Was it all bad? Germans look anew at Nazi taboos

[BobbyO]

Quote by: Praxius Only a narrow-minded volconvo would quickly jump and say something in regards to the holocaust and leave it at that as the end of debate. :rolleyes: ^ The exact example I was talking about. Nobody said anything about denying the holocaust happened or that it was a good thing, nor did anybody make any notion towards being anti-semetic.... so how about contributing something to the debate? How much of todays technology came from Nazi Germany? Rockets? Jet Fighters? Basic Tank Warefare? The use of a massive Air Force?

Germany was levelled as a result of the National Socialism.
Positive aspects of this? Rockets? Do you think maybe that rocketry was coming anyways and that a peaceful Gewrmany would not have exploited such technology? Same for jet engines.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel phoenix the view from within? Is the star spangled banner begining to tear?

I think it still has a few hundred years of entropy left in it.

[Praxius]

Quote by: BobbyO Germany was levelled as a result of the National Socialism. Positive aspects of this? Rockets? Do you think maybe that rocketry was coming anyways and that a peaceful Gewrmany would not have exploited such technology? Same for jet engines.

Yeah I know all about Britian's developments on the jet fighter and how they kept most of their own for defense of Britian due to the chances of the Germans stealing their design.

But it was the German's jet design which has become the main stream which is still being used today due to it's ability to be redesigned over time and only extending the length, rather then the width of the jet engine, which in turn produces better arodynamics.

And your same mentality could be used to any developments any country or someone has done in the past, as someone else would have come along with the same idea. :rolleyes: Where do you draw the line for taking the credit from somoene's work? I suppose someone else would have come across the same inventions Thomas Eddison created.... so why should we give him any credit? :rolleyes:

But hostory shows nobody else made these listed things and made the designs, and Germany is known for these developments, so there ya go.

Due to this war started by Germany, regardless of the government or what they did to others in the holocaust and other countries, this war being created helped get the world out of the depression and technological developments increased in production during this time.... and much came from Germany as well as other countries.

Germany created the mass use of U-Boats during WWI, and improved apon their design in WWII.....

and don't forget, not everything created in Nazi Germany was directly created by the Nazi Government, but individuals in which Nazi Germany held control over.... These people might not have shared the same ideology as the Nazi Government but wanted to work to better their country, but should we take away their credit for development because of the government in power which used this technology?

What shall we all do when this BS with Iraq is all over? Disqualify all of the technological advancements the US has made during this time?

Come on now.

[Nono]

Prax, you're deeply confused between productive economic activity and destructive activity. As Bobby says, having your country (and others) levelled is a gigantic net loss, obviously.

It's like arguing that the 1917 Halifax explosion was a terrific boon to window manufacturers, and therefore "not all bad". Quite a strange point of view.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Nono Prax, you're deeply confused between productive economic activity and destructive activity. As Bobby says, having your country (and others) levelled is a gigantic net loss, obviously. It's like arguing that the 1917 Halifax explosion was a terrific boon to window manufacturers, and therefore "not all bad". Quite a strange point of view.

It's actually not strange, it's called unbiased..... perhaps inhuman sometimes, but fair.

The Nazis were still involved in those matters, and if one was asking if there were any benifits, then those would be as described here, which they asked, which I answered.

I'm not a tree hugger with the Nazis by any means, and I am aware of much of the hanious BS they pulled in their time in power.... but I can still see other factors from each country of the time.

Just because we won the war, do you actually think all our US, British, Canadian, etc troops were all perfect and respectible and never did anything evil?

[Nono]

Quote by: ?Prax Do you actually think all our US, British, Canadian, etc troops were all perfect and respectible and never did anything evil?

Uh, no. But they didn't systematically enslave and murder civilians, which the Wehrmacht did as a matter of general policy and military principle.

Nor -- and this is obviously hugely important -- were they the initiating party. Germany actively sought the war, with all its horrors. That alone was a major crime.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Nono Uh, no. But they didn't systematically enslave and murder civilians, which the Wehrmacht did as a matter of general policy and military principle. Nor -- and this is obviously hugely important -- were they the initiating party. Germany actively sought the war, with all its horrors. That alone was a major crime.

You're telling me all this like I haven't heard it all before... you clearly are not understanding the perspective I'm trying to explain. Forget about it.

[Nono]

Ok.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Praxius It's actually not strange, it's called unbiased..... perhaps inhuman sometimes, but fair. The Nazis were still involved in those matters, and if one was asking if there were any benifits, then those would be as described here, which they asked, which I answered. I'm not a tree hugger with the Nazis by any means, and I am aware of much of the hanious BS they pulled in their time in power.... but I can still see other factors from each country of the time. Just because we won the war, do you actually think all our US, British, Canadian, etc troops were all perfect and respectible and never did anything evil?

As in firebombing Dresden and Tokyo? That's irrelevant. The fascists didn't make Wernher von Braun brilliant, they just gave him money. You don't really need a war to up spending on science.

I'm also unconvinced that the depression would have been permanent without a war. Building tanks is no different from building cranes; it was a matter of massive government spending and involvement.

War does get people motivated, but theoretically people should be able to motivate themselves and skip all the destructive waste.

[Praxius]

Whether you think something else could have happend, or someone else could have done it.... it's all history now... so why are you even trying to de-evaluate what they have been responsible for.

Nobody is dismissing their negatives, which they had plenty. What the hell is so complicated?

I suppose i could equally dismiss anything good that the US did in WWII since they destroyed two cities of civilians with nuclear weapons..... oh but I guess what you prefer to do is split hairs and who did the worst.

I guess the worst out of the bunch get to have all their negatives and positives irrelevent... it was a bad time, so we must foget about it and never speak or question what happened ever again.

yeah, that's a smart way to learn from history ::rolleyes:

[BobbyO]

Quote by: Praxius Whether you think something else could have happend, or someone else could have done it.... it's all history now... so why are you even trying to de-evaluate what they have been responsible for. Nobody is dismissing their negatives, which they had plenty. What the hell is so complicated? I suppose i could equally dismiss anything good that the US did in WWII since they destroyed two cities of civilians with nuclear weapons..... oh but I guess what you prefer to do is split hairs and who did the worst. I guess the worst out of the bunch get to have all their negatives and positives irrelevent... it was a bad time, so we must foget about it and never speak or question what happened ever again. yeah, that's a smart way to learn from history ::rolleyes:

Nobody would particularly deny that Germany had certain technological advancements and superiorities.
But I think people would dispute WW II was the best and most beneficial forum for Germany to display them.

[Praxius]

Quote by: BobbyO Nobody would particularly deny that Germany had certain technological advancements and superiorities. But I think people would dispute WW II was the best and most beneficial forum for Germany to display them.

Oh I agree 100%... but we can't change what happened.

I mean when the question was presented if there was anything good that came out of Nazi Germany... if I could dig, their technological advancements would be one of the select few things.

Granted, most of that technology was also sped up due to them using slave/forced labour and testing on humans, which certainly not the best thing either. But that's another subject.

[Athena]

Quote by: BobbyO Germany was levelled as a result of the National Socialism. Positive aspects of this? Rockets? Do you think maybe that rocketry was coming anyways and that a peaceful Gewrmany would not have exploited such technology? Same for jet engines.

We must keep in mind the reason for freedom of speech is to increase our awareness and advance our consciousness through reasoning. It is vital that we remain aware, and what happened in Germany was not special to Hitler and the NAZI, but the result of advancing technology. We have two things going here. One is an accumulation of knowledge that increases our ability to control our reality. The other is the choices about what we want to control for.

I have a 1940's eugenics book written by an American doctor, that expresses the same desire to rid humanity of "defectives" as Hitler expressed, and Christians and Muslims continue to express when speaking of homosexuals, and each other. Eugenics is the study of perfecting the human species, and many approach this from a racist point of view. For God's sake, keep this in the light of day, by respecting the need for freedom of speech, and the power of reason. Because if we don't, we can distort our understanding of history and the human potential for evil. The subject does not stay in the past, but is with us today.

Human Species Projected to Split in Two « T’ings ‘n Times The BBC reports that evolutionary theorist Oliver Curry of the London School of Economics predicts that in the future, humanity will split into a “genetic upper class and a dim-witted underclass.” According to Curry, The human race would peak in the year 3000—before a decline due to dependence on technology. People would become choosier about their sexual partners, causing humanity to divide into sub-species. The descendants of the genetic upper class would be tall, slim, healthy, attractive, intelligent, and creative and a far cry from the ‘underclass’ humans who would have evolved into dim-witted, ugly, squat goblin-like creatures.”

[Athena]

Quote by: BobbyO Nobody would particularly deny that Germany had certain technological advancements and superiorities. But I think people would dispute WW II was the best and most beneficial forum for Germany to display them.

The US has imitated Germany in every important way, and is today what it fought against. The US adopted the Germany model of bureacracy, which is Prussian military bureauracy applied to citizens. As we mobilized for WWI our enemy was disscribed like this at the 1917 National Education Association conference...

"Whatever their efficiency, such great organizations are so impersonal that they bear down on the individual lives of the people like a hydraulic press whose action is completely impersonal and therefore completely effective in crushing out individual liberty and power".

Hello, the US adopted the bureaucracy model for this power over the people, and it adopted the German model of education for technology, and left moral training to the church in 1958, turning everyone into the programmed parts for the mechanical society of the New World Order.
The social consciousness that did define the US has been forgotten. It's democracy has been perverted as was the German Christian Republic perverted through public education and bureaucratic changes in the name of "efficiency".

The US picked up where NAZI Germany left off and now threatens the world with its economic, military agenda, and the people appear to be powerless to stop a President and Vice President who are out of their control. This is worse than Saddam ruling Iraq, because Saddam had nothing like the power of US, that is no longer controlled by the people, nor wise government.

[GHook93]

I have one - Israel!

[Athena]

Quote by: Nono Prax, you're deeply confused between productive economic activity and destructive activity. As Bobby says, having your country (and others) levelled is a gigantic net loss, obviously. It's like arguing that the 1917 Halifax explosion was a terrific boon to window manufacturers, and therefore "not all bad". Quite a strange point of view.

You are not taking into consideration the importance of controlling a region, such as the US has been attempting do ever since the establishment of Israel, Vietnam and the Prussian Gulf war. These are economic/military objectives and the US adopted this consciousness which began with a Prussian general. Mass production demands mass resources and mass markets. This is assured with military might, and the control of shipping lanes and regions. 9/11 was an attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. This was an attack on the New World Order, not the citizens of US. It would be so nice if everyone woke up and smelled the coffee.

As for the other countries not continuing with the excessively inhuman human experiments done by the NAZI, this belief is ignorant of what is happening within the US. From the spread of LSD to the inhumane treatment of prisoners, the experimenting continues in the US.

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[BobbyO]

Quote by: Athena We must keep in mind the reason for freedom of speech is to increase our awareness and advance our consciousness through reasoning. It is vital that we remain aware, and what happened in Germany was not special to Hitler and the NAZI, but the result of advancing technology. We have two things going here. One is an accumulation of knowledge that increases our ability to control our reality. The other is the choices about what we want to control for. I have a 1940's eugenics book written by an American doctor, that expresses the same desire to rid humanity of "defectives" as Hitler expressed, and Christians and Muslims continue to express when speaking of homosexuals, and each other. Eugenics is the study of perfecting the human species, and many approach this from a racist point of view. For God's sake, keep this in the light of day, by respecting the need for freedom of speech, and the power of reason. Because if we don't, we can distort our understanding of history and the human potential for evil. The subject does not stay in the past, but is with us today.

One can certainly reason that Germany could have produced jet engines for passenger airlines, or rocketry to put humans into orbit. Its not reasonable to assume only through WW II that technology could have advanced and been entered into humanity.

[BobbyO]

Quote by: Praxius Oh I agree 100%... but we can't change what happened. I mean when the question was presented if there was anything good that came out of Nazi Germany... if I could dig, their technological advancements would be one of the select few things. Granted, most of that technology was also sped up due to them using slave/forced labour and testing on humans, which certainly not the best thing either. But that's another subject.

Was the tradeoff worth it? I mean, that's next where you need to answer.

I would say "no" since that technology would have come absent the war, indeed absent the nazis.

[Praxius]

Quote by: BobbyO Was the tradeoff worth it? I mean, that's next where you need to answer. I would say "no" since that technology would have come absent the war, indeed absent the nazis.

To me, that's a hypothetical question which is irrelevent. What has occured, occured.

You or I have no idea if things would have been better or worse.... one other hypothetical situation many have thrown around over the years, is that Hitler could have killed someone even worse then he was, who could have done more distruction and killing off of humanity.

But see.... I predict you or someone else would throw that in the irrelevent category.... yet it's the same mentality as you express above, just on the other side of the coin.

You or I will never know what could have happened if things were different and WWII never occured, or as it did at least.

Was the trade off worth it? I can not answer that, considdering both you and I are currently taking for granted the societies and technology which came about from that era in humanity. If you can not accept what has occured in our past, then you can not accept where we are today in the world.

History will repeat until we learn from our mistakes.....

[brien]

This thread assumes that Germany in the 1930's through 1945 was a monolithical society made up of exclusively Nazis. This is so far from reality ity defies logic.

Hitler: The Rise to Power

By 1932 unemployment had reached six million. The Nazis continued to grow and the SA (Brownshirts) numbered 400,000 men. Hitler stood for election as president but was defeated by Hindenburg. Political violence intensified as the Nazis battled with their communist and socialist enemies. 155 people were killed in political clashes in the largest state, Prussia and the violence increased at election time. The Nazis however were careful not to attack the police while the communists saw the police as their enemy. The government acted though and banned the Brownshirts in April although it had no effect on the political violence. In May, Von Papen replaced Bruning as Chancellor. He lifted the ban on the Brownshirts and called an election for July. The Nazi campaign organised by Doctor Joseph Goebbels used propaganda, rallies, posters and marches while Hitler flew throughout Germany, speaking to as many as seven audiences in a day. The election was a resounding victory for the National Socialists who became the largest party in the Reichstag. The National Socialists won 37.6% of the vote and 230 seats in the election. Hitler refused any offer of coalition unless he was appointed Chancellor

.

37.6% was hardly a mandate from German society.


Adolf Hitler Adolph Hitler Nazi Party; Road to Power; Regime; World War II Victories; Holocaust WW2

The turning point in Hitler's fortunes came with the Depression which hit Germany in 1930. The democratic regime established in Germany in 1919, the so-called Weimar Republic, had never been genuinely accepted by conservatives, and the powerful Communist Party also rejected it. The Social Democrats and the traditional parties of the center and right were unable to deal with the shock of the Depression, and were, moreover, all tainted with association with the Weimar system, and in the elections of September 1930 the Nazis suddenly rose from obscurity to win more than 18% of the vote and 107 seats in the Reichstag, becoming the second largest party. Hitler's success was based on winning over the bulk of the German middle-class, who had been hard hit by the inflation of the 1920s and the unemployment of the Depression. Farmers and war veterans were other groups who supported the Nazis. The urban working classes generally ignored Hitler's appeals, and Berlin and the Ruhr towns were particularly hostile. But in these cities the Communists were strong, and the Communist Party also opposed democratic government and refused to co-operate with other parties to block Hitler's rise

Hitler: The Rise to Power

The End of Opposition The Nazi terror increased and beating and killings became more frequent. The Civil Service was purged of Jews and the Nazi’s political enemies. One by one the different political parties were banned or dissolved themselves. The Communists were banned on 7 March, the Social Democrats on 21 June. The Conservative (DVNP), Catholic (Centre) and Liberal parties dissolved themselves and on the 14th of July the NSDAP became the sole legal party in Germany. In May all Trade Unions were disbanded, their leaders arrested and their members forced to join the Nazi controlled German Labour Front. Goebbels noted in his diary “We are the masters of Germany”. Who voted for the National Socialists? Comment in 1930 by Helmut Gerlach about rising Nazi support: “If the sun shines once more on the German economy, Hitler’s voters will melt away like snow.” Hitler realised that the psychological shock of the economic depression on the German people and the emotions this created: fear, resentment, despair, the longing for reassurance etc., were the most important issues a politician should address himself to. The main groups who supported the National Socialists were The young, new voters and those who previously had not voted. There was a four million increase in the electorate between 1928-30 and the Nazi message had a strong appeal to the young and particularly women Protestant middle-class voters, who had traditionally voted for the DNVP, the DVP or the DDP. They lost confidence in the Weimar Republic with the onset of the “Great Depression” and were fearful of spreading communist influence. One in three of the new Nazi supporters were former conservatives and one in four were former liberals. Nazi support was strongest in the Protestant and rural areas of Northern and Eastern Germany e.g. Schleswig-Holstein, Pomerania and East Prussia. A Protestant voter was twice as likely to support the Nazis then his Catholic counterpart. Conservative older voters who believed Hitler would restore the traditional values of the German past e.g. order and discipline. Although the party did not do as well among the working class, it still managed to capture a significant vote with 40% of its vote coming from this source.

Throw in the reign of terror that was carried out by the dreaded SS and no sane German would have opposed Hitler after the war started. So where did all of the opposition go? Those who didn't get out before 1939 merely shut up b/c they knew what was good for them if they remained in Nazi Germany. The silence of a large percentage of Germans didn't necessarily mean they supported their madman. Hitlert didn't rise to power though a majority mandate from German citizens and he certainly didn't hold his power through their mandate as well.

Conclusion; when attempting to understand the German people from 1930-1945, one can't ignore the diversity in the German society that simply caved into the reign of terror that the Nazis conducted not only in Germany, but all of Europe. Painting all Germans with such a monmolithic brush would be akin to stating that every vanquished enemy of Germany must have supported HItler after his army conquered them simply because they didn't continue their opposition to his regime. Nothing could be further from the truth.