How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Matt W]

Errr...? Neither has England? Really don't see where you're coming from?

[Chris]

Theists like to lump hitler and stalin together claiming they were people who were atheists and also happen to be "baddies"

Hitler was never proven to be an atheist and neither mens actions have been linked to their atheism. Hitler and Stalin both had mustaches too, you could make the same argument that it was their mustaches that made them do their evil actions.

Hitler/Stalin = nothing to do with my statement about a secular government and an "official" state religion (Church of England)

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Matt W Errr...? Neither has England? Really don't see where you're coming from?

I thought it was fairly clear. England had to fight Hitler, and Stalin was partially on European soil. Soil is soil. The two men did such terrible things it would make people not believe in a God a lot sooner than say in America where we never had the ovens, and all that. We haven't been completely perfect, but nothing really close to a Hitler, or a Stalin. The wars themselves would make people not believe in a deity. They were pretty brutal, and caused massive destruction.

Someone mentioned England having more atheists than the states, and this is probably true for all of Europe I'd imagine. The Communist countries had to have been quite depressed for so long that they wouldn't have much left to believe in.

I'm not saying Hitler or Stalin were atheists I'm saying what they accomplished was so heinous it had to create a lot of people with no hope, and then when that settled just no belief in God was left. This certainly got passed on to the children, and their children.

I don't know if it was the timing because people always had wars and hard times and still believed, but I think it was the industrialization that added to it. Life was getting better, and then boom, someone takes it away.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Chris Theists like to lump hitler and stalin together claiming they were people who were atheists and also happen to be "baddies" Hitler was never proven to be an atheist and neither mens actions have been linked to their atheism. Hitler and Stalin both had mustaches too, you could make the same argument that it was their mustaches that made them do their evil actions. Hitler/Stalin = nothing to do with my statement about a secular government and an "official" state religion (Church of England)

I feel they added to the pie. It was what they did, not their beliefs. They created a vast hopelessness that lasted a long time, and turned into disbelief that got passed down.

You guys may be too young to have known people that lived during that time, but it took a lot out of those people, and for generations to come.

England may have a national religion, but I think it's just a traditional thing, like the Queen. People still are free to believe how they want to, I assume.

From my experience many times, too, as people age they lose their faith. Some hold on, but many don't believe it anymore. That's how my family was. I know a lot of old ladies that run to church like maniacs cause they know their days are numbered, but the men, not so much.

[brien]

Quote by: tmay563 I am more afraid of dying than I am of death.

Not to worry b/c you probably won't even notice it.

[Chris]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe I thought it was fairly clear. England had to fight Hitler, and Stalin was partially on European soil. Soil is soil. The two men did such terrible things it would make people not believe in a God a lot sooner than say in America where we never had the ovens, and all that. We haven't been completely perfect, but nothing really close to a Hitler, or a Stalin. The wars themselves would make people not believe in a deity. They were pretty brutal, and caused massive destruction. Someone mentioned England having more atheists than the states, and this is probably true for all of Europe I'd imagine. The Communist countries had to have been quite depressed for so long that they wouldn't have much left to believe in. I'm not saying Hitler or Stalin were atheists I'm saying what they accomplished was so heinous it had to create a lot of people with no hope, and then when that settled just no belief in God was left. This certainly got passed on to the children, and their children. I don't know if it was the timing because people always had wars and hard times and still believed, but I think it was the industrialization that added to it. Life was getting better, and then boom, someone takes it away.

I wonder how, if there was a god, -why he would allow such death and suffering for his "so-called" chosen people. (the Jews).

Here we have a god, who purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures. The mutually assured destruction of a whole race of people. An innumerable amount of parasites and predators throughout the animal kingdom.

What a sick bastard this god is.- if he existed. But he doesnt.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Chris I wonder how, if there was a god, -why he would allow such death and suffering for his "so-called" chosen people. (the Jews). Here we have a god, who purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures. The mutually assured destruction of a whole race of people. An innumerable amount of parasites and predators throughout the animal kingdom. What a sick bastard this god is.- if he existed. But he doesnt.

It doesn't make a lot of sense. The explanations are always so vague.

The reason I try to believe in God is because it's traditional, I learned it young, which makes it very hard to shake, and some of the beauty is just too remarkable to discount that it all happened by accident, or randomly. My experience with random is it's usually negative more than positive. I have a very hard time believing, and always have, even as a child when my brain didn't have all the junk in it.

I don't believe that we have to follow the bible, and it is outdated in MHO.

I do suppose that God is like us to a large degree, but there are mysteries to Him that we may never know the answers. That's where atheists come in, they want everything to have a straightforward answer, and it can not happen, well it could, but it never has, so I guess that's just how it is. Gotta take it the way it is. I just hold on because it works for me, but I don't believe anybody will be punished in the end. If there is an after-life, we'll all get to go there, and that's how I think God is. So, you don't have to try to get to heaven, cause it's automatic. The only reason hell was created was so people would act more godly while they are here. That's it. It's a deterrent.

[Chris]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe and some of the beauty is just too remarkable to discount that it all happened by accident, or randomly. My experience with random is it's usually negative more than positive. I have a very hard time believing, and always have, even as a child when my brain didn't have all the junk in it.

Who says evolution was random or chance? we are talking about billions of years. thats a lot of time for even the authors of the bible to comprehend. Fact is there is no evidence for any god. And the Christian religion has borrowed elements from other (previous) religions and just plain made up stories to control people.

What would you believe in today in America had Constantine not made Christianity the official religion of the roman empire? I think you may be doing some Gaelic chants or may be praying to the sun god.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Chris Who says evolution was random or chance? we are talking about billions of years. thats a lot of time for even the authors of the bible to comprehend. Fact is there is no evidence for any god. And the Christian religion has borrowed elements from other (previous) religions and just plain made up stories to control people. What would you believe in today in America had Constantine not made Christianity the official religion of the roman empire? I think you may be doing some Gaelic chants or may be praying to the sun god.

My thinking is some of the authors of the bible were pretty smart guys.

Christianity may have borrowed from other religions. I don't think that matters. It's not a huge reason to dismiss the whole concept.

Religion does have elements of control to it because most humans need to be controlled, or they act like idiots. This is a fact of life.

Constantine may have been influenced by God to make Christianity the official religion. Why did so many people believe in it, and the ways that it spread? The times were hard even if you were rich. Lots of walking. Lots of hardship, so these people had some sort of a mission, and I can't believe they were all nuts cause many of them didn't even know each other, but anything is possible.

I know that if you read the bible God doesn't come across all that well, but I think The basic theory of it all is that He loves us, and in the end we are His children. No father will knowingly hurt His children as a rule, so that's it for me. The hell stuff is to control us, and make us have fear, but that's because God knows we have to have some fear to act right. The Jesus crucifixtion is also about fear. This tells us what we'll get if we are bad. Nothing more to it. It's the same stuff Moms do to their kids when they say, "wait till Dad gets home". God just does stuff on a much higher level, and for the masses. It had to be a big, huge story, or nobody would go for it.

Could God be different? Yep, He could, but He doesn't want to be. He is the way He is. We either accept it or don't. In the end it won't matter. We're all going to end up in the same place. This is my theory, and it works for me. What others choose to believe is fine for them, but I don't want to live in fear, so I hope for it to be my way. As you can see, I don't follow religion because it makes me not believe.

[XFRODOBAGGINSX]

There is absolutely NO reason to think that Christianity was borrowed from any religion. If you do your research you will see that it an incorrect view.

[Jack]

Then you should be able to easily refute the following:

Life events shared by Jesus and another god-man Some stories appear both in Jesus' biography and in the legends of a single god man: *Mother's pregnancy: It was a common belief among early Christians that Mary was pregnant for only seven months. This legend is preserved in the Gospel of the Hebrews. Although this gospel was widely used by early Christians, it was never accepted into the official canon. Semele, mother of Dionysus, was also believed to have had a 7 month pregnancy. *Virgin birth: Author William Harwood has written that Jesus' "equation in Greek eyes with the resurrected savior-god Dionysos led an interpolator to insert a virgin-birth myth into the gospel now known as Matthew." *Birth Witnesses: The gospel of Matthew records that Jesus was visited by an unknown number of wise men, called Magi. *Authors Freke & Gandy identify them as followers of the god man Mithras from Persia. 4 *Most other sources believe that they were Zoroastrian priests from Persia who were experts in astrology. There is a Zoroastrian belief "that a son of Zoroaster will be born many years after his death by a virgin...This son will apparantly [sic] raise the dead and crush the forces of evil. Later Christians got rather excited about this apparant [sic] pagan prophecy of the coming of the Messiah..." *The gospel of Luke records that Jesus was visited by three shepherds. Mithra the god man from Persia was also visited shortly after birth by three shepherds. *The magi brought gold, frankincense and myrrh. A Pagan belief from the 6th century BCE states that these are the precise materials to use when worshiping God. *Healing: Jesus is recorded throughout the gospels as healing the sick and restoring the dead to life. So was Asclepius, a Greek god man. Pagans and early Christians debated who was the more effective healer. *Ministry: Jesus appeared as a wandering holy man who is later transfigured in the presence of some of his disciples. Dionysus was portrayed in the same manner in Euripides' play The Bacchae, written in 410 BCE. *Miracles: *Both Jesus and Empedocles were recorded as teaching spiritual truths, curing illness, foretelling the future, controlling the wind and rain, and raising people from the dead. *Both Mithra and Jesus performed many healings of the sick and mentally ill; both raised the dead. *Mark, chapter 5 describes Jesus driving demons from a man into a herd of about 2,000 pigs who rushed over a cliff and drowned. In Eleusis, about 2,000 initiates would bathe in the sea. Each had a young pig to which the believers' sins would be transferred. The pigs were then chased over a chasm and killed. *Fishing: John 21:11 records that Jesus performed a miracle which enabled Simon Peter to catch exactly 153 fish. The Pagan Pythagoras considered 153 a sacred number. The ratio of 153 to 265 was referred to by the Pagan Archimedes as "the measure of the fish." That ratio is used to generate a fish-like shape using two circles. The sign of the fish was used by the early Christians as their main symbol. *Arrest: *Both Dionysus and Jesus celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples before his death. *Dionysus is described in Euripides' play The Bacchae as bringing a new religion to the people, being plotted against by the leaders, being arrested and appearing before the political ruler. Dionysus said to his captors "You know not what you are doing..," almost replicating Jesus' words at the cross. He was unjustly accused and executed. All of these themes are seen in the Gospels. *Crucifixion & resurrection: *Jesus' body was wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh and aloe. Osiris was also said to have been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh. Again, the god men myths had been circulating well before Jesus birth. The Christians would have copied earlier Pagan material, not vice-versa.

Parallels between the Christian gospels and Pagan mythology

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Isherwood Then you should be able to easily refute the following: Parallels between the Christian gospels and Pagan mythology

It's the differences that are important. You can also compare Muhammed to some pagan beliefs. It's easier to compare than to see the differences sometimes. Some of the similarities were done for convenience, like the holidays. They kinda merged them.

http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/...ristianity.htm

[Chris]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe I know that if you read the bible God doesn't come across all that well, but I think The basic theory of it all is that He loves us, and in the end we are His children. No father will knowingly hurt His children as a rule, so that's it for me.

Can you explain why he would purposefully design a system where animals kill other animals for food? Where animals are subject to extreme cruelty and subjugation by humans? Can you explain why a god would design something like malaria? A disease that kills between one and three million people each year? Is this "gods plan"? But as you say no father would willingly hurt his children right? Or is something like malaria outside of gods power? I thought he was god, why cant he just snap his fingers? Whats with all the bloodshed and death?

There was a great shift from polytheism to monotheism. Of course the Greeks dont believe in Zeus or Apollo anymore. Its only a matter of time when Jesus and Yahweh go the way of these older gods.

The part about Constantine was to prove a point, just consider for a minute, if Constantine had not decided to choose Christianity as the official religion. Suggesting that it was divine intervention is incredibly naive. If you know full well that if you were born in Afghanistan instead of America, that you would believe Islam to be right and Christianity wrong, then you are the victim of indoctrination. On a smaller scale, had you been raised in Massachusetts instead of Tennessee, you would likely be Catholic instead of Baptist or whatever. Its all about indoctrination.

And to FrodoBaggins, Can you do some research yourself on Zoroastrianism and in particular, a mythical person called Mithra?

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Chris Can you explain why he would purposefully design a system where animals kill other animals for food? Where animals are subject to extreme cruelty and subjugation by humans? Can you explain why a god would design something like malaria? A disease that kills between one and three million people each year? Is this "gods plan"? But as you say no father would willingly hurt his children right? Or is something like malaria outside of gods power? I thought he was god, why cant he just snap his fingers? Whats with all the bloodshed and death?

It's not a perfect world. I don't believe God intervenes all that much. He gave us brains to figure out how to help ourselves.

There was a great shift from polytheism to monotheism. Of course the Greeks dont believe in Zeus or Apollo anymore. Its only a matter of time when Jesus and Yahweh go the way of these older gods.

The pagans were a pretty brutal bunch. The Christians didn't believe in all the killing. I'd say people were starting to mature, and Christianity may have speeded this up. Pagans believed in revering the emperor, and after death giving him a god-like status. Christians believed in an almighty god.

The part about Constantine was to prove a point, just consider for a minute, if Constantine had not decided to choose Christianity as the official religion.

I think Constantine was doing what the people wanted. He almost had to. Too many were following Christianity. He could have gone with paganism, but the people probably would have revolted don't ya think? He himself didn't switch to Christianity till he was an old man.

Suggesting that it was divine intervention is incredibly naive. If you know full well that if you were born in Afghanistan instead of America, that you would believe Islam to be right and Christianity wrong, then you are the victim of indoctrination. On a smaller scale, had you been raised in Massachusetts instead of Tennessee, you would likely be Catholic instead of Baptist or whatever. Its all about indoctrination.

Muslims are Abrahamic. There are a lot of similarities between Muslims and Christians if you look at the overall doctrines. They believe in doing good, and heaven and hell.

[Chris]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe The pagans were a pretty brutal bunch. The Christians didn't believe in all the killing. I'd say people were starting to mature, and Christianity may have speeded this up. Pagans believed in revering the emperor, and after death giving him a god-like status. Christians believed in an almighty god.

I think you need to re read the bible then. Christians most certainly believed in killing.

Cruelty and Violence

Old and new testaments alike.

[Jack]

It's not a perfect world. I don't believe God intervenes all that much. He gave us brains to figure out how to help ourselves.

Why is that? Wouldn't you expect perfection to beget perfection? If we mere mortals can figure out how it could have been done better, why couldn't a god? Imperfection is a better argument for natural evolution than a god.
What about those so called acts of god? How do our brains help us when it comes to deadly floods and hurricanes? Deism suffers from the same flawed thinking as Christianity and Islam.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Chris I think you need to re read the bible then. Christians most certainly believed in killing. Cruelty and Violence Old and new testaments alike.

This is one reason I don't follow religion. The more you read, the less you believe.

Really history is pretty depressing stuff.

Christians did burn a lot of witches for a very long time, so they did do some major killing. I guess the pagans didn't have anything on the Christians.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Isherwood Why is that? Wouldn't you expect perfection to beget perfection? If we mere mortals can figure out how it could have been done better, why couldn't a god? Imperfection is a better argument for natural evolution than a god. What about those so called acts of god? How do our brains help us when it comes to deadly floods and hurricanes? Deism suffers from the same flawed thinking as Christianity and Islam.

Logically you would expect perfection to beget perfection, but there's no way to ever figure it out in MHO. Belief has to have a lot of blindness to it.

[Porfyra]

Can you explain why he would purposefully design a system where animals kill other animals for food? Where animals are subject to extreme cruelty and subjugation by humans? Can you explain why a god would design something like malaria? A disease that kills between one and three million people each year? Is this "gods plan"? But as you say no father would willingly hurt his children right? Or is something like malaria outside of gods power? I thought he was god, why cant he just snap his fingers? Whats with all the bloodshed and death?

It's not a perfect world. I don't believe God intervenes all that much. He gave us brains to figure out how to help ourselves.

Why is that? Wouldn't you expect perfection to beget perfection? If we mere mortals can figure out how it could have been done better, why couldn't a god? Imperfection is a better argument for natural evolution than a god. What about those so called acts of god? How do our brains help us when it comes to deadly floods and hurricanes? Deism suffers from the same flawed thinking as Christianity and Islam.

The reason this world has all that yucky stuff in it is because of man’s sin. It would have been a perfect world if we hadn’t sinned. This is part of the punishment I believe.

[XFRODOBAGGINSX]

That's right. It's just a natural result of sin.