How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[dingette]

Quote by: Porfyra you know, there is really no way to PROVE God (as i have recently discovered in my horrid attempt to do so with miracles) ... God's there, plain as day, but it's ya'lls choice to believe in him or not. and i hate to say it but if you don't believe, you've no idea what you are missing out on. but i have to say, it's difficult to argue all those prophecies that came true, isn't it?

I haven't read the entire thread; I've seen the Atheist vs. Christian done to death over the years, but never seen anyone refer to prophecies eventuating as proof of God's existence or the Bible not being a work of pure fiction. Could you quote an example please - not an interpretation of a passage which has been manipulated to, "fit" with a particular event in much the same way as Nostradamus's garbled, "prophecies" are made to fit with certain events.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: dingette I haven't read the entire thread; I've seen the Atheist vs. Christian done to death over the years, but never seen anyone refer to prophecies eventuating as proof of God's existence or the Bible not being a work of pure fiction. Could you quote an example please - not an interpretation of a passage which has been manipulated to, "fit" with a particular event in much the same way as Nostradamus's garbled, "prophecies" are made to fit with certain events.

Apparently the Jews didn't see the prophesies as being fulfilled. The Messiah had to meet certain criteria, and apparently Jesus didn't meet them all the first go around, but I guess the second coming is when the rest will be fulfilled is what I've been told.

[Winter wind]

I have not read anything other then the first post.

First off, if the first post is a joke, it is both funny and well timed, but I don't think it is a joke. The vast majority of the posters are absolutely set in their beliefs. Either as an Atheist or a Christian. You are definitely going to need a more subtle means of converting people to have any effect on this site.

My response to all the quotes is: God made us this way. Sinner or not this is the way he made us. Since He made us lesser then Him, I think He will be much more forgiving of us then you made out. He can not condemn someone who has tried to do right as much as possible, not without sounding...dumb. I'm more of the forgiving God person.

I also object to the poll. Not only is it a push poll, it makes me feel like I'm betting on a horse.

Also, people aren't singularly sinners. If you want to think of morality as a spectrum, no person will be perfectly good or evil. By eating the fruit, our spectrum went from a single dot to a long and complex line. To call us all sinners would only be true if you say all humans aren't perfect. We aren't vile. Even God can't think to little of us as he gave his son for us.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Winter wind Also, people aren't singularly sinners. If you want to think of morality as a spectrum, no person will be perfectly good or evil. By eating the fruit, our spectrum went from a single dot to a long and complex line. To call us all sinners would only be true if you say all humans aren't perfect. We aren't vile. Even God can't think to little of us as he gave his son for us.

This is a lot how I believe. I have my own idea of it all. I look at God as the Father, and we the children, and He loves us. That's it. I don't look to the bible, or church to honor Him, I look to myself. I also believe that we can and will sin, but some more so than others. God knows this and makes adjustments for it.

If I follow religion it makes me believe less. That's how it works for me.

[Winter wind]

Ironically, I have grown to see God more as a motherly type. I donno if this is good or bad, but God seems to fit best in my messed up head as a very motherly woman, who's most frequent response to all my questions is "well, what do you think the answer is?"
Sorry, it's late and I'm a little weird right now.

[Porfyra]

thats not what i see God as... he's not this big soft and cuddly teddy bear that is always telling you to look to yourself. sure, he has the greatest love to give you in the world, but he is also holy. so holy that our sin is vile to him (to contradict what winterwind said) and because of that sin we cannot go to heaven unless we ask his forgiveness and believe that his son was Jesus christ and that he died on the cross for our sins.

[Winter wind]

yet that "so holy" is why I wonder about His concept of vile. The holiest people I've met aren't the ones who look down on sinners as if they were something beneath them. They are the ones who try to understand. The ones willing to give up time and sometimes lives to help them. I find it hard to believe that being holy means you look down on those who aren't holy.

[Porfyra]

but you seem to have missed the point of holy. people cannot be holy. we are sinners. holy is the opposite of sin. God doesn't look down on us; he loves us. but because of our sin he cannot be with us. thats why he sent his son to die- so that we can someday be with him.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: Porfyra but you seem to have missed the point of holy. people cannot be holy. we are sinners. holy is the opposite of sin. God doesn't look down on us; he loves us. but because of our sin he cannot be with us. thats why he sent his son to die- so that we can someday be with him.

Porfyra do you mix knowingly with sinners?

do you accept you are a sinner

or do you feel that all sinners should be ready for hell and the damnation they deserve?

do you feel your god will not be loving towards who do not recognise its existance and even go so far as to actively rebuke its existance and also consider you untrustworthy because you beleive in myths and fairy stories?

[Winter wind]

but you seem to have missed the point of holy. people cannot be holy. we are sinners. holy is the opposite of sin. God doesn't look down on us; he loves us. but because of our sin he cannot be with us. thats why he sent his son to die- so that we can someday be with him.

certain people must have some degree of holiness to them (pope?) otherwise our concept of holy would not exist. I object to the idea the God cannot be with us simply because God can do what ever He wants. Maybe you meant to say we can't be with God because of your weakness or that God can be with us and he chooses not to.

[dingette]

I find it...confusing...that some would see the blood thirsty creature whom would drown an entire planet...the good...the bad...the newborn and innocent in a fit of anger as, "cuddly" or, "motherly"; perhaps you've created your own version of God..."The Microsoft God" - much in the same way as upgrading Windows to make it more user-friendly?

Of course, everyone's entitled to their own beliefs, even a brand spanking new God who bares only a passing resemblance to the mass murdering God of the Bible, but I was under the impression that this thread concerned the God as He is described in the Bible.

[Porfyra]

Porfyra do you mix knowingly with sinners? do you accept you are a sinner or do you feel that all sinners should be ready for hell and the damnation they deserve? do you feel your god will not be loving towards who do not recognise its existance and even go so far as to actively rebuke its existance and also consider you untrustworthy because you beleive in myths and fairy stories?

yes, i accept i am a sinner- everyone is. yes i believe all sinners should be ready for hell and the damnation they deserve UNLESS they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died for their sins. i believe that God loves everyone whether they love him back or not.

certain people must have some degree of holiness to them (pope?) otherwise our concept of holy would not exist. I object to the idea the God cannot be with us simply because God can do what ever He wants. Maybe you meant to say we can't be with God because of your weakness or that God can be with us and he chooses not to.

nope- not one single person that has walked this earth except Jesus is holy. least of all the pope. and please don't put words in my mouth, that is not what i meant. i meant exactly what i said earlier.

I find it...confusing...that some would see the blood thirsty creature whom would drown an entire planet...the good...the bad...the newborn and innocent in a fit of anger as, "cuddly" or, "motherly"; perhaps you've created your own version of God..."The Microsoft God" - much in the same way as upgrading Windows to make it more user-friendly? Of course, everyone's entitled to their own beliefs, even a brand spanking new God who bares only a passing resemblance to the mass murdering God of the Bible, but I was under the impression that this thread concerned the God as He is described in the Bible.

God is not blood thirsty. he is just. think about it- the innocent that died in the flood (lets say the babies and very young children) they went to heaven. simple. it wasn't a punishment for them. lets see- sinful world or heaven.. hmmm i wonder what i would pick.

this IS about God in the Bible. i'm not introducing any new ideas about God- its all right there in the bible. his mercy, his love, etc.

[Jack]

its all right there in the bible. his mercy, his love, etc.

Hardly the qualities I'd associate with a god who says;

Leviticus 26:27-39
26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;

26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

26:31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savor of your sweet odors.

26:32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.

26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.

26:35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.

26:36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.

26:37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.

26:38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

26:39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

This sounds more like the ravings of a sociopath than the comforting words of a loving god.

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: Porfyra the innocent that died in the flood (lets say the babies and very young children) they went to heaven.

Off topic, but was there any flood?

[jazz fork Gun]

Quote by: XFRODOBAGGINSX You must be living on mars if you think that our country wasn't build on Christianity. History proves you wrong. You have been brainwashed. Do your research.

*Sigh* I think you've been brainwashed. The original people who supposedly walked over here from Russia and Asia came because... they felt like it.
And then there were the vikings who... wow they were sailing and happened to find us.
And then there was Columbus who... was looking for $$.
The Brits who came here didn't want religious freedom they wanted religious dominance.
The Spanish who came here *did* bring along missionaries, but one of the biggest jobs for women in St. Augustine, FL [the last port a ship would see before crossing the ocean] was prostitution. Oh, those good Catholic Spaniards...
And the Revolutionary War! Only the thing that actually DID found our country. That was about money and politics and dominance issues. No religion.

So no, America was not built on religion.

*No offence to the Spanish, really =P

[jazz fork Gun]

Quote by: Winter wind certain people must have some degree of holiness to them (pope?) otherwise our concept of holy would not exist. I object to the idea the God cannot be with us simply because God can do what ever He wants. Maybe you meant to say we can't be with God because of your weakness or that God can be with us and he chooses not to.

These specific degrees of holiness are man-made. The Bible says "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [italics, bold, underline mine]. The Bible doesn't say we had to set up a Papacy! [Plus aren't you Lutheran? so the Pope would be basically irrelevant to you?] These man-made ranks mean nothing when you take, the degree of sinner they are. Remember the scene in V for Vendetta? Remember that Bishop? Or remember the Bishop that did the exact same thing in real life and it was on the news recently? ...or all of them? Not like instances of corruption are rare. One could be a hobo living on the streets of NYC but have never cursed or stolen or thought dirty thoughts in one's life, or one could be an adulterous priest who steals money from the church. There's no higher degree of holiness there.

Quote by: Porfyra God is not blood thirsty. he is just. think about it- the innocent that died in the flood (lets say the babies and very young children) they went to heaven. simple. it wasn't a punishment for them. lets see- sinful world or heaven.. hmmm i wonder what i would pick.

Did they go to Heaven? Does the Bible say so? Then where did the idea that Man is inherently evil come from? That was a pretty popular notion in its heyday and it was believed that the moment one was born they were destined for Hell.

Were you baptised? What does that symbolize? Water, in literature, religion, and even subconscious real-life actions, symbolizes CLEANSING. Why would we baptise 3-month-old babies, cleansing them of their sins, if they were destined for Heaven and had nothing to be cleansed of? And if it's a cleansing of future sins, then why do we do it again at confirmation? Hmm, seems like regarding the innocent, either you're wrong or the rituals are... or both.

[Winter wind]

nope- not one single person that has walked this earth except Jesus is holy. least of all the pope. and please don't put words in my mouth, that is not what i meant. i meant exactly what i said earlier.

No, No. Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I was just pointing out a logical error in your last argument. God can do what ever He wants, so it is impossible that he can't be with us regardless of our sin. I was just making sure it wasn't a typo what you said, or a mixed up word or something. Like he chooses not to be with us.
If not, then please explain the discrepancy.

Hardly the qualities I'd associate with a god who says;

Leviticus is the absolute bane of my Christian existence, hence my stance on interpreting the Bible (see the other topic for details).

These specific degrees of holiness are man-made. The Bible says "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [italics, bold, underline mine]. The Bible doesn't say we had to set up a Papacy! [Plus aren't you Lutheran? so the Pope would be basically irrelevant to you?] These man-made ranks mean nothing when you take, the degree of sinner they are. Remember the scene in V for Vendetta? Remember that Bishop? Or remember the Bishop that did the exact same thing in real life and it was on the news recently? ...or all of them? Not like instances of corruption are rare. One could be a hobo living on the streets of NYC but have never cursed or stolen or thought dirty thoughts in one's life, or one could be an adulterous priest who steals money from the church. There's no higher degree of holiness there.

Yes your right. Mostly.
I am Lutheran so I have little faith in the Pope's overall power. I was just hoping Porfyra was Catholic so I could get some leverage. I was very wrong.
Holy is a human word and has a few interpretations. So if we take Jazz's definition, then my last argument was nil.

nope- not one single person that has walked this earth except Jesus is holy

Not Moses or any Prophets?
Anywho, if Jesus was holy, then why did he not view humans with disgust. He stuck around with the most "vile" of them (tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers) and did not put them down for being "vile." I don't think he viewed what He made as disgusting.
wouldn't it make more sense that He is exasperated by our stupidity (because that is what evil is half the time) but loves us in the end (he does go through a lot to keep us from falling to pieces).

[Porfyra]

Hardly the qualities I'd associate with a god who says;

BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Mark 15;

^^^That's the ultimate love . it's beautiful....

Off topic, but was there any flood?

yes.

Were you baptised? What does that symbolize? Water, in literature, religion, and even subconscious real-life actions, symbolizes CLEANSING. Why would we baptise 3-month-old babies, cleansing them of their sins, if they were destined for Heaven and had nothing to be cleansed of? And if it's a cleansing of future sins, then why do we do it again at confirmation? Hmm, seems like regarding the innocent, either you're wrong or the rituals are... or both.

yes i was baptized but baptism saves no one. believing is the only way, and baptism is just a way to show the world you've come clean. babies don't need to be baptized. if they're to young to sin consciously then they're also too young to believe. i don't remember where the verse is about it- I'll see if i can find it, but God is a just God and wouldn't let the innocent go to hell.

No, No. Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I was just pointing out a logical error in your last argument. God can do what ever He wants, so it is impossible that he can't be with us regardless of our sin. I was just making sure it wasn't a typo what you said, or a mixed up word or something. Like he chooses not to be with us. If not, then please explain the discrepancy.

its fine. i see your point of view but idk if i agree... i need to look into this as well.

These specific degrees of holiness are man-made. The Bible says "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [italics, bold, underline mine]. The Bible doesn't say we had to set up a Papacy! [Plus aren't you Lutheran? so the Pope would be basically irrelevant to you?] These man-made ranks mean nothing when you take, the degree of sinner they are. Remember the scene in V for Vendetta? Remember that Bishop? Or remember the Bishop that did the exact same thing in real life and it was on the news recently? ...or all of them? Not like instances of corruption are rare. One could be a hobo living on the streets of NYC but have never cursed or stolen or thought dirty thoughts in one's life, or one could be an adulterous priest who steals money from the church. There's no higher degree of holiness there.

only God can reach holiness. you seem to understand this mostly, and thanks for using that verse, i was actually going to do that. : )

Yes your right. Mostly. I am Lutheran so I have little faith in the Pope's overall power. I was just hoping Porfyra was Catholic so I could get some leverage. I was very wrong. Holy is a human word and has a few interpretations. So if we take Jazz's definition, then my last argument was nil.

yes, you were very wrong. im far from catholic.

Not Moses or any Prophets? Anywho, if Jesus was holy, then why did he not view humans with disgust. He stuck around with the most "vile" of them (tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers) and did not put them down for being "vile." I don't think he viewed what He made as disgusting. wouldn't it make more sense that He is exasperated by our stupidity (because that is what evil is half the time) but loves us in the end (he does go through a lot to keep us from falling to pieces).

no not moses or any prophets. only God.
he doesn't think we are vile- its our sin that disgusts him. and yes, he does alot to keep us from falling apart and thank goodness for that lol

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: Porfyra yes, i accept i am a sinner- everyone is. yes i believe all sinners should be ready for hell and the damnation they deserve UNLESS they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died for their sins. i believe that God loves everyone whether they love him back or not.

Porfyra do you consider that a sinner who has committed the most heinious, debauched and inhuman sin, would be welcomed by god if the repent in the name of the christ? And thus are freed of any justice by society?

[Porfyra]

yes i believe they would be welcomed by God if they repented and really believed in God. but i do not believe that they should be free of justice by society.

so, for example, if some guy raped a girl and killed her, then i believe he would need to face the punishment the authorities on earth were going to give him, but he would be forgiven by God if he repented and if he believe in Jesus Christ then he would go to heaven.