How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Michael1695]

I used to never believe in religion. I used to think it was ridiculous non sense that was for simple minded people. Now I am a believing christian. And it wasn't due to a lifetime of brain washing. Infact one day I didnt believe and the next day I did. It was like a light bulb went off in my head. Infact I was raised in a semi-practicing jewish house.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: adam10312 Well He designed and constructed every single atom of my brain, did He not? I have tried many times to believe. Honestly, I have, and hard. It is really nice to believe in all of this. Who wouldn't want to believe in a scenario where they have a roadmap that guarantees eternal paradise? EVERYONE WOULD! But there is absolutely nothing I can do. Unfortunately, I am incapable of believing in something just because I want to. I have no control over this. Free will is not an issue here, as I do not choose what I believe and what I don't. I want to have a nice God watching over me, someone to thank for life, but nothing has made me believe that.

No, I don't think he planned out and constructed every single aspect of your brain. I believe He created a universe that would bring about the living things in it. But I believe free will alows us the freedom of choice to adapt to, enhance, live peacefully within, corrupt, or intentionally alter that same universe. Thus is is the choices made by your parents, their parents, and all your ancesters and/or circumstances brought about by choices made by others that ultimately forms the cells that make up your brain. And that may be affected by both good and bad choices they made and may be affected by good and bad choices we in turn make.

Evenso, while our physical bodies are confined within specific parameters, we each also have a spiritual mind that supercedes physical confines and that makes each of us the unique special beings that we are. Here there may or may not be limits. I don't pretend to know. But I know each of us has untapped potential that is unrestrained by any natural engineering of our physical beings.

[adam10312]

Quote by: Foxfyre No, I don't think he planned out and constructed every single aspect of your brain. I believe He created a universe that would bring about the living things in it. But I believe free will alows us the freedom of choice to adapt to, enhance, live peacefully within, corrupt, or intentionally alter that same universe. Thus is is the choices made by your parents, their parents, and all your ancesters and/or circumstances brought about by choices made by others that ultimately forms the cells that make up your brain. And that may be affected by both good and bad choices they made and may be affected by good and bad choices we in turn make. Evenso, while our physical bodies are confined within specific parameters, we each also have a spiritual mind that supercedes physical confines and that makes each of us the unique special beings that we are. Here there may or may not be limits. I don't pretend to know. But I know each of us has untapped potential that is unrestrained by any natural engineering of our physical beings.

Okay but you forgot the only important part of what I said: Some people cannot CHOOSE what to believe. I cannot force myself to believe in something just because I want to, which I do. There are many like this.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: adam10312 Okay but you forgot the only important part of what I said: Some people cannot CHOOSE what to believe. I cannot force myself to believe in something just because I want to, which I do. There are many like this.

No, I did not say that you can choose what to believe. You believe what you believe. We have no choice in that. I was only objecting to your opinion that God made you a person who does not believe.

I have often offered people this challenge, however, which to the best of my knowledge has a 100% success rates for those able to do it. It goes like this:

Acknowledge to God that your are an unbeliever and give Him permission to make Himself known to you. Acknowledge that He is God and He gets to call all the shots. Put no conditions on Him. Put no time line on Him. Put up no roadblocks or theories. Simply open your mind to all possibilities and invite Him in fully knowing that you do not believe He exists. Then wait. Maybe minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years--remember you agreed to no conditions, no timeline.

I have never known anybody who did this honestly and sincerely who remained an unbeliever.

[adam10312]

Quote by: Foxfyre No, I did not say that you can choose what to believe. You believe what you believe. We have no choice in that. I was only objecting to your opinion that God made you a person who does not believe. I have often offered people this challenge, however, which to the best of my knowledge has a 100% success rates for those able to do it. It goes like this: Acknowledge to God that your are an unbeliever and give Him permission to make Himself known to you. Acknowledge that He is God and He gets to call all the shots. Put no conditions on Him. Put no time line on Him. Put up no roadblocks or theories. Simply open your mind to all possibilities and invite Him in fully knowing that you do not believe He exists. Then wait. Maybe minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years--remember you agreed to no conditions, no timeline. I have never known anybody who did this honestly and sincerely who remained an unbeliever.

I will do that.

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: Foxfyre Acknowledge to God that your are an unbeliever and give Him permission to make Himself known to you.

How to know God? That's the implicit question of the thread. Must I read Qur'an or Bible or Avesta? They all claim they're the only "roadmap to the paradise", just like every politician say they are the only way to get jobs for the future and all the stuff, just like emails chains letter telling that if you don't send this to 15 other people bad things will happen.
Well as a deist (sometime atheist, depending of the day), I say God (what is God?) created the universe and the physics laws, then he let us go our own way. The "Take a swiss knife and some matches, try not to be eaten by bears" God.
I'm a deist, but an existentialist too. So what's my opinion about organized religion? Well they come from fear: people are afraid to take their responsabilites, to have choice. It's way more easy to believe there is forces (God) creating our "destiny", the lazy man's way of living.
Global Warming? I don't care, God will fix it, or if he don't I assume it's better like this. Pfff...
Then there is a big anthropocentrism which lead organized religion to survive. "I'm not there by accident, look at me stupid barking dog I'm cleverer than thou!" All thourough the history man loved to have divine origines. According to the roman mythology, Rome was founded by the twin sons of the god Mars. They were just ashamed of the real story of their beautiful city: some shepherd settled here.
We're not made in God's image, we're just freakin' apes doing cocaine, and that's well enough.

[Michael1695]

Quote by: nerdvincent How to know God? That's the implicit question of the thread. Must I read Qur'an or Bible or Avesta? They all claim they're the only "roadmap to the paradise", just like every politician say they are the only way to get jobs for the future and all the stuff, just like emails chains letter telling that if you don't send this to 15 other people bad things will happen. Well as a deist (sometime atheist, depending of the day), I say God (what is God?) created the universe and the physics laws, then he let us go our own way. The "Take a swiss knife and some matches, try not to be eaten by bears" God. I'm a deist, but an existentialist too. So what's my opinion about organized religion? Well they come from fear: people are afraid to take their responsabilites, to have choice. It's way more easy to believe there is forces (God) creating our "destiny", the lazy man's way of living. Global Warming? I don't care, God will fix it, or if he don't I assume it's better like this. Pfff... Then there is a big anthropocentrism which lead organized religion to survive. "I'm not there by accident, look at me stupid barking dog I'm cleverer than thou!" All thourough the history man loved to have divine origines. According to the roman mythology, Rome was founded by the twin sons of the god Mars. They were just ashamed of the real story of their beautiful city: some shepherd settled here. We're not made in God's image, we're just freakin' apes doing cocaine, and that's well enough.

You know I used to think exactly the way you did for a long time. I used to think that religious people were nuts. But now I am a believer in Jesus Christ. It didn't take years of brain washing to do either. It happened in one day, within 2 hours. I made a complete 180 and became a new person. I didn't make the decision to just believe. It just happened, it was out of my control completely. Infact when it first happened I was afraid and angry. Angry because now I knew I had to make life changes and afraid because I grew up in a jewish household. But obviously not angry anymore because it was the greatest thing that could possible happen to me. I didn't need to see proof anymore. Thats what I used to say: there is no proof of god's existence. I don't need that proof anymore because I know in my heart he exists and works in our lives. You never know, you have your beliefs now about God and religion but in a day, month or year you may become a believer. You may say to yourself that it can never happen to you, that you can never become a crazy religious person. But I used to say the samething. God can reveal himself to you one day. And when he does, you will do a 180 the way I did.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Michael1695 You know I used to think exactly the way you did for a long time. I used to think that religious people were nuts. But now I am a believer in Jesus Christ. It didn't take years of brain washing to do either. It happened in one day, within 2 hours. I made a complete 180 and became a new person. I didn't make the decision to just believe. It just happened, it was out of my control completely. Infact when it first happened I was afraid and angry. Angry because now I knew I had to make life changes and afraid because I grew up in a jewish household. But obviously not angry anymore because it was the greatest thing that could possible happen to me. I didn't need to see proof anymore. Thats what I used to say: there is no proof of god's existence. I don't need that proof anymore because I know in my heart he exists and works in our lives. You never know, you have your beliefs now about God and religion but in a day, month or year you may become a believer. You may say to yourself that it can never happen to you, that you can never become a crazy religious person. But I used to say the samething. God can reveal himself to you one day. And when he does, you will do a 180 the way I did.

That's the way it happens for many, and thank you for your testimony. The only way to know the reality of God is to experience God. Those who experience him know.

Those who resist God however want to put conditions on him. They want to demand that he show himself or prove himself in a specific way, at a specific time, by command. And when he does not comply, they then feel justified in disbelieving in him. Those of us who have experienced God understand how puny we are in his presence and how silly it is to presume that we know enough or have the power to command him. Any God who could be either defined or commanded by us wouldn't be much of a God. And God is indeed an awesome God.

[Porfyra]

It happened in one day, within 2 hours. I made a complete 180 and became a new person. I didn't make the decision to just believe. It just happened, it was out of my control completely.

oh dear... one day??? two hours???? thats kinda quick to be totally changing all your views and "turning 180". don't you think you aught to have thought about it a little more? i'm not saying it's bad that you are a Christian because i am too, but seriously, you seem to have made a rather hasty decision. and about this "it was out of my control" thing. it wasn't out of your control. you were still in your own body, yes? it was your choice. no one else's. just yours.

The only way to know the reality of God is to experience God. Those who experience him know.

I've experienced him and i DON'T know. i'm having major doubts about him and he's not helping smother those doubts. i see him nowhere. i don't hear him anymore. has he forgotten me because i am so "puny"?

Those who resist God however want to put conditions on him. They want to demand that he show himself or prove himself in a specific way, at a specific time, by command. And when he does not comply, they then feel justified in disbelieving in him.

why shouldn't that be justification? if God really wants us to believe in him then why doesn't he help us along by giving us some little hint of his existence?

[Jack]

Questioning a god you believe in or being skeptical of the entire concept of gods shouldn't be disparaged by calling it resisting god. If a god cannot tolerate questioning and skepticism, he/she/it isn't much of a god. I suggest that any philosophy that demands unquestioning obedience and belief without doubt ought to be approached very skeptically and well considered before making a "leap" of faith.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Isherwood Questioning a god you believe in or being skeptical of the entire concept of gods shouldn't be disparaged by calling it resisting god. If a god cannot tolerate questioning and skepticism, he/she/it isn't much of a god. I suggest that any philosophy that demands unquestioning obedience and belief without doubt ought to be approached very skeptically and well considered before making a "leap" of faith.

Mercy, if God did not tolerate questioning, I would be a huge heap of trouble. I don't recall anybody here suggesting that God demands unquestioning obedience or belief. And belief in God requires no leap of faith. I believe He makes himself known to anybody willing to accept Him.

Those who don't believe either don't care (i.e. the truly non-religious who are bothered not in the least by what anybody believes in matters of religion). Or they are the Atheists who have developed their own religion devoted to destroying the faith of those who believe in God. Or they are the anti-religionists who must justify their unbelief by attempting discredit those who believe and/or elevate themselves as morally and rationally superior.

All of these I believe resist God by attempting to put God in a box and define what God must be in order to be believable. I believe those who choose to no longer do that, who will allow God to be God and reveal himself on his terms, will become believers.

[Porfyra]

And belief in God requires no leap of faith. I believe He makes himself known to anybody willing to accept Him.

and those who already have accepted him? why does he just stop showing himself?

All of these I believe resist God by attempting to put God in a box and define what God must be in order to be believable.

he is known to christians as undefined, omnipotent, all powerful. but how do we know that's true? he hasn't really shown himself to the world in over two thousand years. and we are STILL waiting for him to come back for us. why is it that all the hitches in Christianity can be explained by simply saying "oh God knows but we don't"??? how do we KNOW he knows? if he really does know then why doesn't he give us any answers?


*seriously doubting this whole god thing*

[Michael1695]

Quote by: Porfyra oh dear... one day??? two hours???? thats kinda quick to be totally changing all your views and "turning 180". don't you think you aught to have thought about it a little more? i'm not saying it's bad that you are a Christian because i am too, but seriously, you seem to have made a rather hasty decision. and about this "it was out of my control" thing. it wasn't out of your control. you were still in your own body, yes? it was your choice. no one else's. just yours. I've experienced him and i DON'T know. i'm having major doubts about him and he's not helping smother those doubts. i see him nowhere. i don't hear him anymore. has he forgotten me because i am so "puny"? why shouldn't that be justification? if God really wants us to believe in him then why doesn't he help us along by giving us some little hint of his existence?

All it takes is one day. Maybe you haven't experienced it so you don't know. Ofcourse I thought about it, I thought about it for a long time after it happened. I questioned what I was feeling, but I could not control how I felt. I knew God existed and I couldnt deny it. Plain and simple.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Porfyra and those who already have accepted him? why does he just stop showing himself? he is known to christians as undefined, omnipotent, all powerful. but how do we know that's true? he hasn't really shown himself to the world in over two thousand years. and we are STILL waiting for him to come back for us. why is it that all the hitches in Christianity can be explained by simply saying "oh God knows but we don't"??? how do we KNOW he knows? if he really does know then why doesn't he give us any answers? *seriously doubting this whole god thing*

How people's perceptions of God are expressed can all be pieces of the experience but all are inadequate to define the God I have experienced. He is undefinable, but He is unmistakably real. The story of Adam and Eve in the garden I think is allegory to describe the first sin of humankind: the attempt to be as God is. And I think when God is not what some demand that He be, that is used as justification for resisting or denying God.

I also think that those who once believed and now resist or deny God are still feeling inner questions within their spiritual selves. It is what draws them to threads like this, keeps them arguing the concepts and begging the question again and again. Probably, one day as Michael described, they will let their guard down and let God in on His terms.

Once they do, He is pretty difficult to disbelieve.

[Jack]

I also think that those who once believed and now resist or deny God are still feeling inner questions within their spiritual selves. It is what draws them to threads like this, keeps them arguing the concepts and begging the question again and again.

There's some wishful thinking. Has it ever occurred to theists that perhaps we're trying to counter some of the nonsensical claims made by the believers, that perhaps those of us who have come to realize the god believers offer no good reason to accept their fantasies want to explain the alternatives to a life spent searching for something that no one has offered any evidence for?

[Michael1695]

Quote by: Isherwood There's some wishful thinking. Has it ever occurred to theists that perhaps we're trying to counter some of the nonsensical claims made by the believers, that perhaps those of us who have come to realize the god believers offer no good reason to accept their fantasies want to explain the alternatives to a life spent searching for something that no one has offered any evidence for?

I don't think my beliefs are fantasies. They are very much reality. Maybe those god believers have offered a lot of reasons to believe and you just didn't listen to them. Most non believers automatically shut out those they hear preaching. Did you sit down and take time to listen, give it serious thought, and then decided that you don't believe? Or did you just ignore everything you heard? Either way, you cannot make yourself believe, but maybe God will make you believe. Maybe he will work in your life. You probably will think it sounds crazy, but if it happens to you, you will know exactly what I am talking about.

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Isherwood There's some wishful thinking. Has it ever occurred to theists that perhaps we're trying to counter some of the nonsensical claims made by the believers, that perhaps those of us who have come to realize the god believers offer no good reason to accept their fantasies want to explain the alternatives to a life spent searching for something that no one has offered any evidence for?

But if you a truly a non believer, what is it to you what anybody else believes? Why do you apparently feel so compelled to tell believers that they are delusional or dealing in fantasies? Why are you so motivated to spend so much time in a thread like this? Why do you work so hard at it?

You don't appear to be an overly hateful or spiteful person as are some who frequent threads like this.

I think it possible that you have lingering doubts as to whether your unbelief is well grounded in reality. I do know that God loves you and my belief is that He is tugging at your spiritual self. And that could account for the intense interest.

[Jack]

I think it possible that you have lingering doubts as to whether your unbelief is well grounded in reality.

Not at all. I happen to enjoy debating theism. It's one of several philosophical concepts that I find a challenging opponent. The fact it's so widely, and often so thoughtlessly, accepted as some sort of foregone conclusion in this country requires those who don't agree with it to counter that perception whenever possible.

Theists need to be reminded their position is not without its disbelievers.

[Porfyra]

The story of Adam and Eve in the garden I think is allegory to describe the first sin of humankind: the attempt to be as God is.

!!!

*eyes bulge*

the attempt to be as God is should NOT be considered a sin! doesn't the bible say over and over again that we need to try to be like Jesus?

[Foxfyre]

Quote by: Porfyra !!! *eyes bulge* the attempt to be as God is should NOT be considered a sin! doesn't the bible say over and over again that we need to try to be like Jesus?

Jesus was fully human subject to all the temptations as any human. When you cut him, he bled. Emulate his humanity, yes. Seek to be God no. The man, Jesus, did not presume authority over God and did not presume to think he knew what God knew. In my belief, Jesus was God in human form, yes, but fully human nonetheless and, as such, subject to the same human limitations we all have.