How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Chris]

the reason lions hunt and kill zebras is because of Mans sin? How egotistical.

The reason malaria kills millions each year including infants and newborns is because of mans sin? Oh I forgot, god already killed millions of innocent infants and newborns, women and children in the flood and the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Why would god kill a countless number of innocent children in the Boxing day Tsunami 2004?

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: XFRODOBAGGINSX That's right. It's just a natural result of sin.

But....as they say, who made the natural result? It doesn't make sense to punish countless generations for original man's sin, and how could they have known the consequences of their actions. There's really not enough explanation for all this sinning, and why it had such an end result. I know this is supposed to be God's justice, and this and that, but it doesn't make sense, and if God wants us to believe, beings with brains, He's going to have to make it understandable. This is what has so many people doubting it all. You have to believe blindly in the reasoning, and it makes no sense to us, and God should know that. Why make everything more complicated than it needs to be. Even as a child, and believe me, I'm no genius, it seemed made up and unbelieveable.

I still like to believe just cause it's comforting, but not the biblical way, the biblical, and Catholic (apostolic) ways make no sense to me. I have always wanted them to, but for me they don't.

I'd like some good answers, not the tried and true.

[Jack]

Christians will try to ignore the Old Testament by saying Jesus made it irrelevant, but they cannot deny that the god depicted in the O.T. is the very same god, portrayed as the father this time around, in the New Testament.

The god of the O.T. is not someone any sensible person would want as a father. He condemns all future generations of humanity for the error of one of the first. He kills entire villages to teach one person a lesson. He demands, upon pain of death, absolute devotion from his creations. He allows his "loved" ones to suffer for years in pain, misery and poverty offering only to make it all better after they finally die.

Of course the figure of Jesus was made out to be the complete antithesis of this person. Who would have willingly joined the church if Jesus had been the same type of person his father was said to be?

If it comforts you to believe, more power to you. Personally it would give me nightmares to think that god was in charge.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Isherwood Christians will try to ignore the Old Testament by saying Jesus made it irrelevant, but they cannot deny that the god depicted in the O.T. is the very same god, portrayed as the father this time around, in the New Testament. The god of the O.T. is not someone any sensible person would want as a father. He condemns all future generations of humanity for the error of one of the first. He kills entire villages to teach one person a lesson. He demands, upon pain of death, absolute devotion from his creations. He allows his "loved" ones to suffer for years in pain, misery and poverty offering only to make it all better after they finally die. Of course the figure of Jesus was made out to be the complete antithesis of this person. Who would have willingly joined the church if Jesus had been the same type of person his father was said to be? If it comforts you to believe, more power to you. Personally it would give me nightmares to think that god was in charge.

Maybe that's why so many people are screwed up.

[Porfyra]

MARILYN:

But....as they say, who made the natural result? It doesn't make sense to punish countless generations for original man's sin, and how could they have known the consequences of their actions. There's really not enough explanation for all this sinning, and why it had such an end result. I know this is supposed to be God's justice, and this and that, but it doesn't make sense, and if God wants us to believe, beings with brains, He's going to have to make it understandable. This is what has so many people doubting it all. You have to believe blindly in the reasoning, and it makes no sense to us, and God should know that. Why make everything more complicated than it needs to be. Even as a child, and believe me, I'm no genius, it seemed made up and unbelieveable. I still like to believe just cause it's comforting, but not the biblical way, the biblical, and Catholic (apostolic) ways make no sense to me. I have always wanted them to, but for me they don't. I'd like some good answers, not the tried and true.

None of my answers are going to be good and sweet and fluffy and all that except for the fact that Jesus loves you like crazy and he died to free you from your sins. He. LOVES. You.

Sorry but aside from that, religion really isn’t about what makes you feel good. It is about making much of the God that made this world and who controls it and is up there making mansions for the ones who love him back. Its going to be confusing because we were not made to understand it and it reveals what lost wretched sinners we all are but Jesus can make it all better you know. Heh ok I’m done evangelizing.

But....as they say, who made the natural result? It doesn't make sense to punish countless generations for original man's sin, and how could they have known the consequences of their actions.

we are not all being punished for Adam’s sin. Or Noah’s. Or Abraham’s. take a look at the people you know and at yourself. You have lied before, right? It doesn’t matter how big or small the lie. That was a sin. And no man is perfect. Thus, all the sinning and sickness and punishment.

There's really not enough explanation for all this sinning, and why it had such an end result. I know this is supposed to be God's justice, and this and that, but it doesn't make sense, and if God wants us to believe, beings with brains, He's going to have to make it understandable.

God is so holy and perfect that one look at him would kill us. His mind is too great for us to imagine. That’s why we cannot understand. I know it sounds crazy but it will all make sense to you someday when you stand before the throne.

This is what has so many people doubting it all. You have to believe blindly in the reasoning, and it makes no sense to us, and God should know that. Why make everything more complicated than it needs to be. Even as a child, and believe me, I'm no genius, it seemed made up and unbelieveable.

Gah you don’t have to believe blindly! Its called faith. You trust in the one who made you and he guides you through life. Simple.


ISHERWOOD:

Christians will try to ignore the Old Testament by saying Jesus made it irrelevant, but they cannot deny that the god depicted in the O.T. is the very same god, portrayed as the father this time around, in the New Testament. The god of the O.T. is not someone any sensible person would want as a father. He condemns all future generations of humanity for the error of one of the first. He kills entire villages to teach one person a lesson. He demands, upon pain of death, absolute devotion from his creations. He allows his "loved" ones to suffer for years in pain, misery and poverty offering only to make it all better after they finally die. Of course the figure of Jesus was made out to be the complete antithesis of this person. Who would have willingly joined the church if Jesus had been the same type of person his father was said to be? If it comforts you to believe, more power to you. Personally it would give me nightmares to think that god was in charge.

Ok here we go…

[quote]Christians will try to ignore the Old Testament by saying Jesus made it irrelevant, but they cannot deny that the god depicted in the O.T. is the very same god, portrayed as the father this time around, in the New Testament. [quote]

That’s right, he is the very same person. Jesus did not make the O.T. irrelevant, he only overruled the old law. The Christians are now under the new law, not the old one.

The god of the O.T. is not someone any sensible person would want as a father. He condemns all future generations of humanity for the error of one of the first. He kills entire villages to teach one person a lesson. He demands, upon pain of death, absolute devotion from his creations. He allows his "loved" ones to suffer for years in pain, misery and poverty offering only to make it all better after they finally die.

The reason he has to punish so harshly is because we sin so badly! All we wants is for us to follow him and trust him to be in control.

And about the punishing future generations thing: I really don’t know… I’d need to ask my pastor what he thinks but I honestly don’t know why God did that. But I trust that God is in control and he knows what is best for those people that are punished.

If it comforts you to believe, more power to you. Personally it would give me nightmares to think that god was in charge.

lol… but Isherwood, that God IS in charge. And he loves you no matter how long you decide to ignore him and trash the gifts he gives you.

[Jack]

we are not all being punished for Adam’s sin. Or Noah’s. Or Abraham’s.

So you disagree with the Bible?

The apostle Paul affirmed that "sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin" (Romans 5:12). Indeed, we are told that "through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners" (Romans 5:19). Ultimately this means that "death came through a man...in Adam all die" (1 Corinthians 15:21-22).

How to Become a Christian (by Ron Rhodes)

God is so holy and perfect that one look at him would kill us. His mind is too great for us to imagine. That’s why we cannot understand.

Since none of that can supported with objective evidence, I can suggest a simpler answer for why god makes no sense to us. Because the god as invented by Christians is nonsensical.

Gah you don’t have to believe blindly! Its called faith. You trust in the one who made you and he guides you through life.

A pretty good description of blind faith.

That’s right, he is the very same person. Jesus did not make the O.T. irrelevant, he only overruled the old law. The Christians are now under the new law, not the old one.

So you don't deny that the god of the O.T. is the same god as the one in the N.T.? That was, after all, the point of that paragraph.

The reason he has to punish so harshly is because we sin so badly! All we wants is for us to follow him and trust him to be in control.

Beating people into compliance is hardly praise worthy. Does any rational person love another as a result of force and threat? What sort of devotion has to be commanded?

I’d need to ask my pastor what he thinks but I honestly don’t know why God did that. But I trust that God is in control and he knows what is best for those people that are punished.

I would encourage you to think for yourself. Come up with an answer that you believe in then ask your pastor if your answer is correct. Mindless trust is as dangerous as mindless obedience or mindless faith.

but Isherwood, that God IS in charge

But Porfyra, there are no gods. :)

[nerdvincent]

And what if I was a Muslim? Or a Buddhist? Or a Zoroastrian? My religion is the best, nobody can argue because my parents/pastor/guru/holy book told me so. What about you? What is saying your critical thinking, this same critical thinking God gave us?
Now, convince me with one argument other religions can't use against you.

[Porfyra]

christianity WORKS. prayers to jesus WORK. with other religions people are just praying to the sky, there's no one up there. God still works miracles and christians see their prayers answered. The bible is the most accurate historical document in the world because almost all the other docs back it up.

miracles: my grandparents are missionaries and they were in honduras where there was a group of satan worshippers who kept trying to wreck their ministry. the missionaries found out that they were going to meet at a big tree in the forest that night, and they all prayed fervently that God would do something to stop them.

next morning they found that the tree had been struck by lightning. there had been no storm, and none of the other trees were damaged. and since these devil people refused to meet under any other tree, they had not had a meeting that night. they scattered.

here are some more examples: God's Tiny Miracles - main page

thats why i believe that my God is real.

[Jack]

with other religions people are just praying to the sky, there's no one up there.

And they would say the same of your god and dismiss your religion as easily as you dismiss theirs.

All religious people think only their beliefs are valid. All religions interpret natural occurrences as miracles in support of their beliefs. All religions make elaborate excuses for why their god(s) can't be observed by non-believers.

It should be obvious why some of us don't take any of them seriously.

[Porfyra]

but Christianity has EVIDENCE in the miracles. did you even read any of the examples on that web page?

[Jack]

Oh please. Miracles?
First of all, we have no way of corroborating these tales. I could type out a list of stories, credit each to Bill G. in Texas, George B. in D.C. and you'd believe them? I doubt that. Skepticism is a valuable tool on the web.

Let's see if these supposed miracles are really only explainable by being acts of god. Remember, a true miracle should have no natural explanation.

She was foreign and had a very heavy accent. Just then, it was all I could take. I put my elbows on my desk in front of me and put my head down in my hands and said a little prayer. This is what I said, "Please God let me understand this person". The next words out of this woman's mouth were in plain English. I heard absolutely no accent.

Can't we suppose the woman might have realized she was speaking in her native tongue and switched to English? It's not unusual for people who are bilingual to have no accent in English.

I began franctically looking for my exercise book among other books all the time crying...All of a sudden the boy came up to me and asked me what I was doing, I tearfully told him I was looking for my book. He reached his hand into the cupboard and to my surprise pulled out my book from the very place I had searched over and over again.

I've done this too many times with my glasses, keys, several things. And I suspect you'd agree with me that god wouldn't be interested in helping me find my glasses. Why did god let her lose her book in the first place? To learn a lesson? It seems like the lesson she learned was to thank her god more sincerely than the person who found her book for her.

I cried as I asked my Heavenly Father please not to take away my daddy. Suddenly, I felt an indescribable warmth that surrounded me and filled my whole being. I felt like I was getting a heavenly hug from Christ and my Heavenly Father, and in my head I was told that my father would get better. I absolutely knew that this was true!...Sure enough, soon thereafter, my father received a fairly new type of life-saving operation that saved his life, and a few weeks later, he was back home with us.

There's a reason we call them life-saving operations. Is there any evidence an atheist receiving the same treatment would have died?

When the plaque was ordered it was supposed to cost around $35, but when it was delivered the cost was $71. When the school secretary looked in the envelope for the money, she thought we might have to collect more, but she found $71 exactly.

Is there any indication that she knew for a fact there was only $35 in the envelope? When was the money last counted?

There are perfectly good explanations for every "miracle" posted there. Religion is the practice of wishful thinking and self-fulfilling prophecy. We see what we expect to see. There's no magic here, no god, no mystical activities.

Life is wonderfully complex. Actions I take today may have ramifications months later. Religion blinds people to the complexities of life by making everything seem to be based on a single causation, god. Life is far more interesting once you realize that there's rarely a single cause for anything that happens during our day. Each moment is the result of a nearly endless chain of moments preceding it.

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: Porfyra The bible is the most accurate historical document in the world because almost all the other docs back it up.

Hum hum. HUM HUM. KOF KOF.

Do I need to argue?

[Maryjane]

did you even read any of the examples on that web page?

I'm sorry but those were some really poor examples of what would be considered a miracle. Seems to me a lot of the examples were from mentally unstable and irrational thinkers who were desperate for some sort of comfort when they should have used their common sense.

Pray for a book to be returned? Why not pray for your parents to take you out of school where the punishment for being absent minded is to be beaten with a cane? Hell, pray for the cane to get lost like the book.

Sure, medical intervention saved the guy. Guess what? He's going to die eventually. Same with the little doggy. Better face reality now, prayers aren't going to save you when your number is up.

To answer your question Ish, my husband's doctor told me his surviving 3 emergency open heart surgeries was a miracle. Did I take that as a sign from god? No, I took that as his will to survive. Then along comes an incompetent nurse two weeks later and kills him with an over dose of sedative.

[nerdvincent]

Sad story.

[Porfyra]

Historical Evidence for the Bible

Is the Bible Reliable? - Steve Hixon - FBC

^^there, evidence for the bible being true

[nerdvincent]

I'm afraid historical and scientific evidence didn't stop disproving Bible, or at least the Old Testament, since the last century.
Isotopic dating, sediments, proof of a life in evolution and so on...sorry but no christian paid website will disprove them.
It's a bit harder for the New testament, because all was supposed to happen in thirty years or so. But as I said in another post, the Bible we study is only 4 gospels out of 9 (5 other were discovered later). Those missing gospels were considered "untrue" by Middle age dudes, then destroyed, so yes, Bible was modified.
Still how is it better than Qur'an?

[Porfyra]

dang why can't these Christian websites just say the truth instead of glossing it over and not including that stuff? please may you tell me where you got that information, Vincent? i'd like to research this some more. and do you have any examples of how the bible has been disproved?

[nerdvincent]

Gospel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a begening. I've found websites too, but I will let you look forward.

[Porfyra]

thank you, Nerdvincent.

[nerdvincent]

But it seems that you've discovered the truth about those Christian websites. They're just not reliable.
They misinterpret things, forget to interpret other and sometime just say unfounded things, but it always turns to "now forget all this and pray with us". It may start with no harm, but I really don't like the way they try to get us in.