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ZNFYRH · Oct 18, 2007, 10:38 pm

I didn't say lower intelligence.

In the sense of human development, women had less opportunity for free time to develop their intellect.

That's why, for the longest time, men were better educated.

Again... environmental... not genetic.

phoenix_fire · Oct 18, 2007, 11:44 pm

Well, I was referring to the genetic argument. The whole environmental argument against women can hardly be made on a universal basis these days, with so many women choosing to marry later in life, not have children at all, not marry at all, or not pursue traditional sexual relations.

PatrickHenry · Oct 19, 2007, 03:07 am

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Now where can we find a fourth-world village of uneducated white people...?

Umm...try Kurdistan...

shawmutt · Oct 19, 2007, 04:02 am

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Now where can we find a fourth-world village of uneducated white people...?

Anywhere along Appalachia

PatrickHenry · Oct 19, 2007, 04:54 am

The Kalash of northern Afghanistan...

ZNFYRH · Oct 19, 2007, 09:05 am

I know they exist.

I seriously doubt Dr. Watson went to those areas to test their intelligence.

phoenix_fire · Oct 19, 2007, 10:00 am

Cute kids.

Night · Oct 19, 2007, 10:07 am

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

Umm...try Kurdistan...

Arkansas works too =]

Zeebadee · Oct 19, 2007, 01:09 pm

Watson's claims, and the evidence for those claims, should be looked at and refuted scientifically. Using PC techniques to shut him up only makes it appear that the truth needs to be hidden, and is unchallengeable.

ZNFYRH · Oct 19, 2007, 01:16 pm

Any evidence for his claims?

Alive · Oct 19, 2007, 01:42 pm

I've read a bunch of news reports on this (it's getting less attention than I thought it might), and I notice how few scientists attack Watson on the science. As a student of evolution and genetics, some of what he said makes sense to me. There are genetic differences between races. Not many, but then there aren't that many between humans and apes either. Two races evolving under different conditions likely evolved different abilities; evolution tends to fit animals very closely to their particular niche. It is entirely plausible that races differ in intelligence and other skills.

That said, there is no good evidence of this. Social success does not depend on intelligence of individuals but rather intelligence of the society as a whole. At one point in time Europeans were far less advanced than those in the Middle East, and the old world powers of China, the Mideast, and Europe oscillated as to who was the most advanced. Why was the Mideast so advanced early on? Because they had the correct plants to form agricultural societies, not because they were smarter. Climate is far, far more important than individual intelligence in determining the success of a society.

Edit:

One more thing. Blacks in the US who descend from slaves are quite genetically integrated into the white population. If native Africans are less genetically intelligent than native Europeans, then we would expect American blacks and American whites to be somewhere in between, discounting recent immigrants of course.

shawmutt · Oct 19, 2007, 02:19 pm

Quote:

I've read a bunch of news reports on this (it's getting less attention than I thought it might), and I notice how few scientists attack Watson on the science.

I have yet to read, in any of the news articles, a cite of the scientific research that he has done to make such a claim.

It sounds more like a flippant comment "colored" over time with anecdotal evidence, right along with "abort homosexual babies".

Also, it is not PC to state that skin color has nothing to do with intelligence.

And, a follow up:

DNA pioneer apologises over race row | Research | EducationGuardian.co.uk

Quote:

"To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologise unreservedly.

"That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief."

ZNFYRH · Oct 19, 2007, 02:56 pm

That's his way of saying that he's just a racist.

Zeebadee · Oct 19, 2007, 05:28 pm

He also said this:

"We do not yet adequately understand the way in which the different environments in the world have selected over time the genes which determine our capacity to do different things," he is quoted as saying. "The overwhelming desire of society today is to assume that equal powers of reason are a universal heritage of humanity.

"It may well be. But simply wanting this to be the case is not enough. This is not science. To question this is not to give in to racism. This is not a discussion about superiority or inferiority, it is about seeking to understand differences, about why some of us are great musicians and others great engineers."

Athena · Oct 19, 2007, 05:53 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel

Black people 'less intelligent' scientist claims - Times Online

?

I hate IQ testing in general. IQ involves a lot of different things, and IQ test don't test for all aspects of intelligence. My biggest gripe with education now is that it is for a limited range of IQ, and therefore, only those who do well in this limit range, will do well in school. I think millions of children are cheated out the education that would enable them to reach their full potential, because education isn't broad enough to meet all the needs of intelligence.

Alive · Oct 19, 2007, 06:25 pm

Quote:

Quote by: shawmutt

I have yet to read, in any of the news articles, a cite of the scientific research that he has done to make such a claim.

Oh, I'm not saying that Watson's original comment was based in science. But the responses should still be scientific.

The real racist part of the comment was this: “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true.” The rest I can accept as silly musings of an old man, but this last comment is pretty bad.

ZNFYRH · Oct 19, 2007, 07:01 pm

Zeebadee

Watson doesn't understand it, but the explanation I gave, from an anthropological and sociological perspective, is the truth.

Watson doesn't strike me as worldly in his knowledge.

The Bacon Guy · Oct 20, 2007, 07:31 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Shaw

right along with "abort homosexual babies".

Geez, how about a little context, Shaw?

What he actually said was that a woman should have a right to terminate a pregnancy based on the sexuality of the child. That's a little different from "abort homosexual babies."

UmSamir · Oct 21, 2007, 01:07 am

Quote:

We pulled blacks from the primal ooze of primitivism.

We pulled them from holding pens on the west coast of Africa and packed them into ships.

Quote:

...shooting poison darts at monkeys.

You have black Africans confused with the guys in the Brazilian rain forest.

Quote:

Right now, right god damned now, we could fly to Africa and throw a net over some primitive black dude that lives in a hut made from feces, bone in nose he is frightened of of the shiny buttons on the white mans clothing.

Where is this lost tribe who's never seen a button?

Quote:

never mind the truth involved

Why let the truth get in the way of an ignorant diatribe?

Abbie · Oct 22, 2007, 06:10 pm

Eugh. It's a bold statement, but in these quotes at least no evidence has been supplied. I probably wouldn't understand it if it did, but still.

Intelligence does not mean more superior or more happy.

Also there are so many different forms of intelligence. For instance, my friend is great at Maths and crap at English. What intelligence is being tested? I find it hard to believe that one can go on the general overal intelligence, it eliminates too many things.

Oct 18, 2007, 10:38 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	I didn't say lower intelligence. In the sense of human development, women had less opportunity for free time to develop their intellect. That's why, for the longest time, men were better educated. Again... environmental... not genetic. IT'S A BOY!!

Oct 18, 2007, 11:44 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	Well, I was referring to the genetic argument. The whole environmental argument against women can hardly be made on a universal basis these days, with so many women choosing to marry later in life, not have children at all, not marry at all, or not pursue traditional sexual relations. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Oct 19, 2007, 04:54 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,453	The Kalash of northern Afghanistan... "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Oct 19, 2007, 09:05 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	I know they exist. I seriously doubt Dr. Watson went to those areas to test their intelligence. IT'S A BOY!!

Oct 19, 2007, 10:00 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	Cute kids. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Oct 19, 2007, 01:09 pm	#29 (permalink) (top)
Zeebadee Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,833	Watson's claims, and the evidence for those claims, should be looked at and refuted scientifically. Using PC techniques to shut him up only makes it appear that the truth needs to be hidden, and is unchallengeable. "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied." - Leonard Cohen

Oct 19, 2007, 01:16 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Any evidence for his claims? IT'S A BOY!!

Oct 19, 2007, 01:42 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
Alive Human Posts: 679	I've read a bunch of news reports on this (it's getting less attention than I thought it might), and I notice how few scientists attack Watson on the science. As a student of evolution and genetics, some of what he said makes sense to me. There are genetic differences between races. Not many, but then there aren't that many between humans and apes either. Two races evolving under different conditions likely evolved different abilities; evolution tends to fit animals very closely to their particular niche. It is entirely plausible that races differ in intelligence and other skills. That said, there is no good evidence of this. Social success does not depend on intelligence of individuals but rather intelligence of the society as a whole. At one point in time Europeans were far less advanced than those in the Middle East, and the old world powers of China, the Mideast, and Europe oscillated as to who was the most advanced. Why was the Mideast so advanced early on? Because they had the correct plants to form agricultural societies, not because they were smarter. Climate is far, far more important than individual intelligence in determining the success of a society. Edit: One more thing. Blacks in the US who descend from slaves are quite genetically integrated into the white population. If native Africans are less genetically intelligent than native Europeans, then we would expect American blacks and American whites to be somewhere in between, discounting recent immigrants of course.

Oct 19, 2007, 02:56 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	That's his way of saying that he's just a racist. IT'S A BOY!!

Oct 19, 2007, 05:28 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
Zeebadee Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,833	He also said this: "We do not yet adequately understand the way in which the different environments in the world have selected over time the genes which determine our capacity to do different things," he is quoted as saying. "The overwhelming desire of society today is to assume that equal powers of reason are a universal heritage of humanity. "It may well be. But simply wanting this to be the case is not enough. This is not science. To question this is not to give in to racism. This is not a discussion about superiority or inferiority, it is about seeking to understand differences, about why some of us are great musicians and others great engineers." "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied." - Leonard Cohen

Oct 19, 2007, 07:01 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Zeebadee Watson doesn't understand it, but the explanation I gave, from an anthropological and sociological perspective, is the truth. Watson doesn't strike me as worldly in his knowledge. IT'S A BOY!!

Oct 22, 2007, 06:10 pm	#40 (permalink) (top)
Abbie Sedimentary Rock Posts: 2	Eugh. It's a bold statement, but in these quotes at least no evidence has been supplied. I probably wouldn't understand it if it did, but still. Intelligence does not mean more superior or more happy. Also there are so many different forms of intelligence. For instance, my friend is great at Maths and crap at English. What intelligence is being tested? I find it hard to believe that one can go on the general overal intelligence, it eliminates too many things.