How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Ken Carman]

The second question one must ask is...

Is this "heaven" a place actually one would want to go to?

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: tmay563 I am more afraid of dying than I am of death.

Oh, yeah. I keep saying that I'm waiting for that bank safe to drop out of a 10th story window and I don't hear it coming. After that... whatever is, or isn't, well that's what it is... or isn't.

[Porfyra]

God certainly DID create the heavens and the earth.

that wasn't really even on topic....
are you just commenting on my siggy or something???

[Porfyra]

Is this "heaven" a place actually one would want to go to?

i believe it is. but not how you imagine. people always imagine sitting on clouds playing harps and eating all the food you want without ever being full for all eternity.

its not like that. heaven is about GOD. he is the light there, and all the glory and happiness is in him. thats what i believe heaven is like.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Porfyra i believe it is. but not how you imagine. people always imagine sitting on clouds playing harps and eating all the food you want without ever being full for all eternity. its not like that. heaven is about GOD. he is the light there, and all the glory and happiness is in him. thats what i believe heaven is like.

One might view that in a positive manner, or a place to worship a being who is so pure ego that it is the very definition of extremely repressive. Even with those who have knowledge, and have abilities, far beyond moi', the best relationships are one of respect and understanding that learning and coexisting is a two way street... no matter how superior one is to someone else. Those relationships where the superior one expects me to worship them without such an understanding, such a give, take and grow together... are the worst and the most hellish.

Part of this discussion, I suspect, revolves around the concept of perfection. I don't believe in absolute perfection. In fact the closest to perfection any being gets is when they are most open to learn and grow: a constant, never ending process. This would include God, IMO. If there is an "evil one," a counterpart, a "Satan," it would be someone who considers themselves perfect and expects all to grovel before him/her/it. I suspect you disagree and do believe in it.

[Porfyra]

yes, i disagree. the reason we worship God is because he is so giving to us and constantly deals with our mess ups. least thats why i do, anyways.

i believe God is the only perfect one. people cannot achieve perfection.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Porfyra yes, i disagree. the reason we worship God is because he is so giving to us and constantly deals with our mess ups. least thats why i do, anyways. i believe God is the only perfect one. people cannot achieve perfection.

Yes, I understand why people worship God in this sense, in fact I don't disagree with that God concept in your first para.

But, obviously, we disagree when it comes to perfection.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: Porfyra . people cannot achieve perfection.

"to ere is human" is not acceptable

Porfyra is this not an excuse to accept failure rather than a spur to aim beyond the perfect?

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel "to ere is human" is not acceptable Porfyra is this not an excuse to accept failure rather than a spur to aim beyond the perfect?

How does one aim "beyond perfect?"

I do believe one can accept the premise that "error," or whatever you wish to call it, always exists and still push ourselves onwards: perfecting ourselves. Not to bounce into cliche' too much, but we are, hopefully, smart enough to walk and chew our way unto perfection at the same time. Plus, isn't it sometimes the case that when we think we are pushing towards perfection we find we are mistaken?

I really do believe it is, and always is, a learning process. In fact, I believe what happened to Jesus was a learning process for the divine. If God was perfect there would have been no need to "send his son." God's methods, and the way God was handling us, would have been perfect so "the Son" would have been, at best, unnecessary. Jesus bespeaks a change of tactics: a part of the learning curve as applied to a diety as well as to humanity.

[Porfyra]

*wipes brow* now you guys are getting really deep

Porfyra is this not an excuse to accept failure rather than a spur to aim beyond the perfect?

God is perfect. no one else is, especially not humans. of course we will fail, but that doesn't mean we cannot aim for the goal of bettering ourselves.

But, obviously, we disagree when it comes to perfection.

alright, i suppose we shall agree to disagree?



[QUOUTE]How does one aim "beyond perfect?"[/quote]

to do that is impossible. sure, one can aim for it all they want, but they will never achieve it. the definition of perfect:
excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement
-dictionary.com

and only God can meet that standard.
but lets go deeper. whats the opposite of perfection? sin.
dictionary.com:
any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time.

sin to waste time. wow... have any of you ever met someone so perfect that everything they did was kind and they never wasted time or thought jealous thoughts?

let's go even deeper:
Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

the thing i want to focus on here is "evil desires". thats a sin of the mind. so even just thinking something nasty is a sin. no human could achieve that.

[QUOTE[
I really do believe it is, and always is, a learning process. In fact, I believe what happened to Jesus was a learning process for the divine. If God was perfect there would have been no need to "send his son." God's methods, and the way God was handling us, would have been perfect so "the Son" would have been, at best, unnecessary.[/quote]

i can't believe i am saying this, but i believe it WAS unnecessary. i believe God designed the whole thing so as to wake us up and show us his glory. but if there is anything in the bible that contradicts this, please point it out to me.

[Winter wind]

My stance on heaven is simply "i don't know but it sounds nice."

But if someone call me if they find out :p

Until then I think Heaven is beyond our comprehension. But maybe there is such a thing as reincarnation (it has happened in Christianity, ie Jesus is supposed to return to earth as a reincarnation)

Westboro Baptist Church of Kansas or the one from ontario?

The one that famous for saying things like "thank God for 9/11; thank God for dead solders." Thats the Kansas one, right?

don't feed the troll.

Which one?

[Porfyra]

The one that famous for saying things like "thank God for 9/11; thank God for dead solders." Thats the Kansas one, right?

yeah thats the one in Kansas. i think they are christians that have been led astray (or they just aren't christians at all). what they are doing is wrong and it's even more sick that they "do it in the name of God".

[Winter wind]

yeah thats the one in Kansas. i think they are christians that have been led astray (or they just aren't christians at all). what they are doing is wrong and it's even more sick that they "do it in the name of God".

My point is that Christians can ask for forgiveness in earnest yet still be horrible people.

[Jack]

i think they are christians that have been led astray (or they just aren't christians at all)

This is called the "No true Scotsman" argument. No true Scotsman is the name for a fallacy of equivocation and question begging coined by Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking – or do I sincerely want to be right?.

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Press and Journal and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Press and Journal again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."

The inbreds at Westboro cite the Bible to justify all their actions. They are literalists, but that doesn't disqualify them from being Christians, does it?

[Foxfyre]

I have to gently agree that this is a suitable debate topic for the religious forum and, via the question for the attached poll, it does invite diverse opinion on the topic.

The fact that the thread author started the discussion with his own theology should not disqualify it as a suitable debate topic.

Just my two cents worth. World peace does not hinge on whether this topic is or is not suitable.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Porfyra alright, i suppose we shall agree to disagree?

Yes, sounds like a good plan.,

to do that is impossible. sure, one can aim for it all they want, but they will never achieve it. the definition of perfect: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement -dictionary.com

This was pretty much my point.

and only God can meet that standard. but lets go deeper. whats the opposite of perfection?

We do disagree there, though I would admit that God may be so close to perfect we may be unable to see the distance between God and perfection.

i can't believe i am saying this, but i believe it WAS unnecessary. i believe God designed the whole thing so as to wake us up and show us his glory. but if there is anything in the bible that contradicts this, please point it out to me.

Perhaps. Or perhaps it was more "necessary" for God. And, while that may have been part of the purpose I'm still not quite sure how well it all worked out. Does the bible contradict it? I suspect not, but I also suspect it neither confirms the hypothesis.

[jazz fork Gun]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel Porfyra do you consider that a sinner who has committed the most heinious, debauched and inhuman sin, would be welcomed by god if the repent in the name of the christ? And thus are freed of any justice by society?

They need to seek forgiveness after their act.
Thus suicide is considered sin because it is murder and all the worse because they cannot seek forgiveness if they're dead....

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel so by your views a suicide bomber who prior to his anihilation of say a kindergarten, had great repentence and belief just has his finger eased pressure from the trigger before he obliterated a classroom of inocents and himself, he would be welcomed into your heaven?

If he had really sought forgiveness, would he be blowing up kindergartens? Yeah I didn't think so....
Or he's mental.
Plus suicide bomber = dies in the act... so see above...

[Winter wind]

so by your views a suicide bomber who prior to his anihilation of say a kindergarten, had great repentence and belief just has his finger eased pressure from the trigger before he obliterated a classroom of inocents and himself, he would be welcomed into your heaven?

Plus if he was really sorry (if he somehow survived the event), wouldn't it be most likely he wouldn't do it again?

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Winter wind Plus if he was really sorry (if he somehow survived the event), wouldn't it be most likely he wouldn't do it again?

He'd either be in jail, or get the chair.

To me being truly sorry would take more time than a suicide bomber would have. You're talking fractions of seconds. Now Catholic's don't believe the soul leaves the body immediately, so it's possible if you had some consciousness you could be sorry.

Truly being sorry is all it takes, but truly is the main word here, and God knows when you aren't.

[Laurie]

Maryjane is so right; One does not have to be religious in order to be spiritual!

Quote by: XFRODOBAGGINSX I can use the bible to prove the bible, but I will wait. ...It was written by God. It has no errors or contradictions.

Good grief man! What bible are you reading from then?

A few of the myriad contradictions below:

WHOLESOME FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS

"For I [Jesus] am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Matthew 10:35-6)

"If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

"Honour thy father and thy mother..." (Matthew 19:19)

"And call no man your father upon earth..." (Mathew 23:9)


THE PRINCE OF PEACE
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I [Jesus] tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three." (Luke 12:51-2)

"Think not that I [Jesus] have come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

"...for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." (Matthew 26:52)

"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36)

And to think that these ravings are supposed to be the sayings of one some call the prince of peace.

THE GENEALOGY OF JESUS
"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary...." (Matthew 1:16)

"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being ... the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli..."(Luke 3:23)
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PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
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GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
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PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
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ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

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Num.12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth."

Num.31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."
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Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen. 26:2; and John 14:9
God CAN be seen:

"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23)

"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)

"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)
God CANNOT be seen:

"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)

"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)


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"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer.

13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)

"For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)

"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9)

"God is love." (1 John 4:16)

Most people are willing to listen to reasonable debate on theology, there can be much said for both sides of the coin, but when it comes to blatant disregard for intelligent logic, and blind reasoning in the face of the true facts, you will find that you have lost the battle before you have started.

Here are some good links that you might like to analyze before making such sweeping statements.

I don't adhere to your faith, nor any other, but I respect your devotion to it, an am willing to listen to you when it sounds logical and reasoned.

Peace

The Myth of the Historical Veracity of Jesus

Did Jesus Exist -- The Probing Mind

The Myth of the Historical Veracity of Jesus