susanne Sternthal. 230 pgs. ...Gorbachev's reforms in domestic and foreign policy were motivated by the overriding objective of making Soviet socialism a legitimate and viable alternative among the world... 14. Captives of the Cold War Economy: The Struggle for Defense Conversion in American Communities » Read Now by John J. Accordino. 205 pgs. ...In 1989 the Cold War ended, but America's Cold War economy did not end with it. Accordino examines how economic interests and powerful political forces in the federal... 15. Warhogs: A History of War Profits in America » Read Now by Stuart D. Brandes. 371 pgs. ...The author masterfully blends intellectual, economic, and military history into a fascinating discussion of a great moral question for generations of Americans: Can some... 16. Eisenhower's War of Words: Rhetoric and Leadership ("New Light on Eisenhower's Farewell Address" p. 322) » Read Now by Martin J. Medhurst. 322 pgs. ...Griffin argues that the warning about the military-industrial complex "illlustrates Eisenhowers hidden hand rhetorical...Although the president warned that this new "... » Click here for more books and articles on the military-industrial complex

Add to this Hilary Clinton has sold out to the weapons industry and is receiveing huge contributions from these people, who hope to get future government contracts.

[Athena]

Quote by: Baconup Good Post Clarence, That's just it. Whoever up there said that us conspiracy theorists have low-self esteem I think you may be referring to the UFO and 9/11 wacko's. Lets talk about better conspiracy's that have taken place. The Federal Reserve is the best one that comes to my mind. What I do know is that Thomas Jefferson was very much against it. Without getting to far into it. I know there was a banking "scare" in 1907 that there are no real answers as to how it happened. Then in 1910 some very prominent bankers and congressman came up with an the Federal Reserve Act which is in no way, no matter, what they say constitutional. Call it an Agenda call it whatever you want but to me personally the truth is deeper and scarier then what any history books say. Just remember this, the Federal Reserve receives Billions every year from interest. Why on earth would anyone not conspire to want government granted permission to monopolize banking in the U.S.?

You will find vitally important information in the history of the Bank of America. The Bank of America began in San Fransico just before the Great Earthquake the devastated San Fransico. It was started by an Italian and was first called the Bank of Itally. It was for the little man and had to fight laws regulating banks that prevented the little man from accessing loans.

Greenspan was warned the variable interest rate loans would hurt people, but he ignored the warning and now the subprime crisis is a greater economic crisis. Time and again the government has bail out the fat cats who make terrible decisions that hurt the little guy. While little guys and making micro loans to desparately poor people and getting their money back. Why are we blaming the little people hurt by the deceptive financial practices that brought on the subprime crisis? Those in power are not operating in our best interest, and remaining ignorant of these facts while attacking those who speak of them, as mental cases, is not helpful.

[Jack]

Lets talk about better conspiracy's that have taken place.

Please note that in the OP I specifically mentioned that this was not a thread in which to discuss specific conspiracy theories. The forum administrator has asked that those be kept in the group formed for that purpose.

This thread is about the concept of conspiracy theories in general. How they come about, why they persist, what makes them so popular, etc.

[Clarence]

people love mystery.That's why I wear my sunglasses at night.

[Baconup]

The Bank of America is Peanuts compared to what the Rothschilds or "Red Shields" have created in this world of debt.

[Milton Bradley]

A few quotes from people on the inside, or at least who had gained a temporary trust of the establishment.


(edit)


I'm having that unique puntuation conversion problem Sean discovered, so I'll have to edit the post, and post it again later.

[lsbskins1]

Well, like a good, open-minded, free thinker, I take my truth where I find it. I think the people who see conspiracy around every corner are as diverse in their motivations as the perfectly normal people who come to the various religions are diverse in their motivations . Some are easily led, some are searching for that sense of superiority, some are chemically induced paranoids. Humans are often motivated to the same ends by different means. Searching for the one "true" answer is probably wasted effort. It IS facinating to watch the effect of a particularly bizzare conspiracy theory on the devotes. Such passion in the face of rejection and scorn is so very uniquely human, eh? Of course, I understand that there have been, are now and in the furture, will be actual consiracies. But I am reminded , when seeing the post that ridicules those who take take UFO theories seriously while refusing to acknowledge the remotest possibility that their "pet" conspiracy is equally unfounded, of the admonition of Jesus to not ignore the plank in your own eye. It all just makes me ponder the human animal with more facination.

[Clarence]

my kid's Learning with Leapfrog computer uses a qwerty keyboard. He doesn't know the alphabet but enjoys finding "c" for Connor or "j" for Jimi and so forth. He's learning where these letters are. There are some who believe the qwerty setup is not the best possible setup. They are probably right if we were starting fresh. But adults who teach children how to use a keyboard will usually know qwerty. So the children will more or less be indoctrinated to a certain keyboard.


A conspiracy theorist who is just a naturally negative person 20 years from now will point out that qwerty is NOT the best system and the fact that we use it indicates that a certain conspiratorial force has made it that way.

A rational person who obviously knows conspiracies happen, might look at it and decide that qwerty just was used most often by the original computer generation and instead of starting over entirely when teaching the next generation, just stuck with it. Any child born after 1995 more or less will not be able to imagine life without computers. Adults show them how to use the tool with the board they know. No conspiracy is present.

A naturally negative conspiracy theorist will then look towards other more likely examples of conspiracy and decide that the introduction of qwerty in the first place was underhanded and designed to be different so that all keyboards of the future would have to at least pay royalty on the patent.

The realist would then ascribe this to the freemarket and chance.

[Zeebadee]

So conspiracies never occur?

[Clarence]

So conspiracies never occur?

no. they happen all the time, of course.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Clarence no. they happen all the time, of course.

Then why should it be surprising that groups of "conspiracy theorists" form concerning particular subjects where the official explanation doesn't reasonably satisfactorily fit the circumstances of some particular event?

The government has indeed lied to us about events in the past, why wouldn't skepticism be a part of our lives today??

[Nono]

No reason at all.

But there are also (and this is where conspiracy theorism comes in) people who go beyond reasonable skepticism and insist that what seems to be a well-demonstrated case can't be true and that there must be a radically different, string-pulling cause.
An example of this are the moon-hoax people.

I remain skeptical about 911, and am in no doubt that there was a conspiracy of some sort behind the assassinations of JFK and RFK. And the conspiracy behind the assassination of Martin Luther King has been established in a court of law.

So yes, there are conspiracies, but we're under no obligation to make a religion out of it.

[Critter]

(Please note, I skipped through the last 3 pages without reading responses.)

Conspiracy theories are so popular mainly because there's a deeply-ingrained need for some people to know the truth. Some people just take it to the extreme.

On the other hand, others bury their heads in the sand and deny there's anything wrong.



My two pennies.

[ICON]

Deconstructing "conspiracy" This is not a thread about any conspiracy theory in particular. Rather, I'm interested in knowing what people think about conspiracies in general. Why are they so popular? What is it about the human psyche that makes people come up with conspiracy theories? What makes us ignore a simple explanation in favor of a more complicated and convoluted one? Why do you think people will persist in believing conspiracy theories in the face of sometimes overwhelming counter-evidence? I would hope we could avoid useless toss-off answers like, "people are dumb". I'm really interested in the human fascination with conspiracies.

Please, forgive me, but was this topic prompted by a PoliSci101 class? You might as well ask what it is about a magic act that compels the audience to reject the simple/obvious explanation ("It's magic!"), in favor of the more complex/"convoluted" one. Are you aware that most conmen are never prosecuted, because their crimes are deemed "too complex and convoluted for the average juror to understand"? The simplest explanation is not always the truth, and the noblest motive is almost always a lie.

[Compugasm]

Quote by: shawmutt I'm trying to get my head around why anyone would live under such a government if they really believed some of these theories being discussed. I sure as hell wouldn't.

I just found this story that might explain it, in a round-a-bout way:

Hanna Arendt had gone to the Eichmann trial to confront the epitome of evil in her mind and expected to encounter something monstrous, and what she encountered instead was this nondescript little man, a bureaucrat, a technocrat, a guy who arranged train schedules, who, as it turned out, ultimately didn't even agree with the policy that he was implementing, but performed the technical functions that made the Holocaust possible in the efficient manner that it occurred, in a totally amoral and soulless way, purely on the basis of excelling at the function and getting ahead within the system that he found himself….He was a good family man, in his way. He was loved by his children, participated in civic activities, was in essence the good German. And she, Arendt, said, therein lies the evil. Anyone in a mindless, faceless, bureaucratic environment could be "the Nazi"…Eichmann symbolized the people that worked under him; the train conductors, the technicians who were making the gas, all of these people who didn't directly kill anybody, but performed functions that made the Holocaust possible.

I think this explains why people would live with such a government.

[Jack]

Please, forgive me, but was this topic prompted by a PoliSci101 class? You might as well ask what it is about a magic act that compels the audience to reject the simple/obvious explanation ("It's magic!"), in favor of the more complex/"convoluted" one.

No, it was prompted by a desire to question some people's fascination with conspiracies. I might as well have asked what it is about a magic act that causes people to believe magic is real. While there's a degree of gullibility in common to both situations, there's also a major difference. Nearly every adult who watches a magic act knows that it's not magic. We are amazed at our inability to figure out how it was done, but I know of no one who watched a magic act and suddenly convinced themselves magic was real. This isn't the case with conspiracy theorists.

Are you aware that most conmen are never prosecuted, because their crimes are deemed "too complex and convoluted for the average juror to understand"?

I'm not only unaware of that being the case but I don't accept that it's the case. Can you provide any examples?

BTW-welcome to Volconvo.

[ICON]

I'm not only unaware of that being the case but I don't accept that it's the case. Can you provide any examples?

Here's an example of the principle I was illustrating:

Since stopping them involves complex financial investigations that take lots of resources, they are very difficult to prosecute. If a con artist is caught, there is usually a civil case but no jail time. The most that will happen is the scammers will be ordered to pay restitution, although even that rarely occurs. Typically they just promise it won't happen again.[read more:http://www.fldfs.com/consumers/unlic...sselling.html]

If you want more examples, do your own homework. The truth of the matter isn't difficult to uncover...if you're interested in truth.

No, it was prompted by a desire to question some people's fascination with conspiracies.

Like the obsession that prosecutors have with conspiracies? Want another example? Here ya go:

Conspiracy is one of the most commonly filed charges in terrorism cases: NPR: Conspiracy Charge Common in Terrorism Cases

Ironic, isn't it, that the 9-11 hijackers would have been charged with "conspiracy," had they survived?

I might as well have asked what it is about a magic act that causes people to believe magic is real. While there's a degree of gullibility in common to both situations, there's also a major difference. Nearly every adult who watches a magic act knows that it's not magic.

And nearly every intelligent adult is skeptical of the official version of events, whenever the validity of gov't power and authority is at stake.

We are amazed at our inability to figure out how it was done, but I know of no one who watched a magic act and suddenly convinced themselves magic was real. This isn't the case with conspiracy theorists.

I can think of many anti-conspiracists who have convinced themselves that the laws of physics and probability took a vacation on 9-11.

BTW-welcome to Volconvo.

Thanks.

[RealRockingham]

I hate this concept... the concept that "all conspiracies are fakes". The simple fact is, we know conspiracies happen. A conspiracy, is essentially, an attempt by the government or another organization to fool the general population. The educated have plenty of perfect examples of this, for example the Iraqi invasion on the pre-text of WMD.

What people should criticise is crackpot conspiracies like the UFOstyle ones, which give suspicion of any kind a bad name. Conspiracies, or on other words lies, occur and are bought by the general public on a daily basis. The may be a debate of the potential scale and content at which a lie can be succesfully prevented form leaking, however.

[Jack]

http://www.fldfs.com/consumers/unlic...sselling.html is a dead link.

Ironic, isn't it, that the 9-11 hijackers would have been charged with "conspiracy," had they survived?

That's conspiracy used in a different context. Two or more people conspiring to commit a crime isn't the type of conspiracy I was talking about.

And nearly every intelligent adult is skeptical of the official version of events, whenever the validity of gov't power and authority is at stake.

The reason for that skepticism of government is the topic here.