How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Maryjane]

Oh please, in a debate forum comfy little platitudes will be met with deserved scorn. The woman's husband died and all you theists can offer are vague pleasantries and stale platitudes? How telling that is.

Ha ha Isherwood....

That's like telling the woman I know when her husband was brutally murdered...

GOD KNOWS BEST!

Don't worry...I'm not done yet!

[Maryjane]

I think telling people what they want to hear probably brings a person's character into question more than does somebody sharing their belief in the love of God with you.

Here we go...question my character. Was that judging on your part? You might want to consult your scripture. That's a NO! NO! Not that I need to explain myself, but just to let you know, if religious folks didn't butt into my business, I wouldn't have to tell them anything.

You built so many red herrings into this statement, I think I'll just accept you along with your prejudices and move to the next comment.

Feel free to point them out.

Perhaps there is some truth in this. What do you tell people when you don't know what to say? Do you think telling them life sucks and there is no hope helps?

There is a lot of truth in that. You tell them you are sorry and then shut up! Let them talk. It's not about you! (or your god)

You tell them losing someone they love effing SUCKS! Cause it does! That is the truth! You don't know how many people appreciate having that affirmed. You want to pretend life is rosy when the worst thing that ever happened to them occurs? Nice, now get in your car and go back to your cozy family afterwards and pretend that god's marvelous plan is going to comfort them. And you wonder why people like me walk away after telling you what you want to hear?

No, you don't tell them there is no hope. You tell them that it is a long road to recovery, that every day will be a struggle, that there is light at the end of the tunnel and that it isn't going to be easy and that you will be there to cut their grass, bring them groceries, take their kids for a day, offer to help them in a tangible way instead of telling them a fairy god in the sky is going to magically come down and make life all better again.

I tell a lot of people who are hurting or frustrated or discourged to give it time. Sometimes there is absolutely nothing else to do. Waiting on the Lord to reveal himself and/or his plan or marching orders is sort of another way to say that too.

Wait for god to do what exactly? What is it god is going to do? Pay their bills? Heal their illnesses? Fix their marriage? Stop their addictions?

But why do you think you are so angry?

Don't assume I'm angry. If I was angry, you'd know it.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel you consider your lifetime being an attendance in some heaven school on earth and to graduate you need to worship? when will you live as a responsible human and no longer a schoolchild?

First off, let's make one thing absolutely crystal god damn clear. You don't kow how I lead my life. All you are doing is reading words typed into a forum on the net. To make an assumption from a few words such as that only proves you don't know shi... but apparently think you know everything.

Your reframing of what I actually wrote is annoyingly self serving. Please point out to me where I stated I'm going to graduate from some heavenly school. There could be nothing beyond what happens here. We do learn, hopefully.

Note what I did say...

"....we are, hopefully, smart enough to walk and chew our way unto perfection at the same time".

Does that indicate, for sure, we are actually doing that? No, in fact many of us stay stagnant or go the opposite direction. If you have ever read any of my other posts regarding perfection you'd realize I don't believe in any state such as "perfect." I do, however, believe in "perfecting" oneself., as noted by...

"I do believe one can accept the premise that "error," or whatever you wish to call it, always exists and still push ourselves onwards: perfecting ourselves."

I even believe it's possible that which we may believe to be perfect... pick any diety you wish, is also improving, perfecting, if you read...

"Jesus bespeaks a change of tactics: a part of the learning curve as applied to a diety as well as to humanity."

If , I repeat, IF, there is a heaven: an after life, then one would hope we would continue the process there.

Read much? Or is your translation of what others have typed naturally sloppy?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe Truly being sorry is all it takes, but truly is the main word here, and God knows when you aren't.

No, God is no separate identity out there up or down !! Yes, your own self knows very very very....infinity WELL, when you aren't.

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel Marilyn only if you truly believe in a singular entity and as Ken asked, is the christian or muslim or other(s) heaven really worth it?

Even the singular entity is not a separate one but is purest form of your own self. So, truly sorry is not judged by anybody other than own self conscience. God is only refined form of own consciousness.

That is why I tell "you may decieve everybody, even the God you are believing in but, cannot NEVER your ownself !!"

[Kuldeep]

@Maryjane

To me, your posts are not copied thoughts from literature but, from your own conscience ! In gist, you say "do good have good." Samething most of the relgions also teach in some or the other form. I only add "your own conscience is the real God". as pointed out in my previous post. Your absolute peaceful state of mind and situation around is the real HEAVEN !!!

Quote by: Ken Carman I even believe it's possible that which we may believe to be perfect... pick any diety you wish, is also improving, perfecting, if you read... If , I repeat, IF, there is a heaven: an after life, then one would hope we would continue the process there.

First thought "Helping others" was from Maryjane and now the second one from you "believe to be perfect" appealed me in the previous 4-5 pages of this thread.

These two thoughts fit well in my conception of manifested GOD as one's OWN SELF. One can continue to improve upon the SELF and try to be PERFECT. A very good path has been mentioned by Maryjane to do so.

Though, I can not imagine any separate God or even the HEAVEN present anywhere other than and within my ownself. In simple terms, I look at me as GOD as what I call myself "I" and HAVEN the state of my mind and evironment around myself, which makes me "Absolutly Peaceful and Satisfied" !!!????

Since, the "Absolute Perfection" is not possible to attain in span of one 's life time, the urge to attain IT remains at the time of death. Also, the grief of losing physical body is obvious, the striving to get another one can not be ruled out so I also firmly believe in reincarnation so that perfection process is continued. This supported by some published stories of past memories by some rare persons throughout the world !!

[Laurie]

Quote by: Foxfyre ...Or they are the Atheists who have developed their own religion devoted to destroying the faith of those who believe in God. Or they are the anti-religionists who must justify their unbelief by attempting discredit those who believe and/or elevate themselves as morally and rationally superior. All of these I believe resist God by attempting to put God in a box and define what God must be in order to be believable. I believe those who choose to no longer do that, who will allow God to be God and reveal himself on his terms, will become believers.

Stuff and nonsense! That is a sweeping statement and an insult to all those 'thinking' people who want to put this 'God' under a microscope, and why not? What is so wrong with not taking things at face value? Why shouldn't we question?

I mean, this 'biblical' God, I presume that he is one and the same as that of the bible, fought turf wars, lead men against men, in bloody battles... anihilated whole cities just on a whim, or because he supported one side or another! Where was his notion of 'love thy neighbor' there?

Is that what you mean by 'the unconditional love of God, for humans? Sure I'm gonna question that selective unconditional love!

One of the commandments is that thou shalt not kill, yet here he/she/it is actively supporting horrific slaughter, and making explicit commands to his followers that they must kill, 'even unto every man woman and child... Spare them not' is his command! Where is the unconditional love for every human there? Please tell me!

In other commands he/she/it commands his followers to seperate the women, set them aside, save them... for what? Rape? Slavery? Hmm... Sure I wanna question that! And a host of other questionable acts down thro the ages!

These, and much more of his doings are the actions of a capricious, arrogant and aggressive tyrant!

You say...

Or they are the anti-religionists who must justify their unbelief by attempting discredit those who believe and/or elevate themselves as morally and rationally superior.

Trust me, by that statement alone you are behaving in just the same way as those that you judge to be acting as 'moral and rationally superior.' Are you honestly trying to tell us that christians have never been found to be so? Take a look around you at the real world! You'll find many of them in prominent positions around the world, especially politicians, but also in every day life...

Peace.

[Marilyn Monroe]

I'm not going to say a whole lot, but I still think we would all go to heaven, but I tend to think like a Universalist. Really though, what if it's all over when we die? It would be like before we were born, nothing. I think this could be an ok thing. I mean what are ya gonna do about it? I'd rather there be something, but how would you know? There is no way to know anything for sure. This is the killer.

Porfyra ( I think),
Praying isn't supposed to be just asking for stuff, it's supposed to be worship, praising God. I try to throw in worship from time to time just because I know I'd want to be thanked once in a while if I was in that position.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Laurie Stuff and nonsense! That is a sweeping statement and an insult to all those 'thinking' people who want to put this 'God' under a microscope, and why not? What is so wrong with not taking things at face value? Why shouldn't we question? I mean, this 'biblical' God, I presume that he is one and the same as that of the bible, fought turf wars, lead men against men, in bloody battles... anihilated whole cities just on a whim, or because he supported one side or another! Where was his notion of 'love thy neighbor' there? Is that what you mean by 'the unconditional love of God, for humans? Sure I'm gonna question that selective unconditional love! One of the commandments is that thou shalt not kill, yet here he/she/it is actively supporting horrific slaughter, and making explicit commands to his followers that they must kill, 'even unto every man woman and child... Spare them not' is his command! Where is the unconditional love for every human there? Please tell me! In other commands he/she/it commands his followers to seperate the women, set them aside, save them... for what? Rape? Slavery? Hmm... Sure I wanna question that! And a host of other questionable acts down thro the ages! These, and much more of his doings are the actions of a capricious, arrogant and aggressive tyrant! You say... Trust me, by that statement alone you are behaving in just the same way as those that you judge to be acting as 'moral and rationally superior.' Are you honestly trying to tell us that christians have never been found to be so? Take a look around you at the real world! You'll find many of them in prominent positions around the world, especially politicians, but also in every day life... Peace.

The truly non-religious are generally the most unassuming, nonoffensive people on Earth when it comes to religion. They presume no superior intellect or rational thought on the subject and judge nobody else based on what they do or do not believe. They might choose to join in religious activities or celebrations because they enjoy them or find them interesting, but they could care less what you believe, what I believe, what artwork might be included on or in government buildings, that God as history and heritage is included in the Pledge or inscribed on a coin or whether others want to pray before a football game. They realize that it has nothing to do with them, but neither does it affect or harm them in any way and it doesn't bother them that others want to do that. That is true tolerance.

Of course there are Christians who are obnoxiously pushy and/or judgmental re their faith as there are people of all faiths who fall into these less attractive categories. And in that sense they are not morally or intellectually superior to the Atheist who intentionally attempts to destroy the faith of another or the anti-religionist who justifies his position as morally or intellectually superior while deeming people of faith to be delusional or accusing them of copying pagan religions or being brainwashed with superstitions.

Yes there are a small minority of Christians that attempt to inappropriately interject religion into the public sector. (These are generally criticized and opposed by most Christians.) And then there are those Atheists and anti-religionists who wrap themselves in a perverted interpretation of the First Amendment and attempt to remove all evidence of religious faith from public view. (I don't see much protest from other Atheists or anti-religionists here.)

Finally, there are those who throw all manner of red herrings and straw men into a discussion like this as you did and think non specific observations are a personal affront as you apparently did.

I think it is healthy for anybody to question anything. I also think any concept can be discussed objectively and rationally in all its aspects without having to cast aspersions on the other person and without making a judgment of the character of another person while doing it.

Meanwhile, I will continue to point out the destructive actions of those who would attempt to destroy the faith of believers and the unkind and judgmental means by which they deem them, in effect, to be fools or evil.

[Maryjane]

Kuldeep

To me, your posts are not copied thoughts from literature but, from your own conscience ! In gist, you say "do good have good." Samething most of the relgions also teach in some or the other form. I only add "your own conscience is the real God". as pointed out in my previous post. Your absolute peaceful state of mind and situation around is the real HEAVEN !!!

In a way, yes, I am my own goddess. I pull the strings, I make things happen, my conscience is my guide. For the most part I am at peace. Accepting that I will never see my loved one again, nor will my children, was the hardest part. In truth, I think it's a lot easier not to believe in heaven and hell. That makes religious people uncomfortable. Some can't accept that people can be at peace without some sort of spiritual guidance. (found in a book) Those are the people that don't understand what being a non believer is all about. There are some things that are out of my control. I don't attribute them to god's plan. I don't want or need a religion that tells me my thoughts, feelings, and actions are sins, when they are just part of human nature.

Which brings me to another misconception. You will notice all the negative things said about me, as a person. My character was brought into question immediately. You will also see that I was accused of being prejudiced. This person doesn't know me. How can they make that assessment? My religious friends in real life (who KNOW me) don't feel that way and I have many.

I imagine it was said because I don't accept their truths. Why should I? They haven't lived my life.
I don't see where religion brings my religious friends peace. Most of their struggles are because they refuse to listen to their conscience. They are taught not to trust themselves. Oh, and I was accused of being angry. They mistook passion for anger.

Religion teaches do good, be good, think good thoughts or go to hell. It's not the same.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Kuldeep @Maryjane To me, your posts are not copied thoughts from literature but, from your own conscience ! In gist, you say "do good have good." Samething most of the relgions also teach in some or the other form. I only add "your own conscience is the real God". as pointed out in my previous post. Your absolute peaceful state of mind and situation around is the real HEAVEN !!! First thought "Helping others" was from Maryjane and now the second one from you "believe to be perfect" appealed me in the previous 4-5 pages of this thread. These two thoughts fit well in my conception of manifested GOD as one's OWN SELF. One can continue to improve upon the SELF and try to be PERFECT. A very good path has been mentioned by Maryjane to do so. Though, I can not imagine any separate God or even the HEAVEN present anywhere other than and within my ownself. In simple terms, I look at me as GOD as what I call myself "I" and HAVEN the state of my mind and evironment around myself, which makes me "Absolutly Peaceful and Satisfied" !!!???? Since, the "Absolute Perfection" is not possible to attain in span of one 's life time, the urge to attain IT remains at the time of death. Also, the grief of losing physical body is obvious, the striving to get another one can not be ruled out so I also firmly believe in reincarnation so that perfection process is continued. This supported by some published stories of past memories by some rare persons throughout the world !!

Tis the pursuit, the endeavor, the journey that's important and meaningful. If we ever could arrive at some state we might attempt to refer to as, "absolutely peaceful and satisfied," we would certainly become un-absolute sooner or later... most likely "soon." If we recognize this process, rather than believing in some ultimate; final state, we'd all be happier, more sane and cause less hurt and pain... both to ourselves and others: especially others. Though belief in the Tooth Fairy is more rational than some absolute perfect state, IMO, good luck with changing that.

[Maryjane]

Kuldeep and I disagree on a few things, reincarnation is one.

Ken,
It is not my intention to change what works for anyone. All I can say is what works for me. I'll be on this "journey" till the day I die. I don't want to spend it living anyone's truth but my own. It doesn't take much to make me happy now that I know what is really important in life.

[jazz fork Gun]

Quote by: Porfyra !!! *eyes bulge* the attempt to be as God is should NOT be considered a sin! doesn't the bible say over and over again that we need to try to be like Jesus?

There's a difference between emulation and usurpation. Be *like* God -- follow the commandments and try to be holy. Don't *be* God -- don't decide who should live or die, don't try to change things that aren't yours to change. That's what the difference is.

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel Porfyra why light? Have you some deep rooted fear of dark? Also why He, does your god need to be masculine?

Ah! Western civilization, white vs black, good vs evil, pure vs spotted, light vs dark. In China, is white not a colour of mourning, just the same as black? You are following cultural standards already laid out for you hundreds and thousands, if not more, years ago, and you don't even realize! I love it ^-^

And, yes, it's time to debate gender roles ;] Why *is* God masculine? Hmm... I'll tell you. Culture. The culture of the writers of the Bible was a patriarchal one. The man, father, was THE most important. What he says goes. Men were in charge, so of *course* God would be a man. *Insert sarcastic "duh" here* Let's ponder for a moment what the Bible would sound like, what the pronoun of choice would be, if the Amazons had written the Bible. ...Done pondering? Interesting, isn't it? God is genderless, sexless, but we needed a pronoun, and no one was using 'zhe' yet. But perhaps this passion is better suited for a different thread...

Quote by: Porfyra i've got a question about prayer, since it was brought up in a previous post. why pray if it isn't really needed? Gos already has our lives planned out completely and nothing we say to him can change it.

The way I see it, God doesn't have our lives all planned out. More like he's got a map with all the possible outcomes. Every choice you make is in his master plan [ooh stalkerish?] -- what would happen if you wear that blue shirt instead of the red one? Okay, so maybe some choices won't be so life-changing, but God's got a roadmap from the moment you choose to, let's be drastic and say..., murder that kid at school you really hate.... Or from the moment you choose not to. That's where your free will comes in -- which path are you going to take?

And prayer is not just trying to change things. It's thanking God, it's talking to him on a friendly level, among other things.

Let's say you have a best friend: you two are so close and you can practically read each other's minds. So before s/he even says something, you know almost exactly what's wrong. But it feels good for him/her to tell you all about it any way, and it makes you feel good that s/he trusts you enough to share such an intimate detail of his/her life with you. Praying with God, to me, seems more like that. Like a phone call for friendly purposes, and less like a beg-a-thon.



That's all for now -- enjoy reading that

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Maryjane Kuldeep and I disagree on a few things, reincarnation is one. Ken, It is not my intention to change what works for anyone. All I can say is what works for me. I'll be on this "journey" till the day I die. I don't want to spend it living anyone's truth but my own. It doesn't take much to make me happy now that I know what is really important in life.

As long as you have sense of individuality and which is because of Your mind and its peculiar properties.....you would not never achieve the absolute perfect status permanently. However you try try to reduce DESIRES to begin with which is path for removing individuality. !!Absolute Perfect state is Universal Consciousness for which sense of individuality is to be erased !!! In that state YOU would find your existence in whole of the universe and even beyond, the way at the moment you feel within your body !!!???

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Maryjane Kuldeep and I disagree on a few things, reincarnation is one. .

I have already written a lot why I feel reincarnation is POSSIBLE and need not write anything more. But are other things ???

Ken, It is not my intention to change what works for anyone. All I can say is what works for me. I'll be on this "journey" till the day I die. I don't want to spend it living anyone's truth but my own. It doesn't take much to make me happy now that I know what is really important in life

I liked the way you think about life from your writings, carry on with it!! Do not bother, who thinks you are prejudice or angry !!

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Kuldeep As long as you have sense of individuality and which is because of Your mind and its peculiar properties.....you would not never achieve the absolute perfect status permanently.

I sense we disagree regarding what I'm about to say but...

Then you will never achieve absolute perfect... ever. I have known many religious people who cliam to eliminate ego, individuality... etc. Every single one has either been a fraud or delusional. That doesn't mean there can't be such, I just have my doubts.

Indeed I would be suspicious of any diety, or religious leader, who would ask we do so. I suspect the ego, and individuality, is something we are expected to treasure, if we use as wisely as possible. That last caveat is crucial and wisdom is a matter of perspective. What one thinks is wise for the moment one may find less than so in the future... and the opposite is true as well. I also suspect that God knows this ands is more forgiving than our religious leaders will admit.

[jazz fork Gun]

Quote by: Ken Carman Then you will never achieve absolute perfect... ever. I have known many religious people who cliam to eliminate ego, individuality... etc. Every single one has either been a fraud or delusional. That doesn't mean there can't be such, I just have my doubts. Indeed I would be suspicious of any diety, or religious leader, who would ask we do so. I suspect the ego, and individuality, is something we are expected to treasure, if we use as wisely as possible. That last caveat is crucial and wisdom is a matter of perspective. What one thinks is wise for the moment one may find less than so in the future... and the opposite is true as well. I also suspect that God knows this ands is more forgiving than our religious leaders will admit.

The idea, Christianityly-speaking [woo making up words ^^], is that there *is* no absolute perfect, except God. It's like absolute zero: it's absolute, but as yet has not been achieved on Earth, only somewhere far away in the stars.

Assuming you believe in Evolution, ego and individuality would have aided in survival of the fittest. Individuality: if a person is extraordinarily pretty or *insert other adjective here* than they'd have a better chance at obtaining a mate. The ego -- defined here as that little thing that tells yourself that YOU are more important than THEM -- would definitely help an animal in a "savage" situation to survive.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Ken Carman I sense we disagree regarding what I'm about to say but... Then you will never achieve absolute perfect... ever. I have known many religious people who cliam to eliminate ego, individuality... etc. Every single one has either been a fraud or delusional. That doesn't mean there can't be such, I just have my doubts. Indeed I would be suspicious of any diety, or religious leader, who would ask we do so. I suspect the ego, and individuality, is something we are expected to treasure, if we use as wisely as possible. That last caveat is crucial and wisdom is a matter of perspective. What one thinks is wise for the moment one may find less than so in the future... and the opposite is true as well. I also suspect that God knows this ands is more forgiving than our religious leaders will admit.

Very true!

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: jazz fork Gun The idea, Christianityly-speaking [woo making up words ^^], is that there *is* no absolute perfect, except God. It's like absolute zero: it's absolute, but as yet has not been achieved on Earth, only somewhere far away in the stars. Assuming you believe in Evolution, ego and individuality would have aided in survival of the fittest. Individuality: if a person is extraordinarily pretty or *insert other adjective here* than they'd have a better chance at obtaining a mate. The ego -- defined here as that little thing that tells yourself that YOU are more important than THEM -- would definitely help an animal in a "savage" situation to survive.

Perhaps that's how you define ego, but

e·go /ˈigoʊ, ˈɛgoʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-goh, eg-oh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural e·gos.

1. the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

2. Psychoanalysis. the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.

3. egotism; conceit; self-importance: Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.

4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings: Your criticism wounded his ego.

5. (often initial capital letter) Philosophy. a. the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.

b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.

6. Ethnology. a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships.

(SOURCE)


...excepting #3 which really is referring to egotism, not just "ego," that is really not the definition of "ego." You should add the "tism." Ego, in itself, is not a bad thing. We all have opinions of ourselves... some bad, some good, most between the two. Without ego we would be but empty vessels. It's certainly not me thinking myself better than someone else. But to be healthy one must cut the "I suck at everything" crap that usually winds up with us beating others over the heads with our insecurities. Self-worth, not carried to extemes, is a good thing.

Unfortunately many religions and public institutions attempt to break that so they can get more thoughtless followers to do their bidding.

I'm also not sure that one has to accept the premise that God is perfect to be Christian. More perfect than us? Yes. But "perfect?" In comparison... maybe. But absolutely perfect... no. Now perhaps you can cherry pick a quote from the bible to "prove" otherwise, but that only proves some human thought this was true, not that it necessarily is. The bible, often mistakenly referred to as "the word of God," is the word of man. We wrote it. Maybe we were good stenographers... maybe not. Maybe we inserted egotism and personal opinion from time to time.