The Potiential of Canada being Invaded by the US:

[Praxius]

I've been contemplating this as of late and threw out a few threads and debates in comparison of the two countries if a conflict occured..... not to actually see who would win, but just to see the mindset and mentality of different people on the subject to help bring me to a closer conclusion.

Will the US invade Canada? That is still in a gray area, but reasons for invading are begining to add up, and based on past actions of the US government and future plans they have in place towards other countries, such as Iran, S.Korea, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.... as soon as Canada no longer becomes bennificial as an ally, we'll be targeted next, and here are a few reasons why:

Athabasca Oil Sands:

Alberta Government calculates that about 28 billion cubic metres (174 billion barrels) of crude bitumen are economically recoverable from the three Alberta oil sands areas at current prices using current technology. This is equivalent to about 10% of the estimated 1,700 and 2,500 billion barrels of bitumen in place.[1]. Alberta estimates that the Athabasca deposits alone contain 5.6 billion cubic metres (35 billion barrels) of surface mineable bitumen and 15.6 billion cubic metres (98 billion barrels) of bitumen recoverable by in-situ methods. These estimates of Canada's oil reserves caused some astonishment when they were first published but are now largely accepted by the international community. This volume places Canadian proven oil reserves second in the world behind those of Saudi Arabia.

Water resources:

Estimates of Canada's supply of fresh water vary from 5.6 per cent to nine per cent to 20 per cent of the world's supply, depending on how one defines "fresh water" – whether it means "available," "usable," or merely "existing." One study says Canada has 20 per cent of the world's fresh water – ranking it at the top – but only nine per cent of "renewable" fresh water. Whatever the case, Canadians consume 350 litres of water a day per capita, second only to the Americans as the most profligate wasters of water in the world. The average global citizen needs only between 20 and 40 litres of water a day for drinking and sanitation. It has been said that water will be "the oil of the 21st century," or "liquid gold," and that it will cause wars between nations. Whatever happens with regard to global water, and the environmental, economic and political fallout, Canada will be a major player. Talks have intensified during the past few years on whether Canada should take advantage of its bountiful supply of water by selling it for profit – like gas, oil and timber.

Artic Passageways:

Canadians were incensed when Americans drove the reinforced oil tanker Manhattan through the Northwest Passage in 1969, followed by the icebreaker Polar Sea in 1985, both without asking for Canadian permission. In 1970, the Canadian government enacted the Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act, which asserts Canadian regulatory control over pollution within a 100-mile zone. In response, the United States in 1970 stated, “We cannot accept the assertion of a Canadian claim that the Arctic waters are internal waters of Canada.... Such acceptance would jeopardize the freedom of navigation essential for United States naval activities worldwide.” A compromise of sorts was reached in 1988, by an agreement on “Arctic Cooperation,” which pledges that voyages of American icebreakers “will be undertaken with the consent of the Government of Canada.” However the agreement did not alter either country’s basic legal position. In January 2006 David Wilkins, the American ambassador to Canada, said his government opposes Stephen Harper's proposed plan to deploy military icebreakers in the Arctic to detect interlopers and assert Canadian sovereignty over those waters. In August 2007, former US ambassador to Canada, Paul Cellucci, stated that in 2005, he informed his government that it should reevaluate its assertion that the Northwest Passage is an international sea body, and should belong to Canada. His advice was rejected and in 2007 Bush and Harper took polar opposite positions.

The Original Invasion Plan:
The Invasion of Canada

Raiding the Icebox; Behind Its Warm Front, the United States Made Cold Calculations to Subdue Canada by Peter Carlson, Washington Post, 30 December 2005 Invading Canada won't be like invading Iraq: When we invade Canada, nobody will be able to grumble that we didn't have a plan. The United States government does have a plan to invade Canada. It's a 94-page document called "Joint Army and Navy Basic War Plan -- Red," with the word SECRET stamped on the cover. It's a bold plan, a bodacious plan, a step-by-step plan to invade, seize and annex our neighbor to the north. It goes like this: First, we send a joint Army-Navy overseas force to capture the port city of Halifax, cutting the Canadians off from their British allies. Then we seize Canadian power plants near Niagara Falls, so they freeze in the dark. Then the U.S. Army invades on three fronts -- marching from Vermont to take Montreal and Quebec, charging out of North Dakota to grab the railroad center at Winnipeg, and storming out of the Midwest to capture the strategic nickel mines of Ontario. Meanwhile, the U.S. Navy seizes the Great Lakes and blockades Canada's Atlantic and Pacific ports. At that point, it's only a matter of time before we bring these Molson-swigging, maple-mongering Zamboni drivers to their knees! Or, as the official planners wrote, stating their objective in bold capital letters: "ULTIMATELY TO GAIN COMPLETE CONTROL." It sounds like a joke but it's not. War Plan Red is real. It was drawn up and approved by the War Department in 1930, then updated in 1934 and 1935. It was declassified in 1974 and the word "SECRET" crossed out with a heavy pencil. Now it sits in a little gray box in the National Archives in College Park, available to anybody, even Canadian spies. They can photocopy it for 15 cents a page.

[Praxius]

Of Course, in Turn, there was also a Canadian plan to invade the US:

As it turns out, Katz isn't the first Canadian to speculate on how to fight the U.S.A. In fact, Canadian military strategists developed a plan to invade the United States in 1921 -- nine years before their American counterparts created War Plan Red. The Canadian plan was developed by the country's director of military operations and intelligence, a World War I hero named James Sutherland "Buster" Brown. Apparently Buster believed that the best defense was a good offense: His "Defence Scheme No. 1" called for Canadian soldiers to invade the United States, charging toward Albany, Minneapolis, Seattle and Great Falls, Mont., at the first signs of a possible U.S. invasion. "His plan was to start sending people south quickly because surprise would be more important than preparation," said Floyd Rudmin, a Canadian psychology professor and author of "Bordering on Aggression: Evidence of U.S. Military Preparations Against Canada," a 1993 book about both nations' war plans. "At a certain point, he figured they'd be stopped and then retreat, blowing up bridges and tearing up railroad tracks to slow the Americans down." Brown's idea was to buy time for the British to come to Canada's rescue. Buster even entered the United States in civilian clothing to do some reconnaissance. "He had a total annual budget of $1,200," said Rudmin, "so he himself would drive to the areas where they were going to invade and take pictures and pick up free maps at gas stations." Rudmin got interested in these war plans in the 1980s when he was living in Kingston, Ontario, just across the St. Lawrence River from Fort Drum, the huge Army base in Upstate New York. Why would the Americans put an Army base in such a wretched, frigid wilderness? he wondered. Could it be there to . . . fight Canada? He did some digging. He found "War Plan Red" and "Defence Scheme No. 1." At the Army War College in Carlisle, Pa., he found a 1935 update of War Plan Red, which specified which roads to use in the invasion ("The best practicable route to Vancouver is via Route 99"). Rudmin also learned about an American plan from 1935 to build three military airfields near the Canadian border and disguise them as civilian airports. The secret scheme was revealed after the testimony of two generals in a closed-door session of the House Military Affairs Committee was published by mistake. When the Canadian government protested the plan, President Franklin Roosevelt reassured it that he wasn't contemplating war. The whole brouhaha made the front page of the New York Times on May 1, 1935. That summer, however, the Army held what were the biggest war games in American history on the site of what is now Fort Drum, Rudmin said. Is he worried that the Yanks will invade his country from Fort Drum? "Not now," he said. "Now the U.S. is kind of busy in Iraq. But I wouldn't put it past them." He's not paranoid, he hastened to add, and he doesn't think the States will simply invade Canada the way Hitler invaded Russia. But if some kind of crisis -- perhaps something involving the perennially grumpy French Canadians -- destabilized Canada, then . . . well, Fort Drum is just across the river. "We most certainly are not preparing to invade Canada," said Ben Abel, the official spokesman for Fort Drum. The fort, he added, is home to the legendary 10th Mountain Division, which is training for its third deployment in Afghanistan. There are also 1,200 Canadian troops in Afghanistan. "I find it very hard to believe that we'd be planning to invade Canada," Abel said. "We have a lot of Canadian soldiers training here. I bumped into a Canadian officer in the bathroom the other day." Invading Canada is an old American tradition. Invading Canada successfully is not.

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Among other things.

Now with the original goal of invading Iraq for oil has now basically cancelled out any profits and safe production of Iraqi oil, due to the continual violence and instability there, and with the major water droughts and forest fires occuring in Western US, not to mention the potiential of the artic passageways and oil reserves under the ice.... to me, it seems as though it's only a matter of time before Bush tries to pin terrorism as being in Canada, since you know.... most claims of terrorists in the US say they come from Canada, which is why the borders were toughened up.

Soon enough Bush will say we're supporting terrorism and the sort, and try and invade us, so you guys got more resources closer to home and better profits.

It's only a matter of time before the US plans to invade Iran with Saudi Arabia's help, eventually Pakistan because they're harboring terrorists which cross into Afghanistan.... and soon enough, as soon as Canada pulls out of the war in Afghanistan in 2009 as planned, we'll be invaded.

Oh... but then Bush will be out of power by then?

Not if he gets his way with this law:

Bush Passes Law to Declare Himself Dictator « The Agitpropist

On May 9th, 2007 President Bush signed the National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive effectively granting him dictatorial power in the event of an ‘emergency’. The text of the directive states that an emergency is defined as: “Catastrophic Emergency” means any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions; This ambiguous language enables the President to implement the directive in the event of virtually any emergency, e.g. Katrina or 9/11.

And also to that, if Bush feels that the next president coming in and/or any other persons or organization threatens the stability of Iraq, he will act on this law.

So.... what are you're thoughts?

[The Architect]

I think it would be more cost efficent for the US to buy Canadas resources then to fund a war with Canada. Or use American investment to develop these oil fields which would give consiberable leverage to the US.
I would think that China would be the nation to watch out for, with a growing middle class and an increasing demand for oil and natural reasources.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Praxius Of Course, in Turn, there was also a Canadian plan to invade the US: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Among other things. Now with the original goal of invading Iraq for oil has now basically cancelled out any profits and safe production of Iraqi oil, due to the continual violence and instability there, and with the major water droughts and forest fires occuring in Western US, not to mention the potiential of the artic passageways and oil reserves under the ice.... to me, it seems as though it's only a matter of time before Bush tries to pin terrorism as being in Canada, since you know.... most claims of terrorists in the US say they come from Canada, which is why the borders were toughened up. Soon enough Bush will say we're supporting terrorism and the sort, and try and invade us, so you guys got more resources closer to home and better profits. It's only a matter of time before the US plans to invade Iran with Saudi Arabia's help, eventually Pakistan because they're harboring terrorists which cross into Afghanistan.... and soon enough, as soon as Canada pulls out of the war in Afghanistan in 2009 as planned, we'll be invaded. Oh... but then Bush will be out of power by then? Not if he gets his way with this law: Bush Passes Law to Declare Himself Dictator « The Agitpropist And also to that, if Bush feels that the next president coming in and/or any other persons or organization threatens the stability of Iraq, he will act on this law. So.... what are you're thoughts?

We've pretty much already taken over Canada - with our popular culture; taking the Canadian landmass is just a formality. Much of the rest of the world sees no real cultural difference between the people of the United States and the people of Canada.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: The Architect I think it would be more cost efficent for the US to buy Canadas resources then to fund a war with Canada. Or use American investment to develop these oil fields which would give consiberable leverage to the US. I would think that China would be the nation to watch out for, with a growing middle class and an increasing demand for oil and natural reasources.

Or rich Americans could start buying Canadian corporations and large swaths of Canadian land.

[GHook93]

Let's go get them Hoosers! :eek:

I think you can rest your pretty head. The Candian-American relalionship, not to mention the American people, would have to go through a hell of a drastic change for it to even be comtemplated!

[Praxius]

Quote by: Chancellor We've pretty much already taken over Canada - with our popular culture; taking the Canadian landmass is just a formality. Much of the rest of the world sees no real cultural difference between the people of the United States and the people of Canada.

On the contrary, since the War on Terror, we're viewed quite differently then you guys.... if anything, the closest country that resembles us would be Australia.

Or rich Americans could start buying Canadian corporations and large swaths of Canadian land.

Once again, on the contrary:

CTV.ca | CP Rail to buy largest U.S. regional railway

Considdering the drop of tourists to Canada via the US, the low value of the US dollar to the Canadian, our recent thrust into the spotlight with the oilsands, military buildup and shortage of fresh water which has already begun.... I think those roles have already reversed between the two countries.... as it goes for who's got the money to buy what.

[PatrickHenry]

When I start to see the propaganda, I will believe your prophecy, Praxius.

US wars are always predicated upon pretexts like freedom and democracy. So Uncle can paint himself as the good guy and the opponent as a tyrant.

Since I haven't seen that begin to happen yet, in spite of your anxiety, I am gonna wait and see. And hope that our nation doesn't assault yours...

[Praxius]

Quote by: GHook93 Let's go get them Hoosers! :eek: I think you can rest your pretty head. The Candian-American relalionship, not to mention the American people, would have to go through a hell of a drastic change for it to even be comtemplated!

Funny.... I figured our relations were pretty good back in the 30's when the US contemplated this originally.

The interesting thing about our invasion plan was it was "at the first signs of a possible U.S. invasion." ~ Ours was planned for defense, but the US plan was straight out for total control and attempted domination of the country.

[Praxius]

Quote by: PatrickHenry When I start to see the propaganda, I will believe your prophecy, Praxius. US wars are always predicated upon pretexts like freedom and democracy. So Uncle can paint himself as the good guy and the opponent as a tyrant. Since I haven't seen that begin to happen yet, in spite of your anxiety, I am gonna wait and see. And hope that our nation doesn't assault yours...

Agreed... the chances at this point are slim, but I'm not ruling anything out at this point..... I mean, you guys atempted it before,planned it again in the 30's, revised it a few times after that, it would seem that it's been on the back of someone's mind down there.

And considdering the invasion of Afghanistan was more-so for getting that natural gas pipline through the country (Which the Taliban opposed orignally) and the invasion of Iraq was for oil..... it seems anything relating to profit and bennifit for the US is open for grabs....

...And here we are, right next door, with all of what your country will ever need for the next many years ahead... with a military that is just begining to build up.... striking now or soon would be in your country's best interests.

[HelioPrime]

Canadian military?

No offence meant. The US does have an overly large and expencive force but it would still in plain terms kick canadian butt anyday.

-Every read SSN by Tom Clancy? Good book illustrating a single US silent service ship dominating a war vs China. Same thing would happen vs Canada. It did happen in Argentina vs Britian.

Control the sea, and the air above it. Then just sqeeze in slowly and force the enemy to attack you on the patch of space you dominate.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Praxius Funny.... I figured our relations were pretty good back in the 30's when the US contemplated this originally. The interesting thing about our invasion plan was it was "at the first signs of a possible U.S. invasion." ~ Ours was planned for defense, but the US plan was straight out for total control and attempted domination of the country.

Your our neighboring country I believe we have invasion plans of Mexico also. Not that we would ever do it, but the military just wants a plan if it ever came to that point.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: GHook93 Your our neighboring country I believe we have invasion plans of Mexico also. Not that we would ever do it, but the military just wants a plan if it ever came to that point.

Mexican-American War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where did Texas come from :eek:

hmm perhaps some users here have a point. Looks like dems have a pro war history...

[Praxius]

Quote by: HelioPrime Canadian military? No offence meant. The US does have an overly large and expencive force but it would still in plain terms kick canadian butt anyday.

Sorry, quality beats quantity anyday

-Every read SSN by Tom Clancy? Good book illustrating a single US silent service ship dominating a war vs China. Same thing would happen vs Canada. It did happen in Argentina vs Britian.

Your grounds for defense in this argument is based on a Tom Clancy novel? Oh my.....

Control the sea, and the air above it. Then just sqeeze in slowly and force the enemy to attack you on the patch of space you dominate.

In basic terms, that's the easiest method of attack..... but it doesn't cover the fact that if the enemy sees this tactic, that they won't adjust their tactics to make it become a dissadvantage for the attacker.

Germany had the largest and best Air Force in WWII, and yet they were dessimated.

Germany Claimed they had the best tanks of the war, and then the Soviet Union came along with the T34 and demolished their forces.

The Soviets claimed they had a much bigger and better army then the Those they fought in Afghanistan, and yet they ended up leaving in failure.

You guys claimed Afghanistan would have been won much easier in comparison to how the Soviets attempted to win it.... and yet the war continues.

How about Vietnam?

How about the Korean War?

You guys said the Iraq war would have been over very quickly..... and yet.... here you are stuck.

As mentioned in another thread, confidence is a good thing, but over confidence and under estimating your enemy will always cause failure.

[Nono]

Canada wouldn't last a minute against the US military. Big effin' deal. Canada has a tenth the population, and it had the good sense back in the 60s to drastically cut military spending in view of the pointlessness of wasting that money while living next door to the gun-happy, nuke-crazed rednecks to the south.

And Chancellor is right: the US dominates Canada in practically every way it could hope for. Especially with that robot Stephen Harper in office.

Canadians will continue to be drawers of water and hewers of wood for the US. Not to mention Alberta's oil sands. That's geography, that's demographics, that's gunpowder.

In the meantime, though, Canadians have the satisfaction of living in a more civilized society.

[HelioPrime]

Afghanistan is the same as Vietman and Korea. Once you go into a war where your foe is just bands of fighters in the woods then its not longer a convential war.

Afghanistan is like Iraq. The war is over. The militarys of the former regimes were defeated and a new govenment is installed. All that remains are insurgents who will continue to fight because they have the advantage of being able to hide in plain sight.

In a convential war of military might vs another nations's military the US wins.

As for Tom Clancy many of his books feature war technology or tactics he takes from real Current or Retired US commanders. He doesn't make up the fighting forces he writes about.

example:
-A squadron of US fighters using advanced munitions to devestate an entire Chinese land army
-A single submarine picking apart the entire Chinese navy

These may be fiction but they arn't fabrications. The weapons and firepower in these books are real and could be used by the US to dominate any battlefield.

As for tactics even if you know what you enemy is doing, if you lack any means to attack him with success what good does it do?

Not mocking Canada or any country here, but with 90% of your populaton within 100 miles of the US border an opening war move of massive airstrikes would pretty much level all Canadian infastructure.

[grandpa]

Quote by: HelioPrime Afghanistan is the same as Vietman and Korea. Once you go into a war where your foe is just bands of fighters in the woods then its not longer a convential war.

More to the point, Vietnam didn't attack any other countries, as far as I know. I don't recall any of those countries attacking the United States.

But that is not a point of view that matters, apparently.

Is there such a thing as fighting a conventional war?

[HelioPrime]

Nope, but Iraq and Afghan began is nation vs nation combat.

Korea and Vietnam were US policy to try and use force to stop the spread of soviet, chinese influence. Both were just wars over politics.

Most of our technology was built for the past 50 years to fight a war vs a superpower. Only now we start to work to fight in a war vs a smaller, more elusive enemy.

Example of how we hope the US military future might be: YouTube - US Army Future Combat Systems (FCS) 'Safehouse'

[Kamehameha34]

The war would come a little closer to home than most Americans would be comfortable with, IMO. Don't mistake my apprehension - the US military is far too bloated to be unsuccessful in such an endeavor - but I believe the last full-out war that saw American civilian casualties was the war of 1812.

[Nono]

Quote by: Kam ... the war of 1812 ...

When a US invasion of Canada was defeated and turned back.:)