pbs

[Athena]

Monday the Public Broadcasting Station is doing a program about Athens democracy. Athens democracy lasted about 200 years, and the US democracy is just a little over 200 years old. Both democracies had to defend themselves and both democracies gained a lot of power and prestege as a result of war. Both went on to engage in poorly thought out wars. This bad military judgment was the end of Athens democracy.

[HelioPrime]

Well is democracy already more or less dead on the higher levels?

The world today doesn't have the external threats the greeks had and the masses today are likely far less educated about their own land. Were not going to end as a nation anytime soon, were just going to slip further away from the original ideals of what the nation should be.

[Milton Bradley]

All I have really learned thus far is that you seem to have way too romantic a view of ancient Greece, and the form of pure democracy that it favored.

[HelioPrime]

I think she is trying to point out how alike ancient greece and the US are situation wise.

Can you respond to that OP without resorting to touting mockery on anyone who doesn't march to Ron Paul's tune?

[Milton Bradley]

I'm not mocking anybody, I'm just stating that fact that I think her view of democracy is just a romantic notion, and not an actual mechanism to run a functioning government.

[Kuldeep]

Sommetime back, I have gisted out the the type of democracy Athena wants

IT IS DEMOCRACY WITH INBORN DECIPLINE AND MORALITY !!!

To achieve that the democracy HEAD should be itself perfectly desciplined and full of morality. Those qualities would then flow down to each and every person since qualities and action of the head would remain like a foot print for all to follow.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Kuldeep Sommetime back, I have gisted out the the type of democracy Athena wants IT IS DEMOCRACY WITH INBORN DECIPLINE AND MORALITY !!! To achieve that the democracy HEAD should be itself perfectly desciplined and full of morality. Those qualities would then flow down to each and every person since qualities and action of the head would remain like a foot print for all to follow.

Well wouldn't that be nice?

A leadership with upstanding values and no corruption to set an example for those under them.

[J. Askiloupos]

The problem with democracy, oddly enough, is the exact issue that we find with communism. Working models can be constructed, but one has yet to work correctly, due the factor of the human element. Humans are corrupt, avaricious, and selfish as a species- and it is only once these traits can be suppressed (or weeded out of the higher echelons of government *cough* USA *cough*) that a government such as envisioned by Athena can exist.

[Athena]

Quote by: Milton Bradley All I have really learned thus far is that you seem to have way too romantic a view of ancient Greece, and the form of pure democracy that it favored.

Did you watch the show Milton? Your opinion of me wouldn't be tainted by your opinion of women would it? It you watched the show, you would understand my interest in democracy and WAR. Now that is not very romantic. Sure a Roman soldier is sexy in his leather and metal uniform, but I don't find the insanity of war as romantic. On the other hand democracy results in the rapid advancement of knowledge and technology, and there is a lot to be said for it. Can you discuss the pro's and con's of democracy, or are you limited to character assination?

[HelioPrime]

Limited to some ideal that if Ron Paul were elected the nation would be better off.

Rather the said man would just be a lame duck president, unable to get anything passed through congress. 4 years later he would be voted out and the Dem's would all do the "I told you so, should have elected us."

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena, the program clearly showed the flaws of democracy, the same ones I have pointed out time and time and time again.

Why is it you deny these realities?

Democracy is mob rule.
Democracy has no checks or balances.
Democracy can be easily led astray through disinformation.
Democracy places all people in an equal position, that position being the chopping block of a majority.

I see few, if any redeeming values of democracy as practiced in Athens, other than what we borrowed for our Constitution.

[Athena]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos The problem with democracy, oddly enough, is the exact issue that we find with communism. Working models can be constructed, but one has yet to work correctly, due the factor of the human element. Humans are corrupt, avaricious, and selfish as a species- and it is only once these traits can be suppressed (or weeded out of the higher echelons of government *cough* USA *cough*) that a government such as envisioned by Athena can exist.

Humans are whatever they are taught to be, and especially in a democracy, mass education is vitally important. Unfortunately, the importance of mass education is not well understood and has been shamelessly neglected.

Our freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to say anything we want, whenever we want, because such could be immoral and destroy the whole nation.

We seriously need to improve our understanding of humans and of democracy, and we need to improve our decisions. I am concerned that religion has been the greatest barrier of our democracy, and achieving the human potential. Humans are also compassionate, cooperative, charitable, capable of resolving problems. When someone explains humans in negative terms, I suspect a religious influence that is destructive to democracy and leads to bad decision making. I also think it is insane for people who explain humans in negative terms, to engage in a war with the opinion they are superior and have a right to subject others to their world view. What is wrong with Islam maintaining strick control over people, if we are just the negatives, that people use to argue democracy is not a good idea? Makes our wars in the mid east and objections to Islam ridiculus, because the arguement is in agreement with the need to strictly control humans.

[Athena]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Athena, the program clearly showed the flaws of democracy, the same ones I have pointed out time and time and time again. Why is it you deny these realities? Democracy is mob rule. Democracy has no checks or balances. Democracy can be easily led astray through disinformation. Democracy places all people in an equal position, that position being the chopping block of a majority. I see few, if any redeeming values of democracy as practiced in Athens, other than what we borrowed for our Constitution.

Yes, my love, thank you. God, I am out of time this morning. Rip my heart out, I have to leave when the discussion is just getting good.

The redeeming value of democracy is the rapid advancement of human potential for one thing. Besides, I am very glad I have just as much chance to climb to the top as anyone else. Bill Clinton was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth and didn't have the advantages of Bush. He wasn't perfect, humans aren't, but he does prove what a determine citizen of the US can acheive and that is the other thing that makes democracy great. Time's up- see ya later.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said: Humans are whatever they are taught to be, and especially in a democracy, mass education is vitally important.

That is patently false.

Humans are naturally self-oriented, selfish and strive for self preservation. Society has changed man through reason, but man still does, and will always retain his natural instincts.

Athena said: Unfortunately, the importance of mass education is not well understood and has been shamelessly neglected.

The importance of "mass education", or what is contained in that "mass education"? Individual education is all that really matters, and all education in my opinion should cater to the individual. You can't teach someone who simply doesn't want to learn, which means learning must be made interesting to THEM. People must be shown and have explained how to think for themselves, how to think critically, and how to use logic and logical deduction, and after that they have little trouble seeing how various types of education directly interplay into their lives, their goals and their desires.

Mass education won't work, as not all people are the same, nor will all people understand the same thing from the same lesson. Each person picks things they can relate to, and they assign a value position that will be reflected in recall ability in storing the information.

Individual values and priorities are what shape who we are, and education is only one part of that mix.

Athena said: Our freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to say anything we want, whenever we want, because such could be immoral and destroy the whole nation.

Exaggeration, and false.

You are free to say whatever you want, which is why you have "freedom of speech". However, there are responsibilities associated with speech, so depending on what you say and when, you may have to face consequences of playing with peoples emotions, causing injury to others. (such as yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire, vs when there ACTUALLY IS a fire.)

Athena said: We seriously need to improve our understanding of humans and of democracy, and we need to improve our decisions.

I agree, but the issue is more of getting people to ACCEPT WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW, which many can't because of their subjective, relgious and mystical beliefs affecting their ability to reason.

Athena said: I am concerned that religion has been the greatest barrier of our democracy, and achieving the human potential. Humans are also compassionate, cooperative, charitable, capable of resolving problems. When someone explains humans in negative terms, I suspect a religious influence that is destructive to democracy and leads to bad decision making. I also think it is insane for people who explain humans in negative terms, to engage in a war with the opinion they are superior and have a right to subject others to their world view. What is wrong with Islam maintaining strick control over people, if we are just the negatives, that people use to argue democracy is not a good idea? Makes our wars in the mid east and objections to Islam ridiculus, because the arguement is in agreement with the need to strictly control humans

Democracy is also about strict control, just like religion....

Which is why our forefathers limited BOTH in the way each could affect our system of government.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready That is patently false. Humans are naturally self-oriented, selfish and strive for self preservation.

I wouldn't downplay certain beliefs, though, and how strong they can be (even to the point of negating "self-preservation"). I also wouldn't characterize humankind as simply a self-centered child, though that aspect of existence is made clear, typically by elitist positions.

Grandpa h.

[J. Askiloupos]

Athena, humans certainly posess positive traits as well, but these are generally very well supressed by their inherent nature. True, there are those that seem predisposed towards doing moral good, just as there seem to be members of our race that mantain an apparent bent towards moral evil. However, humans have ever and always shown themselves venal, petty, and weak when called upon to uphold the things that are seen as right and true. We fail miserably in keeping to the standards that we hold in such high esteem, which is why I stated these negative traits as serious obstacles in the path of true democracy's progression.

[Osborn F Enready]

True democracy is a recipe for failure, subjugation and absolute power in the endgame.

[J. Askiloupos]

No, Osborn- true democracy would be a working model of said form of government. Just as working communism has yet to be attained, so is working demos placed barely out of reach by the introduction of the human element. Demos, when complete, would be a wonderful, wonderful thing... Until that day, though, I'll simply sit on my hands and hope for the best. While pushing things along to the best of my limited ability, of course.

[Osborn F Enready]

I would like to see the model you speak of which you think would be so glorious.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Athena Did you watch the show Milton? Your opinion of me wouldn't be tainted by your opinion of women would it? It you watched the show, you would understand my interest in democracy and WAR. Now that is not very romantic. Sure a Roman soldier is sexy in his leather and metal uniform, but I don't find the insanity of war as romantic. On the other hand democracy results in the rapid advancement of knowledge and technology, and there is a lot to be said for it. Can you discuss the pro's and con's of democracy, or are you limited to character assination?

Where was the character assissnation?


A "romantic view" only means that you lend it more credibility than it deserves.


Osborn followed up nicely on my contentions, so I don't have a lot to say until those truths are digested, and you respond to what was said.