Deconstructing "conspiracy"

[Nono]

Quote by: Joker I think that people (maybe not all people) start and make up conspiracy theories because they may have low self esteem (I can't think of another way to put it) and being in the "know" may make them feel better about themselves.

Yes it does, as in "Don't be fooled by the 'official version. They ain't fooling me."

Of course, there remain the cases of people who correctly identify the cause of some event as a conspiracy because, in fact, it resulted from a conspiracy.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Jokerjdude I don't know how the thing I am about to not sound rude or for that matter make sense but I'll give it a try. (Please don't take this the wrong way anyone) I think that people (maybe not all people) start and make up conspiracy theories because they may have low self esteem (I can't think of another way to put it) and being in the "know" may make them feel better about themselves. I hope that makes sense! (It probably doesn't)

It makes plenty of sense. The sheer nature of the condescending conspiracy theorist prattling on and on about how we need to do the research is evidence enough of this phenomena.

I never knew how many people in the 15-24 age range on the net were structural engineers with expertise in controlled demolitions / implosions before 9/11.

[Nono]

OK, Chaos. I rest my case about the subject of this thread being 911, not conspiracy theories as such.

[Chaossaber314]

I never denied it was. It's the foremost conspiracy today.

[Milton Bradley]

OK, I figure now that you detractors have had your fun, I'll offer up the other side of the story.


Why am I inclined to believe that conspiracies exist? Well, quite simply, I think it would be stupid to think otherwise. When talking about governmnet conspiracy, it's simlpe odds, and the law of averages. One would certainly be inclined to think that a governing body could get some things right occasionally, but when you look at the track record of all recent legislation, you see it's all negative when viewed from a certain perspective, and that would be from the libertarian perspective. That perspective is imporatnt because it was that ideology that created this free society.


I see conspiracies all around me including a few off the top of my head, which have mostly been discussed here.


I would say a conspiracy exists where certain people work to prevent gays from being able to legally marry.


I'd say there was also a conspiracy to keep gays out of the Boy Scouts.


I see a conspiracy to keep gays from being able to serve openly in the US military.


Anybody doubt any of those conspiracies?


I see a conspiracy to exploit cheap labor wherever it exists.


I see a conspiracy to exploit the Third Worlds resources.


I see a conspiracy to keep Third Party candidates out of the debates, and marginalized to the point of unelectability.


I see a conspiracy to keep certain drugs illegal to all but a few entities, so that only licensed manufacturers can profit from distributing "illegal" substances.


I see a conspiracy to defraud Americans through the Federal Reserve.


I see a conspiracy to concentrate power in the Executive branch of government.


I see a conspiracy where virtually every person who sits on the Board of Directors for virtually every Fortune 500 company also sits on another Board of some other major financial force. Many of those same people are appointed by the new President each election cycle to sit on the Council on Foreign Relations, and also The World Bank, and other NGO's ( Non Governmental Organization ) that end up creating legislation, or policy that pertains to doing business with foreign entities. ( Instead of Congress creating these laws the legal way )


Conspiracies abound, you just have to be willing to look beyond the nightly news.

[Jack]

I would say a conspiracy exists where certain people work to prevent gays from being able to legally marry. I'd say there was also a conspiracy to keep gays out of the Boy Scouts. I see a conspiracy to keep gays from being able to serve openly in the US military.

I don't know that I'd consider the results of cultural bias and religious intolerance conspiracies. I think of a conspiracy as far more grand in scope, far more convoluted in execution, far less publicized.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Isherwood I don't know that I'd consider the results of cultural bias and religious intolerance conspiracies. I think of a conspiracy as far more grand in scope, far more convoluted in execution, far less publicized.

Agreed. I think he's confusing "Conspiracy" with "Agenda".

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Isherwood I don't know that I'd consider the results of cultural bias and religious intolerance conspiracies. I think of a conspiracy as far more grand in scope, far more convoluted in execution, far less publicized.

A "conspiracy" is a group of people working toward the same ultimate goal.


Conspiracies exist.

[shawmutt]

Quote by: Milton Bradley A "conspiracy" is a group of people working toward the same ultimate goal. Conspiracies exist.

You're begging the question. What exactly are you trying to state here?

[Nono]

Quote by: Ish I think of a conspiracy as far more grand in scope, far more convoluted in execution, far less publicized.

Indeed, not publicized at all, involving backchannels and hidden levers.

Quote by: Chaos (Milton is) confusing "Conspiracy" with "Agenda".

I agree, though some agendas are achieved by means of conspiracy (see above).

Quote by: Milton A "conspiracy" is a group of people working toward the same ultimate goal.

No. That comes under the heading "movement" or "campaign".

A conspiracy is by definition secret. Secrecy may be needed simply to guarantee success. But it's also often needed to cover up doings that are morally questionable if not outright illegal.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Nono A conspiracy is by definition secret. Secrecy may be needed simply to guarantee success. But it's also often needed to cover up doings that are morally questionable if not outright illegal.

So what "agendas" get removed from the list under your ctriteria. The anti-gay agenda?


Still, those conspiracies listed were but the tip of the iceberg.

[Milton Bradley]

Just because an agenda is out in the open, like the World Bank, or the Federal Reserve, does not mean that it does not qaulify as conspiracy. Because more often than not, it was a conspiracy until it was implemented on the population without their approval.

[Clarence]

Former "Dateline" reporter blasts NBC - Yahoo! News

NEW YORK (Hollywood Reporter) - A former "Dateline NBC" correspondent claims that in the aftermath of September 11, the network diverted him from reporting on al Qaeda and instead wanted him to ride along with the country's "forgotten heroes," firefighters. John Hockenberry, who was laid off from "Dateline" in early 2005, wrote in this month's Technology Review that on the Sunday after the September 2001 attacks he was pitching stories on the origins of al Qaeda and Islamic fundamentalism. He claimed that then-NBC programming chief Jeff Zucker, who came into a meeting Hockenberry was having with "Dateline" executive producer David Corvo, said "Dateline" should instead focus on the firefighters and perhaps ride along with them a la "Cops," the Fox reality series. According to Hockenberry, Zucker said "that he had no time for any subtitled interviews with jihadists raging about Palestine."

perhaps if the average american was a little more edumacated on the crisis, we could have made better use of our rescources. ie, not going to war in Iraq.

Here in this article I just pulled off yahoo's main page, two men have made a decision that effects millions. They would only need to be following an unknown agenda to be defined as conspiracy. This is how it works newbs.


ps. Little Jimi didn't even notice that we had his present in the same cart he was riding in. It's easy to fool children and adults who already think they know what's up.

[ruksak]

Quote by: Jokerjdude I don't know how the thing I am about to not sound rude or for that matter make sense but I'll give it a try. (Please don't take this the wrong way anyone) I think that people (maybe not all people) start and make up conspiracy theories because they may have low self esteem (I can't think of another way to put it) and being in the "know" may make them feel better about themselves. I hope that makes sense! (It probably doesn't)

Actually I believe you are on the right track. Concerning specifically unfounded conspiracies such as 9/11. I believe that many people subscribe to, and preach toward, such theories as a form of self inflating. As if to say to other "I know something that you do not. I am above most of you because I see through that which most of you do not".

[Clarence]

thats what all online conversation is for, silly.

[Jack]

One thing I don't understand about conspiracy theories in general and those who believe them; why would any logical, sensible person want to live in a country where they claimed to know that their own government was responsible for presidential assassinations, the killing of thousands of citizens for no better reason that to justify a war (which Bush could have done without 9/11, he's shown no respect for the Constitution, after all), lied about space exploration, on and on and on.

That, to my mind, would be like continuing to live at home when you knew your parents were mass murderers.

[Clarence]

why would any logical, sensible person want to live in a country where they claimed to know that their own government was responsible for presidential assassinations, the killing of thousands of citizens for no better reason that to justify a war (which Bush could have done without 9/11, he's shown no respect for the Constitution, after all), lied about space exploration, on and on and on.

because we can elect different leaders and those criminals can face the business end of due process.

Is that a love it or leave I hear, Ish?


I'm doing what I can. In another time of man, there would be little one could do. I believe some things happen for the reason. The internet ultimately is communication. Isn't it bizarre that this mass communication device comes along when we need it most?


I don't understand why some people can lump people who could believe a conspiracy with all people who believe all conspiracies.

I honestly don't know anything about JFK or UFO's. Never cared to look.

[Jack]

Is that a love it or leave I hear, Ish?

Not at all. Like I said, it's more a question of why they'd want to live under such a corrupt system. If I believed 50% of the theories I've heard in my life, I'd be in fear for my life daily. I'd want to move to some place safer.

It makes me wonder if they actually have doubts about their own beliefs, so they hesitate to act on their fears.

I'm trying to get my head around why anyone would live under such a government if they really believed some of these theories being discussed. I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Isherwood One thing I don't understand about conspiracy theories in general and those who believe them; why would any logical, sensible person want to live in a country where they claimed to know that their own government was responsible for presidential assassinations, the killing of thousands of citizens for no better reason that to justify a war (which Bush could have done without 9/11, he's shown no respect for the Constitution, after all), lied about space exploration, on and on and on. That, to my mind, would be like continuing to live at home when you knew your parents were mass murderers.

Because it's our country. We are the true patriots, true to the ideals, and the concepts this nation was created to be. Those others with positions of power are like the policies they implement, and the rhetoric they espouse, fascist, and authoritarian.


You should know everybody doesn't just roll over, and play dead.

[Clarence]

Quote by: Isherwood It makes me wonder if they actually have doubts about their own beliefs, so they hesitate to act on their fears.

I feel too insignificant to even touch the enemy I've discovered. For example, I have to fight 100 year old propaganda to discuss my car with the average person. The diesel engine was designed by the man named Diesel to run off vegetable oil. 100 years later you can't find senior citizen that believes there's any other fuel than fossil fuel. Actually diesel fuel as we know it requires refinement where vegetable oil requires none. Henry Ford designed his engines to run off ethanol. sound familiar? He was convinced otherwise somehow. We could be driving cars that run off things we grow. Why don't we? I think it goes waaaaay back. There's a movement or an agenda. I read about illuminati or this or that I don't know. All I know is it's bigger than me and older than this century. It seems to be religious or something


Rudolph Diesel fell off a boat and disapeared into the North Sea mysteriously in 1913, btw. At the turn of the century, there were a handful of people diesel's invention threatened. I believe his engine threatened the economic livelyhood of an agenda not just people. I can't prove it. I must be wrong. ni-night