Was it all bad? Germans look anew at Nazi taboos

[brien]

The Germans no more caved into the NAZIS than the US caved into the neocon's New World Order ambitions

The basic difference between Hitler, the power of the Nazis, and GWB and the Neo Cons is fear and inhumane brutality.

When a citizen under the Nazi regime came out in opposition of Hitler, the SS showed up and that person disappeared from the neighborhood.

Can you show examples of this is happening under GWB and the NeoCons? Can you show us comparisons to Dachau and Bergen Belsen, or any other of numerous concentration camps?

Your comparison of the Nazi regime in its treatment of its opposition to the GWB Administration and the Neocons is preposterous and completely disregards the brutality in which Hitler treated his own citizens.

[BobbyO]

Quote by: brien Exactly. Fear went a long way in silencing that opposition. We must remember that Hitler and the NSDAP never had an absolute majority of support from the German people. He used the Brown Shirts initially in the 30's, and then once he had absolute power, used the dreaded SS to instill fear in the population. Some native Germans, and their descendants who were consolidated in German unification when the Republic was established, probably despised Hitler b/c he was Austrian and not German. I have been told this by a few who were there and I believe them.

Much of the silence was due to support.
And why not? The nazis broke the back of Versailles (all the German parties had been opposed to it), basically guaranteed people jobs, food, shelter, cheap consumer goods and the like. What pre-1933 party would have been opposed to that?
One of the funny things is that the nazis didn't really look at it as they were instilling fear in the German people. The nazis had no real opposition because they were popular (its why so many of the Right wing coup d'etat plots could never get off the ground). Goering seems like the proverbial "nervous nelly" here, forever fretting that this policy or that policy could cost the nazis their popular support.

[brien]

One of the funny things is that the nazis didn't really look at it as they were instilling fear in the German people

What do you call the death camps? What do you call the dreaded SS? I think you are mistaken to think the Nazis didn' rule by fear and hatred. They knew exactly what they were doing from 1933 on. It began w/ the Brown Shirts and culminated in the SS. There were several instances of violence fomented by the NSDAP and Hitler beginning in 1933 and culminating in Krystalnacht in 1939. After that, the SS and the elites in the party could very much do what they wanted to the populace with relative impunity.

No, I think history proves the Nazis knew exactly how to gain power and then hold onto it through fear, violence, and terror.

[Nono]

I think both Bobby and brien are right.

By the late 30s, the Nazis were most definitely popular. Of course having dictatorial powers and complete control of the media always helps.

And if anybody flinches nevertheless, well there are always ways to terrorize them into submission.

Only when it became clear that they were going to lose the war did more than a handful* of Germans begin to think about opposing them (very risky to one's person).
* The late former chancellor Willy Brandt was one who risked his life bigtime and from the start to undermine Nazi power.

Quote by: brien Some native Germans, and their descendants who were consolidated in German unification when the Republic was established, probably despised Hitler b/c he was Austrian and not German. I have been told this by a few who were there and I believe them.

Not only Austrian, but a small-timer from a petit bourgeois background. This brought contempt from the aristocratic types -- in the beginning. But they soon shut up and supported him. Until he began to lose the war, whereupon some of them came out of the woodwork again.

When I was at university in Germany I worked one summer with a guy who had been a working-class teenager during the war. He was impressively honest (none of this "Oh-we-abhorred-the-Nazis" bullshit).
What would he have done to von Stauffenberg for example? "We would have torn him limb from limb!"

This guy was a perfectly normal person, and had incidentally now fully recovered from his support for Hitler, like millions of others.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Suburbanite Dead metaphor. History is far too idiosyncratic to repeat itself.

Oh well you'll learn eventually. I didn't mean exactly.... but the same mistakes can be made through time if you don't learn from the past ones. If we don't learn from our own actions in history, the we will repeat aspects of that history again.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: lsbskins1 ...I challenge anyone out there to name one thing the Nazi's developed that was both helpful and impossible to achieve absent the Nazi "philosophy"....

Hmmm...

I guess some of the higher ups in the US intelligence "family" thought so.

Not me, you understand...but the CIA, nearly from its inception, incorporated the Nazi intelligence net, since they had penetrated the Soviets.

It was known as Operation Paperclip and it drew as many former Nazis as possible into an organization that has become the terror arm for US foreign policy. You might say it's our own little piece of the Third Reich right here in Langley.

You might want to google those two terms if you don't believe me 'skins...

Some would call it "helpful..."

[phoenix_fire]

Anyone looking forward to Valkyrie?

[HelioPrime]

I am. As long as Tom Cruise can pull of a decent acting job.

[phoenix_fire]

Yeah, I know. A little disappointing to find out that he got the lead.

[Lasher]

Quote by: GHook93 Sure a bunch of volconvo anti-semites see the extermination of 6 million Jews as positive.

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The 6 million figure wasn't accurate at all.

[Lasher]

Quote by: Praxius You can not ignore or deny history, or it'll just repeat again. One can only learn from the good and the bad from past actions and try to use them better in the future. Did the Nazis do a lot of evil things? Sure.... there's no need to debate that. But should everybody be fired and shunned for pointing out the few good things that came out of that era? That's just blaitent shutting down on information due to fear. Frig, you can't even say that Hitler had an interesting moustache without someone pointing a neo-nazi finger at you. Someone has a question on what happened during the Holocaust to better understand what happened, and you have the whole world think you're a nazi because you don't accept entirely and without question what was reported as to what happened. The restriction on the ability to look at different aspects of the Nazi era and to ask questions, both good and bad, is directly Nazi in itself.... as it keeps a strangle hold on the written history of the victors and we all are told to accept it without question, or we're deemed neo-nazis or racist....... Forced History.

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Thank you for that fine post.

[Lasher]

Quote by: phoenix_fire When a society's cohesion is based on hatred, racism, murder, and fear, it deserves to and should fall apart.

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Is that what's happening in Israel?

[Lasher]

[You mean like "did 6 million Jews actually die?" Despite mountains of evidence--ie population records before and after, German documents, German plans, East European documents, countless eyewitness reports, and recorded confessions, some people deny reality and others defend them because they are denying reality and creating the illusion of a "debate."
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the total number of deaths at Auschwitz been officially reduced twice, and the new total is some 2 million fewer than originally estimated? With discrepancies that large, shouldn't some investigation be taking place as to how the original estimates were made?

[GHook93]

Quote by: Lasher [You mean like "did 6 million Jews actually die?" Despite mountains of evidence--ie population records before and after, German documents, German plans, East European documents, countless eyewitness reports, and recorded confessions, some people deny reality and others defend them because they are denying reality and creating the illusion of a "debate." ------------------------------------ Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the total number of deaths at Auschwitz been officially reduced twice, and the new total is some 2 million fewer than originally estimated? With discrepancies that large, shouldn't some investigation be taking place as to how the original estimates were made?

The thread is not about the Holocaust denial fantasies or really about the Nazi philosophy at all.

I have stated before the best thing that came from the Nazis was Israel!

[Lasher]

I don't think so. And I challenge anyone out there to name one thing the Nazi's developed that was both helpful and impossible to achieve absent the Nazi "philosophy". It just can not be done.
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Mightn't the same thing be said, in a similar way, about the things that Jews have invented or discovered. Would X-rated movies never have been developed if it hadn't been for them? Would no gentile ever have pressed a rap song onto a CD if the Jews hadn't done it first? Would the Italian Mafia never have organized "Murder Incorporated" if the Jews hadn't done it first? Lots of "ifs" here.

[Lasher]

But they didn't systematically enslave and murder civilians, which the Wehrmacht did as a matter of general policy and military principle.
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What else would you call the deliberate murder of some quarter-million innocent women, children, and old people in Dresden, Germany who were fire-bombed to death by the Allies at the end of the war? There were no military installations there, and it had no tactical importance whatsoever, it was an act of vengeful murder.


Nor -- and this is obviously hugely important -- were they the initiating party. Germany actively sought the war, with all its horrors. That alone was a major crime.[/QUOTE]
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Germany did not start the war, they regained the land that had been taken away from them after WWI by the Zionist-inspired Versailles Treaty.

[Lasher]

[
Conclusion; when attempting to understand the German people from 1930-1945, one can't ignore the diversity in the German society that simply caved into the reign of terror that the Nazis conducted not only in Germany, but all of Europe.
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Adolf Hitler gave the German people back a sense of hope and dignity that had been stripped from them in the aftermath of WWI by the Versaille Treaty, which was manipulated by the Zionists who had caused the war.

[Lasher]

But wether or not he killed someone more evil is completely up in the air and is in no way equal to the asumption above.
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There is no record, no paper, no testimony, not a shred of evidence that Hitler ever killed anyone in his life.



It is impossible that nothing even remotely benificial came from his reign. His gruesome experiments on many of his victims gave great insights into medicine and biology, such as witnessing first hand the development of a fetus inside a still living women. This would have eventually happened with the invention of x-ray, MRI, etc but the did it a lot earlier, simpler, and bloodier[/QUOTE]
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X-rays existed then.

[Lasher]

Quote by: grandpa In recent years, it seems plenty of countries have done their sincere best to approximate the basic tenets of Nazi philosophy. Grandpa h.

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Most notably Israel.

[Lasher]

[QUOTE=phoenix_fire;448484]There's a problem with that, though. The supermodels often tend to be dimwits and the intelligentsia aren't always GQ material. Now, while there are unattractive and unintelligent people, there are precious few attractive and intelligent people.
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Lasher is extremely attractive, and a mental giant. Oh, and not at all gay.