"Love It or Leave It"? Guess Again

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: grandpa You should probably elaborate more on what is meant by "proper channels," and, of course, why they are proper. If that isn't done, the channels shouldn't be to my liking. Grandpa h.

The channels properly laid out in the constitution. I believe I did elaborate in that post.

[Agnostopunk]

[quote=Autolykos;436143]I don't know how many times I've debated with people who end up using the "Love it or leave it" argument. Their reasoning goes like this:

1. By staying in the United States (or any other country), you agree to be subject to its laws.
2. Due to the above, if you do not wish to be subject to its laws, the only thing you can do is leave the country.

Those people can go f*ck themselves. shitheads like that have njo place in our great nation. wtf. thomas jefferson and joey ramone are gonna come and kick the snot out of these dog licking ass hats.

[Technosoul]

Petter Sellers is funny. But I do no think you intended a entertainment topic.

What do you think of a motto "love it, leave it, or change it" ?

People often forget the 3rd option and try to stick with the two dimensional one, black and white, do or don't philosophy.

Why not go 3-D.????

Love it, leave it, or change it.

You could even fly a Green, White, and Blue flag to bring attention to that idea.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Nono 1) Would you kindly define all these things in unambiguous black and white?

If it doesn't appear black and white on your computer screen then maybe you need to change your computer's settings. What I'm referring to are the ideals on which this nation was founded, things like individual liberty (though admittedly it took a while for this to get applied to blacks, indigenous tribes and women), self-reliance, free enterprise, and limited government.

2) Even if you can -- and guess what, you'll have an argurment on your hands from other Americans as soon as you start -- you're implying that America should henceforth be perfectly static. This, of course, defies the whole idea and purpose of democracy (you do believe in democracy, don't you C?).

Most Americans are stupid sheeple who believe the lies of the Republicrats and the media. And since America is not a democracy, it doesn't matter whether I believe in democracy.

3) Your invitation might conceivably apply to potential immigrants -- if you don't like this place, don't bother coming. But not to American citizens, unless you're a fascist.

No, it applies to American citizens too.

4) If there's too much bitching for you, Chance, why don't you leave?

Who?

[Athena]

How about understanding the basic principle of democracy?

Quote by: Athena Nothing is more core value in America then disagreeing and taking action when one disagrees. We must obey our laws, but we can also take action to change them. In fact, it is our duty to change laws we do not believe are just. That is the whole point of being a democracy and not an autocracy. This is such an important point. I know this is no longer a shared understanding of democracy, but democracy comes from ancient Athens. It comes out of asking how the gods resolve their differences, and concluding, reason, is the controlling force of the universe. Even the gods are controlled by reason. Our freedom of speech is not the freedom to say anything we want to say, that could be very immoral. It is the freedom to reason, which is essential to self government. We do our best to make good laws, and because they are "our laws" made by us, or those we elect to office, we have a stake in these laws. Our laws are changeable because there is always the chance someone will reason why a law should be changed, and if this person can convince enough of the reasoning to change the law, the law is changed. Because, my dear friends, even the gods are controlled by reason. That is the core value of democracy.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 The channels properly laid out in the constitution. I believe I did elaborate in that post.

No, that's not elaborate.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Athena How about understanding the basic principle of democracy?

People don't understand those principles because democracy is rarely more
than plutocracy.

Grandpa h.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: grandpa No, that's not elaborate. Grandpa h.

Elaborate is not necessarily the verb form of elaborate..

[Athena]

Quote by: grandpa People don't understand those principles because democracy is rarely more than plutocracy. Grandpa h.

Democracy like religion must be learned. The institution that prepared our young for democracy was public education. This has not been true since this social purpose of education was replaced by education for technology for industrial and military purpose. This change in public education radically changed the culture and institutions of the US.

This thread seems a particularly good place to discussion the similarity between what the US has done and what the Prussians did when they took over control of Germnay. The first step is to destroy national hero's and praise effeciency. This ends the transmission of the previous culture which emphasises individualism, and prepares everyone to by subject to higher authority. This changes the order of society from family order to military order, with a centralized authority over the people.

Unfortunately, this perversion of our democracy is not recognized, because of a focus on a freedom, that leaves citizens as undisciplined and self centered and irresponsible as childrenm who speak of rights and not duties. Their education no longer prepares them for adulthood, but to rely on authority.

Now I am attacked for being unpatiotic, and this is sad, because I am fighting for the democracy we once were, against the enemy that has been internalized. Now how do we handle this problem in a thread about loving this country or leaving it? This is not the culture of democracy, nor the social order, we defended in two world wars.