How Many Weapons do you own?

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Praxius My reasons are similar to yours, but I also (and this has nothing to do with the oversensitive folks in this thread) think that guns are cowardly. If you are going to take a life, you watch that life leave the person. If I have the ability to either give a mugger my $20 dummy wallet, stab him, or shoot him, I would give him the $20. Some things just aren't worth it to me. My family will be well cared-for in the event of my death. They will never want for money again. My children could live to 120 and never work a day in their lives, and collect money until they day they die. I have no fear of death, only dying. If that is how I'm supposed to die, then that's how I die. I don't want to, but I'm certainly not going to invite the escalation of violence in the meantime.

But, how would you feel if you found out the next day the guy you gave your throw away money to killed someone that didn't want to give up their money?

Keith

[Osborn F Enready]

Chaos said: Then you negate your claim about talking about what could have been then.

Its your problem that you see absolutes as "close minded", your mistake I might say.

Do you debate life and death are absoultes?

Chaos said: Incorrect. A firearm is used to kill.

I keep arms for defense. I would be killing, in defense, if they were used.

Chaos said: Providing that the weapon was used successfully, the justifiability of said killing is for a jury of your peers to decide. Whether or not you succeed in utilizing the device for its manufactured purpose is not a failure in the premise of the weapon but the result of mechanical or user error, intentional or not.

Most definitely. Being a man of reason I have full confidence in my ability to decide if its necessary or not.

[Chaossaber314]

I hope that, god forbid, should you ever have to use said abilities that a jury of your peers agrees with you.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel How Many Weapons do you own?

1. Brain/Mind
2. Heart/Soul

[J. Askiloupos]

I've also had to. On one hand, it got me a decoration. On the other, I hate that I was in the situation in the first place.

My condolences, Zen.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Keith Hamburger But, how would you feel if you found out the next day the guy you gave your throw away money to killed someone that didn't want to give up their money? Keith

imo:

That person makes their own decisions in life... one can not blame themselves for what other's do. Normally if I did give someone my money (which wouldn't probably happen in a simple fashion) I would have also reported the crime to the police that there's some jerk ass is running around in said location robbing people, and at what time it occured, so they can track him down and arrest the idiot, esspecially if he is doing it continually, they will go after him. (At least where I live)

that's as far as it goes, I did my part, I ain't spiderman where I got all night to fight crime.... I got a job to do during the day. And if I wanted to do that, I'd join the Mounties so I can taser them to death up on my horse.

[ZNFYRH]

Quote by: Keith But, how would you feel if you found out the next day the guy you gave your throw away money to killed someone that didn't want to give up their money?

Bad, of course.

But what's the point of asking me that?

Osborn

You've never had to take a life, and then you criticize my assessment of what it does to the psyche?

Killing is easy when you have no contact with the person.

It's easy when you do.

The difference is how you feel after.

[Kamehameha34]

You've never had to take a life, and then you criticize my assessment of what it does to the psyche? Killing is easy when you have no contact with the person. It's easy when you do. The difference is how you feel after.

Why should anyone endure such a penance just for defending themselves efficiently?

[ZNFYRH]

Kame

For the same reason you feel guilty for breaking up with a girl you don't love, but she loves you dearly.

For the same reason you feel horrible for punishing your children, even when you know their offense was not intentional and that you are teaching them a greater lesson.

I can't explain it.

[Maryjane]

I guess you have to come to terms with if it's guilt or regret you feel? It's a loss of innocence for sure. Sorry Z.

[Osborn F Enready]

ZNYFRH said: You've never had to take a life, and then you criticize my assessment of what it does to the psyche?

No, I criticized the accusation of the cowardice, and regardless of the cost, I choose to use a firearm, as it is one more choice between me and death.

Chaos said: I hope that, god forbid, should you ever have to use said abilities that a jury of your peers agrees with you.

No need to pray for me, I don't buy into that stuff.

As far as the issue, I would rather be alive and risk it, than dead and not have to worry about it.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Kame Why should anyone endure such a penance just for defending themselves efficiently?

Erm... maybe he has a conscience?

Quote by: Osborn No need to pray for me, I don't buy into that stuff.

Meh, figure of speech. I didn't mean it literally.

As far as the issue, I would rather be alive and risk it, than dead and not have to worry about it.

Heh. Well then you have a better opinion of the American Prison System than I do, which I would personally regard as a fate worse than death.

[leviathon435]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready leviathon, is every life valued equally to you? Do you value your mothers life as much as the bum on the street? Do you value your childs life as much as your own? Things that have value, are worth protecting. Those who understand that, often seek to provide themselves with as many choices to perform that task, as possible, with the least room for error. Owning a firearm, and being proficient with it, training yourself to act in the face of danger using action as opposed to inaction, is the best proven method of self-defense. That is why many choose not to relinquish their arms, and even moreso, not at the request of government, who historicly has been the worst abuser of this lack of defense.

I have no children so I can't answer that particular question but of course I value my family higher than some junky looking for his next hit, i am human and infallible. However I still disagree that violence of any kind is the solution to any problem.

Quote by: Keith Hamburger However, if you look at overall crime statistics, total crime increases with a decrease in LEGAL firearm ownership. When criminals can get an advantage with a baseball bat, then you might not have a gun crime, but you will have crime. Hell, if the guy's bigger than you and all he has is his fists, he can take anything he wants from you when guns are illegal. I hear there's a big problem with muggings in the UK, and most aren't even reported because nothing happens to the perps. Actually, there's another problem in the UK. If you resist a criminal at all in the UK you can be punished. Most people in the civilized world would consider it insane to punish someone for trying to protect themselves and their property. Keith

There are no such things as "ghettos" in the UK but there of course poorer inner-city areas where there is a problem as mugging, this is where I live, as a 16year-old, and have lived for half my life. However I have never been mugged and there are good reasons for this, firstly I am not aggorant walking around the streets thinking "I could take him" and so on. Secondly i have some common-sense; if I am around at night I walk with mates and I do not start fights with people-violence follows violence. In my experience the only people who get mugged are the rich idiots who walk around with their expensive phones out and who walk around at dark because they want to be "gangsta".
This obviously does not apply to the people on this forum but I have found it surprisingl easy to avoid violence, the last time I got into a fight was at 9 years old. keith you are also incorrect about your assumption that you are punished if you resist a criminal. This is a perception pervaded by The Sun and other trashy newspapers, reasonable force is allowed.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Kame For the same reason you feel guilty for breaking up with a girl you don't love, but she loves you dearly. For the same reason you feel horrible for punishing your children, even when you know their offense was not intentional and that you are teaching them a greater lesson. I can't explain it.

But why should someone intentionally endure this if their only choices are self defense or death? I've done nothing wrong, I shouldn't be made to subject myself to any repercussions.

Quote by: Chaos Erm... maybe he has a conscience?

Which still leaves unanswered why he would intentionally trigger any compunction for simply defending himself.

[ZNFYRH]

Kame

Have you ever been forced to do something that you find morally reprehensible, Kame?

Something that violates your morals in every way, but you do it for a higher purpose?

You use the word "intentional." I can promise you, it isn't intentional.

I don't know those people from anyone else. Maybe they were desperate, maybe they were having a bad day, maybe they didn't really fight back because they were suicidal, maybe they didn't know how to handle themselves but had to try to take my life because they were ordered to.

I feel guilt over taking a life that, for all intents and purposes, could have been something better. Instead, it ended because it was their turn to lose and my turn to win.

As far as intent goes, that's a feeling to choose to keep if I have to take a life again. I do not want the disconnected coldness that comes from "fire and forget." I believe that when you take a life with your own hands, you see that person for who they are.

I keep that with me so I remember that those people died and could have been something better.

So no... no firearms for me. That doesn't mean I don't have one or two, and it doesn't mean I don't know how to use them.

But it means that I have secured a future for my family as well as I possibly could, and that if I have to lose my life, I will make sure that person who takes it sees me for who I am, and maybe they'll carry that with them.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Heh. Well then you have a better opinion of the American Prison System than I do, which I would personally regard as a fate worse than death.

So, why are you becoming a police officer?

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Milton Bradley So, why are you becoming a police officer?

Hopefully, provided I choose that option, I would only do it temporarily to gain experience before moving on.

Also, there's something to be said about helping effect change from within.

And then there is very real fact that some people really do deserve a fate worse than death. Fortunately, I wouldn't have to deal with these people very often. For the most part, cops deal with menial stuff. Sometimes requiring jail, but jail is not prison.

[J. Askiloupos]

As far as intent goes, that's a feeling to choose to keep if I have to take a life again. I do not want the disconnected coldness that comes from "fire and forget." I believe that when you take a life with your own hands, you see that person for who they are.

I feel that if an honorable way exists to take the life of another human, it is in a fully intentional duel between warriors, not through the destruction of lives through "fire-and-forget" weapons.

Through battle, you learn the truth of your opponent's soul. Nothing is hidden. All is laid bare. Combat is a pure and unrestrainable form of expression.

[Kamehameha34]

I feel guilt over taking a life that, for all intents and purposes, could have been something better. Instead, it ended because it was their turn to lose and my turn to win.

Still no need to subject yourself to even more guilt for defending your life.

As far as intent goes, that's a feeling to choose to keep if I have to take a life again. I do not want the disconnected coldness that comes from "fire and forget." I believe that when you take a life with your own hands, you see that person for who they are.

Romantic notions aside, all that matters to me is that "who they are" is trying to do me harm. I owe absolutely nothing to anybody for defending my life by taking theirs. I will always act in a way that most greatly ensures my safety, provided less than an unreasonable amount of collateral damage results.

[Osborn F Enready]

Leviathon said: However I still disagree that violence of any kind is the solution to any problem.

Not to sound like a smart-alic, but this is because you've never been in the situation where force is the only recognized currency of exchange.

You can't "reason" with people who don't respect or grasp reason.

You can't appease the unappeasable.

You can't fulfill a bottomless quest for bloodlust.(and survive)

I too, being a man of reason, attempt to reason with any reasonable person before force becomes an option, but there are times when force is the only option, and its those times I believe it is in my best intrest to prepare for.

Kameha said: Romantic notions aside, all that matters to me is that "who they are" is trying to do me harm. I owe absolutely nothing to anybody for defending my life by taking theirs. I will always act in a way that most greatly ensures my safety, provided less than an unreasonable amount of collateral damage results.

Well said, and I fully agree.