Animal rights

[sevendogs]

I agree that cows are not happy, if they live in American dairy farms or feed lots. However, it have never been so until industrial urbanized heavily overcrowded culture emerged. Imagine beautiful setting in Afiican savanna, Massai family with their cow herd, accompanied by a few dogs, marching on to a new pasture. No fencing or any confinements. It is still so in Mongolia and in a few other countries, where life is like it was 100 or more years ago. On the pictures below a herd of goats in Mongolia and sheep herd in Karakachan region, Bulgaria.

Function of this dog is only guarding against wolves and bears, not herding. Animals are free to go anywhere to find their food, no fences are used at all. However, all animals are tame and would not run away from the camp, where family lives. These are happy animals. Diet of local people is mainly dairy and meat producs.

[Muckraker]

Quote by: gela I don't have a link, only personal experience. My grandparents and my uncle are dairy farmers. The only cruelty I can see is that their calves are taken away from them. But I have to wonder just how connected a mother feels to a calve that shes only had for one day, when she has a calf every year. I just assumed meat cows are kept similarly. They live very easy lives, free of disease and predators. With food always provided for them. I've always had the opinion that death isn't cruel. In the case of humans, its those that are left behind that suffer. However I dont think cows have such strong bonds. That said, I dont really disagree with any of your points: I am considering becoming a vegetarian, once I leave home. Its unfair to ask my parents to cater for me being vegetarian atm.

I know exactly what you mean. My grandparents were dairy farmers in Wisconsin and I had, and have, no problem with the way their cows were treated. They had a small group of possibly 30-40 cows that roamed free in the extensive pastures all day long and were brought into the barn for milking a couple times a day and were able to sleep in the barn at night.

Unfortunately, when my grandpa retired, so did his dairy farm.

The process of raising cattle is much different though. I don't recommend looking into it at all unless you are prepared to become vegetarian. The biggest reason that people continue to eat meat in the United States is not because "it tastes good."

The biggest reason is because they don't know the process and they have no connection to the process. We are absorbed into a culture that simply eats what we are presented without any examination or question. I posed the following question in another thread:

If a group of 100 random American people were to take a tour of a meat factory, do you think it is more likely that one of the meat eaters on the tour will become vegetarian or that one of the vegetarians will become a meat eater based on what they see?

[Muckraker]

Quote by: sevendogs I agree that cows are not happy, if they live in American dairy farms or feed lots. However, it have never been so until industrial urbanized heavily overcrowded culture emerged. Imagine beautiful setting in Afiican savanna, Massai family with their cow herd, accompanied by a few dogs, marching on to a new pasture. No fencing or any confinements. It is still so in Mongolia and in a few other countries, where life is like it was 100 or more years ago. On the pictures below a herd of goats in Mongolia and sheep herd in Karakachan region, Bulgaria. Function of this dog is only guarding against wolves and bears, not herding. Animals are free to go anywhere to find their food, no fences are used at all. However, all animals are tame and would not run away from the camp, where family lives. These are happy animals. Diet of local people is mainly dairy and meat producs.

I agree completely with your points listed here. Animals, both food animals and working animals, in 3rd world cultures do have much better lives. I have no problem with any of that. Just as I have no problem with a hunter walking in the woods to shoot his/her dinner for the next few weeks.

My problem is with the United States. Consumerism, mass consumption, and corporate greed have created a brutal industry here but I think it will get better in the near future.

In the Vietnam war, the government had quite a bit of trouble because it was the first war where average Americans could see what was actually going on during their evening news and in the papers. A whole lot more people will have problems with something when they encounter information about it whereas they may have had no problem when they were ignorant on the topic.

With the vast wealth of information readily available to everyone now, I think more people will be making more decisions regarding what they spend money on as opposed to simply following the herd and doing what everyone always does.

[sevendogs]

Yepp, I eat what my dogs kill. I have sighthounds and they chase, catch and kill rabbits. I pick them up and use for meat. Tasty. One step further: my dogs find and tree squirrels. I come up and shoot them, because i love and respect desire of my dogs to hunt. I pick up squirrels and eat them, when they are dead, of course. I also raise chickens. They lay eggs, I fry and/or cook them (live eggs!). Tasty. I also sometimes catch a chicken and chop its head off. When it is dead, I plucki\ off feathers and prepare it for cooking. Very tasty meal.

[sevendogs]

I eat only those animals, which were happy when they were alive. Our chickens range free and our goats produce quality milk, because they are our pets, too. They follow me in woods along with my dogs. I even shoot squirrels in presnece of goats. My goats are not gun shy.

[Nemiroff]

If a group of 100 random American people were to take a tour of a meat factory, do you think it is more likely that one of the meat eaters on the tour will become vegetarian or that one of the vegetarians will become a meat eater based on what they see?

thats a silly argument, why would a vegetarian become a meat eater after watching how its made even if it were made nicely, he just doesn't eat meat.... the problem is we dont even know what food is anymore. The average mcdonalds fed american sees chicken as a round piece of meat, we dont even see a breast or thigh anymore. watching a chicken getting killed in a regular farm under regular conditions in which people lived in for millenia, and have all witnessed the way they made their own food. the mcdonalds eaters might become vegetarians just from seeing the headless chicken running around. yet chopping off the head was easy and the chicken weak, it used to be the children's chore. Now killing the pig....that makes alot of noise and alot of wrestling.

the methods the factory's use are cruel to the animals, but its benefitial to the poeple. There are billions of people in the world, and its hard to feed them all. theres also limited money to pay for land equipment and workers. obviously we're gonna put ourselves before a chicken, or a cow. I'm not saying its not right, and shouldn't be improved. but they are not completely in the wrong, they could try harder, but they just aren't worrying about the cow.

Nature is crueler then any person can ever be. I once saw a documentary about some sea turtle. It comes to land and lays its eggs, buried in the sand. When the eggs hatch, 70% of the young die just from sufication and starvation because they didn't dig hard enough, or dug in the wrong direction. and most of the ones that make it get flipped over and have their insides pecked out by these birds. Isn't that one of the great infamous tortures that the greek gods inflicted upon the god that gave men fire? happens every year in nature. with no remorse, it was by far the cruelest thing i've ever seen, these things were just born a few minutes ago to darkness, buried before their birth, and then they finally make it to the sunlight, to have their inside pecked out. A tiny cage seems like heaven compared to that no matter how excruciatingly tiny it is. Besides, slaughter houses only kill for food, not fun....