How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Winter wind]

b) The bible predicts the 666, or the mark of the beast (people are getting micro chips implanted under their skin right now voluntarily, but many think it will turn into the mark of the beast.) It predicts that no one will be able to buy/sell unless they recieve the mark of the beast and eventually anyone who takes the mark will be murdered. This is because the Christians will be removed from the world and satan will possess a body of a man who will become the world dictator.

wait a second. Hold on. I've heard this before.

Are you copying stuff from "The left behind series"?
The stuff from that book are nice ideas, but not based on biblical fact. More just interesting speculation. So you might want to source the stuff.

I could go on and on and on, but I have EVERY reason to believe that the bible is true and that the Lord's comming is very near. You need to get ready. Read this first post and pray that prayer at the bottom of it to God from your heart.

Apocalypse Now!
But really, judgment day is supposed to be a surprise, don't go spoiling it!

[ChinUp]

Quote by: Chris without that poorly written book, you would have no concept of "god" or even know about his existence. you make no sense. so explain further, are you a theist, deist, or a pantheist?

Do you really believe that religion & the belief in God comes from bibles ?

Have you no concept of religion without deities & creation myths ? Are you unaware of what it means to be free to believe what you want ? You speak as if people simply adopt scripture or reject religion. Is that what you really think ?

[Winter wind]

Do you really believe that religion & the belief in God comes from bibles ?

After all some one had to write the Bible first.

[ChinUp]

Quote by: Winter wind After all some one had to write the Bible first.

You really do think bibles are all there is to religion don't you

No wonder you go on about religion being bad & God being bull, you have no concept of natural religion. No concept of religion that is based on rational authority rather than scriptural authority.

Talk about in the churches pocket. Really people stop thinking you don't have a choice, you don't need scripture for anything @ all. You are as capable as anyone to think about what the word God might be in reference too, think about what mode of addressing self control & the unexplained is best for you.

The church is only as strong as your willingness to treat them like the authority on religion & God. Looks pretty strong in your mind, I'm sorry to say.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: chinup You really do think bibles are all there is to religion don't you No wonder you go on about religion being bad & God being bull, you have no concept of natural religion. No concept of religion that is based on rational authority rather than scriptural authority.

whoops, let's try again. I'm a Christian!
I meant (maybe it wasn't clear, my bad), that the Bible isn't everything, because some Christian had to write it first. There was Christianity before the Bible was written, therefore Christianity is not defined solely by the Bible.

[Chris]

I was trying to get to the bottom of MM 's belief. if she was Deist, or Pantheist.

Both have nothing to do with creation myths. People get so bogged down in the terminology, and there is much confusion. MM has alluded to believing in a christian god, one who answers prayers, and hears our thoughts, performs miracles etc. (i.e. not deism or pantheism) and -yes, if one is a theist, they have to take the bible to every word.

[Chris]

Quote by: Winter wind whoops, let's try again. I'm a Christian! I meant (maybe it wasn't clear, my bad), that the Bible isn't everything, because some Christian had to write it first. There was Christianity before the Bible was written, therefore Christianity is not defined solely by the Bible.

how do you figure? The bible was written in two parts. The old testament and the new testament. When the old testament was written there was no such thing as christianity.

[Winter wind]

how do you figure? The bible was written in two parts. The old testament and the new testament. When the old testament was written there was no such thing as christianity.

touche. (if i spelled that right...)
I shouldn't have made the generalization, but the essence of what I meant was Christians were there before the creation of the new testament and Jews were there before the creation of the old testament (thought to have been written by Moses). Therefore the religion isn't bound by the Bible, that there is more to it then just a single book (a bad joke, the word Bible means library).

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Winter wind touche. (if i spelled that right...) I shouldn't have made the generalization, but the essence of what I meant was Christians were there before the creation of the new testament and Jews were there before the creation of the old testament (thought to have been written by Moses). Therefore the religion isn't bound by the Bible, that there is more to it then just a single book (a bad joke, the word Bible means library).

Correct. The Bible is compiled of many many manuscripts and/or fragments of manuscripts which in turn were produced from an oral tradition passed down from generation to generation. The stories were told and retold so often that all good Israelites knew them by heart. After writing was invented, the sayings, stories, poetry, history, prophecy, etc. was written down from time to time to be carried with travelers to share or to be left at religious shrines for visitors to discover. During the disapora when most of the Jews were evicted from what is now Israel and scattered throughout the Middle East, the rabbis and scribes pulled all that material together, added some theological statements based on oral tradition (such as the 1st Chapter of Genesis) and declared it to be the 'final word' that would keep the scattered people bound together. No new material was allowed into what we know as the Old Testament since roughly 400 years before the birth of Christ.

Then of course the first Christians were all or mostly Jews who shared that oral tradition and much of the New Testament was put together in the same way as the Old Testament. The New Testament was never formerly closed as was the Old Testament but has become what it is through general usage and custom. The manuscripts were deemed authoritative if 1) they were written by a Christian who knew Jesus personally or 2) they were attributed to a Christian with a close relationship with somebody who knew Jesus personally. The manuscripts had to be in no serious disagreement with concepts and principles that Jesus preached. So far as we know, Jesus didn't write any manuscripts himself.

So far as heaven and hell goes, the Jews thought heaven was obtained only by the keeping of the Law though they provided certain process why which the Law could be restored in a lawbreaker. In the New Testament you find a regularly occurring dichotomy in which certain activities consign one to hell (a concept of lawbreaking) versus the free grace of God through Jesus Christ that washes away our sins.

This makes sense when one considers that it was mostly Jews writing the New Testament. They were born Jews subject to all the requirements of the Law and they understandably had difficulty in doing and 180 and rejecting the Law even as they embraced their salvation in Jesus Christ. Paul especially struggled with this. You find cases where he tears down the Law to illustrate what salvation in Christ actually means, then, good Jew that he was, found it necessary to rebuild the law into a better state of respectablity.

It's all fascinating stuff when read with an open mind. But the Bible won't get us to heaven. The Bible isn't God. But God can and will get us there.

[Chris]

Quote by: Foxfyre Correct. The Bible is compiled of many many manuscripts and/or fragments of manuscripts which in turn were produced from an oral tradition passed down from generation to generation. The stories were told and retold so often that all good Israelites knew them by heart. After writing was invented, the sayings, stories, poetry, history, prophecy, etc. was written down from time to time to be carried with travelers to share or to be left at religious shrines for visitors to discover.

Hang on, so are you saying that the bible stories pre-date writing? Writing dates back to the 4th millennium BC. If the bible does pre date writing, I suppose you think this is proof that its real. If the bible is real why is there no mention of any of the stories in the 8000 years of Chinese written history?

Then of course the first Christians were all or mostly Jews who shared that oral tradition and much of the New Testament was put together in the same way as the Old Testament. The New Testament was never formerly closed as was the Old Testament but has become what it is through general usage and custom. The manuscripts were deemed authoritative if 1) they were written by a Christian who knew Jesus personally or 2) they were attributed to a Christian with a close relationship with somebody who knew Jesus personally. The manuscripts had to be in no serious disagreement with concepts and principles that Jesus preached. So far as we know, Jesus didn't write any manuscripts himself.

do you have any sources for all of this speculation?

[ChinUp]

How come you folks who have decided the utterance God is referring to a deity don't use the name of the deity, you know Yahweh or Jehovah for Christians, Allah for Muslims ..

Or are you trying to convert people into your way of thinking about the word God ? Evangelical like ?

O & if you look @ the real world variables around the actual production & composition of the Bible ..

Constantine I AD 306 – AD 337

Diocletianic Persecution 304 AD - 311 AD
Edict of Milan 313 AD
First Council of Nicaea 325 AD
Nicene Creed 325 AD
Codex Sinaiticus AD 330 – AD 350

4th century

It looks more like a substitute for polytheism in Rome without any loss of authority for the leaders, than any real representation of jes boys message of personal spiritual development that provided a person with the strength to liberate themselves from the man.

Confusing all religion with theism is like confusing all politics with fascism. Jes boy was more of a socialist but got dressed up as a evangelical monarchist to forward the agenda of the power hungry roman catholic church.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: chris Hang on, so are you saying that the bible stories pre-date writing? Writing dates back to the 4th millennium BC. If the bible does pre date writing, I suppose you think this is proof that its real. If the bible is real why is there no mention of any of the stories in the 8000 years of Chinese written history?

Try the other way around, why isn't Chinese history recorded in these stories?

Because they were a fair distance away (by that times standards).

Quote by: chris do you have any sources for all of this speculation?

Well, it isn't unprecedented. Beowulf came about the same way. Word of mouth until some monks decided to write it down.

Quote by: chinup How come you folks who have decided the utterance God is referring to a deity don't use the name of the deity, you know Yahweh or Jehovah for Christians, Allah for Muslims .. Or are you trying to convert people into your way of thinking about the word God ? Evangelical like ?

I think you're reading to much into it, but that's just me.

It's because God is the word used in the Bible's I've read, so...

Quote by: chinup O & if you look @ the real world variables around the actual production & composition of the Bible ..

Which is why we don't take the Bible as the Ultimate authority on Christian, It's just when people who want to argue against Christianity ask for written evidence, the Bible is all we have really...

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Chris Hang on, so are you saying that the bible stories pre-date writing? Writing dates back to the 4th millennium BC. If the bible does pre date writing, I suppose you think this is proof that its real. If the bible is real why is there no mention of any of the stories in the 8000 years of Chinese written history? do you have any sources for all of this speculation?

I should have clarified. The Bible stories do not predate the earliest known forms of writing of course. The stories do predate the date of the writing of the earliest manuscripts of the Old Testament however. Old Testament manuscripts were written in Hebrew which was derived from and closely resembles the ancient Phoenician alphabet which, depending on what source you consult, was invented probably 18th century or so BC. So 'writing' as I intended in my previous post means 'writing' as we would describe writing today with recognizable words for subject, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, etc. Some Bible stories do predate that kind of writing.

The reason the Chinese would not have made mention of any of the Old Testament stuff is that they weren't there. The Old Testament tells the story and describes the experience and culture of a specific group of people, namely the Hebrews/Israelites, who evolved into the Jews of the New Testament. Their experience was confined to the near East.

My sources are virtually every scholarly seminary or studies in ancient history scattered through the country. Analysis, in various forms, is produced by life work of numerous highly educated and dedicated theologicans, geologists, archeologists, anthropologists, linguists, and historians who have examined and dissected the writings in every possible way and have declared them to be authentic Hebrew writings. In many cases they have also concurred with at least some of the actual histories cited, have excavated ancient ruins that correlate with some of the places mentioned, and have concurred that many events described could realistically have occurred.

[ChinUp]

Winter wind .. by using the word God rather than Yahweh who apparently authored the Bible your trying to convert everyone into your beliefs about what the word God refers too. Its called the power of suggestion.

If you respected peoples freedom to make their own mind up about what the word God is referring to, you would use the name of the deity you believe in Yahweh, rather than trying to monopolize beliefs around the word God.

How else can people enjoy relgious freedom ?

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: ChinUp Winter wind .. by using the word God rather than Yahweh who apparently authored the Bible your trying to convert everyone into your beliefs about what the word God refers too. Its called the power of suggestion. If you respected peoples freedom to make their own mind up about what the word God is referring to, you would use the name of the deity you believe in Yahweh, rather than trying to monopolize beliefs around the word God. How else can people enjoy relgious freedom ?

God did not "author" the bible. One might say, "inspired by," or even "received the word," but God didn't write a single word. And, of course, neither did Jesus.

It's a bit of a sidebar, but I've been reading a book called Misquoting Jesus. by a biblical scholar. It's pretty obvious the bible is filled with errors of all kinds. If we had the original texts then those who claim otherwise might be able to prove those who question wrong. But since we have copies, of copies, of copies, of what was passed by by word of mouth, to another who passed it on by word of mouth, who passed it on... and, to top it all off, so many different versions: to claim it must be without error is illogical at best.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Ken Carman God did not "author" the bible. One might say, "inspired by," or even "received the word," but God didn't write a single word. And, of course, neither did Jesus. It's a bit of a sidebar, but I've been reading a book called Misquoting Jesus. by a biblical scholar. It's pretty obvious the bible is filled with errors of all kinds. If we had the original texts then those who claim otherwise might be able to prove those who question wrong. But since we have copies, of copies, of copies, of what was passed by by word of mouth, to another who passed it on by word of mouth, who passed it on... and, to top it all off, so many different versions: to claim it must be without error is illogical at best.

You are correct that God/Jesus did not write the Bible. The Bible is a collection of manuscripts written by people, all of great faith, explaining their experience from their perspective and within the knowledge they had at the time. Erhman's Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why is a good addition to any Bible scholar's library--I own a copy--but it must be considered within the larger scholarship of many dozens, perhaps hundreds, of theologians who have devoted their lives to studying the content of the Bible and the historical basis that underpins it. It is wise to understand the oral tradition used by the Jews before Jesus and also in Jesus' day and why it is highly reliable, though not perfect. And it is wise to understand that works such as Erhman's are utlilized by some people who would strip the gospel of its power and instill a lack of confidence into believers. Good Bible scholarship allows for the truth that exists quite nicely outside dogmatic people-created doctrine that you find in some believers and also in some non-believers.

[Chris]

Quote by: Winter wind Try the other way around, why isn't Chinese history recorded in these stories? Because they were a fair distance away (by that times standards).

so, they never had any contact with middle eastern bronze age authors of a bible that says the earth and the universe was created by an omnipotent supernatural all powerful being who simultaneously can hear the thoughts of every human on the planet. That bible says that Chinese people -a proud people with a 4600 year history -are doomed to the eternal torture and burning and choking and suffering in hell for not believing in Jesus. We are talking about 1.3 Billion people here. Heh that god is a really kind god eh?

Quote by: Foxfyre The reason the Chinese would not have made mention of any of the Old Testament stuff is that they weren't there. The Old Testament tells the story and describes the experience and culture of a specific group of people, namely the Hebrews/Israelites, who evolved into the Jews of the New Testament. Their experience was confined to the near East.

So can I ask the obvious question, why you - a westerner living in the 21st century - is basing your life off a bronze age collection of writings written by desert nomads in the middle east about a supernatural invisible being?

[ChinUp]

Ken Carman .. Did I say God was even somebody, or is that what goes on in your head around the word God do to evangelists converting you into their beliefs around the word God ? Yahweh the deity of Christendom was apparently the will behind the Bible. Not that I believe that personally. Or think the word God has anything @ all to do the make believe being Yahweh who supposedly created everything.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Jefferson Bible

Heaven is loving & contentedness, hell fear & discomfort. If you ask me guilt & piety promote more hell on earth than anything else .

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: ChinUp Heaven is loving & contentedness, hell fear & discomfort. If you ask me guilt & piety promote more hell on earth than anything else.

I'm with you on that. There's a lot of wisdom in those two sentences.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Chris so, they never had any contact with middle eastern bronze age authors of a bible that says the earth and the universe was created by an omnipotent supernatural all powerful being who simultaneously can hear the thoughts of every human on the planet. That bible says that Chinese people -a proud people with a 4600 year history -are doomed to the eternal torture and burning and choking and suffering in hell for not believing in Jesus. We are talking about 1.3 Billion people here. Heh that god is a really kind god eh?

The Bible makes no mention of the Chinese people at all. Not only were the Chinese not there to witness what the Israelites experienced, but neither did the Israelites have any way to know that the Chinese existed. And there weren't 1.3 billion of you back then either. If I remember right, there were fewer than 100 million of you in the first century AD.

Therefore, you are badly mistaken when you think the Bible consigns you or anybody else to hell. The Bible, most particularly the New Testament, assigns God's love and promise of eternal life to all people everywhere. I recommend that one actually read it, all of it, through the eyes of those who wrote it, before passing judgment on it.

So can I ask the obvious question, why you - a westerner living in the 21st century - is basing your life off a bronze age collection of writings written by desert noma